Bitcoin Forum

I see some people talk about mixing bitcoins...why dont people just swap bitcoin? EG, Say I have 10BTC and I'll swap one of mine, for one of yours. I give you a wallet address to pay, you pay it, and provide a new address for your coin, which I then pay with one of mine.
Is that not a good way to make your bitcoins a little harder to track?

Swapping it doesn't really work because both people just literally swap the same amount, and nothing really changes. It can still be tracked and the swap would still presumably go to the same address, making it more obvious that the person still has "x" amount of Bitcoin, just with a different string. Mixers can send smaller amount over a period of time to a different address while also mixing up the strings and making it harder to follow, and it can make your address look like a completely different one.

Hypothetically swapping would work, but it's harder to do that than it sounds.

Why will I ever want to swap my bitcoin with anyone, what will it profit me since we would send to each other the same price, I don't think that is a very good idea

Why do people use mixers?

Why should I trust you?  How do I know for certain that you'll send to my address?


Nope.  If anyone asks me where I got that bitcoin, I'll tell them I got it from you.  Not very difficult to track at all.


In most cases, they do it for a false sense of anonymity.

Will you accept Bitcoin from just some random person? This could be some money launderer or someone who just murdered someone for payment or some paedophile network hiding their tracks. I

know I will not do that, so for that reason I send all received coins through a mixer services, just to rinse them a bit and making sure I am not pulled into something I did not do. I would much rather

mix my coins than sending it to some unknown person, with shady intentions.  ::)

Swapping BTC is not good idea  because you are exchanging same thing and there is no benefit. instead of swapping bitcoin to bitcoin exchange with fiat currency  or any goods etc  will be the best options :)

Yeah, plus more if you are exchanging with people who turned out to be deceptive. You may be losing the 10 BTC. bitcoin exchange with fiat I think the same, but you should choose a trusted website.

swapping can be done by multisig.. and should never be done by just putting funds into a standard address of a stranger(who you cant slap with a wet fish if they run off)

each person creates a priv/pub keypair and only sends each other the public keys to generate a new multisig public key.
(keep the privkeys a secret, obviously)
they both put funds into the multisig

and then both create the transaction to "spend" the inputs.. and ofcourse both sign it..

obviously if they both dont sign it they both cant spend it.
if you dont see your getting the amount you want. then ofcourse you dont sign it. meaning the other person cant get what they want either.
by both signing it means they both agree to the transaction.

but with that said. its stupid to think swapping/mixing coins needs to be complex or that swapping/mixing coins makes you invisible/anonymous

No. Instead of trusting a faceless organization, you would now be trusting a single individual who would get firsthand knowledge of your Bitcoin address. If you know that individually personally, then the track will be ever so closer to you. Otherwise, you just trusted someone who doesn't owe a shred of loyalty to you with information that would lead back to you.

If you want to thoroughly mix your coins, then repeatedly swap them for altcoins (with not-so-volatile values) under multiple accounts and using different IP addresses, transferring them across multiple wallets during the process. That will require a lot of effort, and your balance will take a hit from multiple fees incurred, but you'll obfuscate your tracks to a degree that it would become obnoxious to follow it. You can even throw some into a mixer along the way since that's what they're for. Whether mixing coins itself is justifiable, I leave to your own rationalizations and delusions.

Then these bitcoin will still be able to track that you swapped between two or more users, but what bitcoin mixers do is that they have many inputs from lots of users and they swap the bitcoins but in this case their bitcoins is harder to track. I'm not a specialist on this but I think more actions are made in background before you receive the mixed coins.

Congratulations!!! You invented the coinjoin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoinJoin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoinJoin)

Thanks for the information! Someone I know said they wanted to mix some coins and I was contemplating just swapping some of my cold storage btc with him.

I dont see the point in it

There is no total anonymity to Bitcoin, it's like if you walk across a beach backwards with a stick hiding the footsteps, they are still there, you have just blurred them some, mixing adds other footprints, so now instead of just one set there are many, makes it much harder to track, but the footsteps are still there.

Take a banknote, unless it is brand new from the mint, do you think no crime or nefarious activity has been associated with it? Even if it is new, look a layer up to the Politicians... Crimes and wrongdoings are everywhere, you simply cannot get away from it.

Mixing adds a false sense of security.

Of course, if you have tainted coins you want to get rid of, send them to 19hyum5jc4QpX9zPaYELtEys4umaL4aKhF  8)

You can check out the nice inforgraphic that bitmixer has on their website:

https://bitmixer.io/how.html

It clearly shows why you use a mixer instead of just straight swapping coins.

I'm not a specialist but I think the action is created in the background before you accept a coin mix . because we know that bitcoin This still will be able to track that you bertuka between two or more users . but what is done by bitcoin mixer is that they have feedback from many users and they swap Bitcoins , in this case Bitcoins they are more difficult to trace .

You dont make profit with mixing either.Mixing is done to keep coins untraceable.
Swapping is risky as you act on the trust of other party.Mixer usually use mult-addresses to mix coins making it harder to trace.Bitcoin swapping,on the other hand,is exchange of coins between two addresses that doesn't makes it untraceable

because there is no anonymity in that, you both will know where the coins have gone and can easily link it to the other person. and any of you can be a shady person, so the trust between two individuals can never be created unless you two know each other very well and have the trust before doing the exchange.

but if you are satisfies with the mixing that a simple swap provides you, then i guess it is safe to say you don't even need to mix your coins ever.

swapping bitcoin just like the method you're explained above is such wasting time and effort,and keep in mind that you can't trust anyone in bitcoin world so it's definitely not more useful than mixing while you could've done it with ease

your tutorial is too complicated while mixing just using the same scheme as this,they'll receive your bitcoin and then send you an exact amount of bitcoin to your address so why make it more complicated?

there are mixers out there for a reason if it was that easy to just swap then no mixer could profit.

Actually i think that btc mixing IS swapping of bitcoins.There`s no difference,i guess...

Why are you asking this question OP?

I`m not sure how the mixing process works.

the main purpose of mixing is to cut the "link" between the old coins and the new coins. if you have ever checked one of the bitcoin txs that a mixer like bitmixer sends you can see that it is not possible to find the source.
so a simple swap can never be the same way because it is only one address between the two with one single tx of same size which can be easily tracked.

the question is what you are a looking for to achieve by doing this?

- if it is a simple way to make it harder for other people to find out about your stash and how you use it then there are so may simpler ways. a simple dividing between multiple addresses of your own and using each address once makes it harder for regular users and it is enough privacy for most people. or for more you can send it to and exchange site and then withdraw especially for small amounts like 1BTC your coins will be mixed easily and cheap

- but if you are looking for a better privacy and it is more important for you then you should only use a trusted mixing service and mix your coins. but this is not usually the level of privacy that regular users are looking for.

Do not forget the change address problem. If you want bitcoin that can not be traced to you and do not just want to swap your bitcoin for someone else's trusting a mixer you can use Monero to anonymize (https://bitcoinnewsmagazine.com/how-to-use-monero-to-anonymize-bitcoin/) your bitcoin. Even Peter Todd recommended this method.

yeah but it all comes down to trust aas well do you trust the person enough and sure eventally it  would be easy tracked if you used the same people.

Swapping may he difficult because you have to trust the person you swap with, they may run off with the bitcoins you send them, a mixer is this but on a huge scale with tiny amounts, so swapping is the same but it can very easily be tracked. It's best to use a mixer but swapping would work if you had several people.

Isn't the problem here, "they both put funds into the multisig"

Bob puts his 1BTC into the multisig.
Alice claims she is putting it in but doesn't.
Now Alice can hold the Bob's 1BTC ransom, she could demand 50% or she won't sign.

So, how can you guarantee the atomicity of the "they both put funds into the multisig"? or that Bob can remove his coins if Alice doesn't transfer.

same can be said for any escrow service
same can be said for any swap/mixer service
same can be said for any thing really.

this is why LN(a multisig tool) is meant to be the solution to the problems described, although its yet to be seen.
LN's solution is that if funds are not signed for and broadcast to the network within a certain period.. the funds can be send back to sender automatically because a setup transaction is presigned to allow that.

as i said yet to be seen to know if LN is as infallible as advertised. but if so LN will do the things people want in regards to mixing/swapping