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Title: Bitfinex plans to socialise losses, is theft. Theft is an imprisonable offence. Post by: MatTheCat on August 06, 2016, 11:21:56 PM From the Financial Times: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c3b9f89c-5b18-11e6-9f70-badea1b336d4.html#axzz4Gb3ntjOL
Quote For the legal profession, however, the pivotal factor rests on whether the title of the lost bitcoin belonged to the customers or to Bitfinex when it was stolen. A secondary condition that must also be determined is whether the bitcoins were commingled or segregated when the theft occurred. The best legal precedent to date is that of the liquidation of Mt. Gox in February 2014 when nearly 850,000 bitcoins worth some $450m were lost. In that case the company was held accountable for losses because title had been transferred to the exchange and funds had been commingled. Victims are still pursuing their claims over the remaining estate. Lawyers say the situation in Hong Kong may be different. “With Bitfinex, user wallets were segregated. As a result, the relationship was seemingly more custodial in nature. In other words, the hack resulted in the theft of users’ property,” one lawyer specialising in cryptocurrencies told the Financial Times. If that is the case, the theft will have resembled a thief stealing contents from users’ safety deposit boxes rather than the contents of their bank accounts, meaning victims may not have legal rights over Bitfinex’s remaining assets and will have to bear the losses directly. “This matters because in the bank account situation, losses are necessarily socialised whereas socialising deposit box losses would be theft,” the lawyer added. I understand that many who had only BTC on Finex will be relieved to hear that they are only going to take a 36.5% haircut, but after having had my Kraken account wiped out (no socialised losses there), I really don't get why my USD on Finex should then go towards bailing victims of the theft out. BTC in an online got wallet and money in the bank are two seperate things. I am not an expert in the law, but what Bitfinex are planning to do, is theft. They are resorting to this, in a desperate attempt to stay afloat. If this means that some of these cunts end up in jail however, then it will be a good thing. Lodge criminal complaints against Bitfinex with Hong Kong police, here: https://secure1.info.gov.hk/police/eforms/report_cyber_crime_en.php Title: Re: Bitfinex plans to socialise losses, is theft. Theft is an imprisonable offence. Post by: bitfinexvictim on August 06, 2016, 11:35:28 PM I am having over 1m on Bitfinex - all USD. What can we do to stop them? It doesn't feel right that they can take our USD and purchase BTC with it to compensate other customers. These amateurs shouldn't be the one making this call. It should be a court. Which legal actions can we initiate?
Title: Re: Bitfinex plans to socialise losses, is theft. Theft is an imprisonable offence. Post by: MatTheCat on August 06, 2016, 11:48:02 PM I am having over 1m on Bitfinex - all USD. What can we do to stop them? It doesn't feel right that they can take our USD and purchase BTC with it to compensate other customers. These amateurs shouldn't be the one making this call. It should be a court. Which legal actions can we initiate? If u have that sort of money, you can afford to go straight to lawyer and litigate. Chumps like me will have to rely on government financial authority bodies, and/or class action lawsuits..... .....but actually, if what Bitfinex are doing is theft, then theft is a crime, and that could involve the police............ International nature of the business makes things complicated though. Ultimately, I am at as much of a loss (in terms of how to approach this situation) as you are....guess I shall find out soon enough what channels are available to me though. EDIT: You may as well file a cyber crime complaint with Hong Kong police here: https://secure1.info.gov.hk/police/eforms/report_cyber_crime_en.php The more of these complaints that the police get, the better. Bitfinex claim that they are working with law enforcement agencies, but if anyone believes a thing that Bitfinex tells them then they have a hole in the head. A big pile of complaints about Bitfinex landing with police departments around the world will make sure that the police become aware of the Bitfinex incident....and if a a couple years down the line, a few Bitfinex guys end up doing time for an 'inside job', it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. Title: Re: Bitfinex plans to socialise losses, is theft. Theft is an imprisonable offence. Post by: bitfinexvictim on August 07, 2016, 12:45:50 AM I had all of my USD lended out. So at this point it's likely that the 36% haircut amount all assets is not that much worse than haircut among BTC holders. After I guess I lended out my USD mostly to BTC backers, who have lost most of their collateral and will never able to pay me back.
So a 36% haircut + shares in bitfinex might be the best solution after all. Incompetente goverment agencies will just make things worse I guess. Title: Re: Bitfinex plans to socialise losses, is theft. Theft is an imprisonable offence. Post by: MatTheCat on August 07, 2016, 01:00:39 AM I had all of my USD lended out. So at this point it's likely that the 36% haircut amount all assets is not that much worse than haircut among BTC holders. After I guess I lended out my USD mostly to BTC backers, who have lost most of their collateral and will never able to pay me back. So a 36% haircut + shares in bitfinex might be the best solution after all. Incompetente goverment agencies will just make things worse I guess. Well, the 36% haircut is most certainly in your interests then, but it is not in mine, and I shall be making criminal complaints. Title: Re: Bitfinex plans to socialise losses, is theft. Theft is an imprisonable offence. Post by: lexico on August 07, 2016, 09:50:37 AM There is just no way this can be legal.
They try to IVA (Individual Voluntary Arrangement) without approval from a court "..the debtor can choose IVA. IVA is a formal procedure under the Bankruptcy Ordinance to provide an alternative to bankruptcy. A debtor makes a repayment proposal to the court and the creditors. If it is approved, it will legally bind all creditors. " The only way for them could be to sell shares and hope to get some money from that. Then customers can choose if they want to participate in that or not. But since it is a company in huge trouble there is little change they'd get any substantial money for their shares. So they're left with liquidation. As a creditor (customer), write them a few letters to pay, which they probably refuse. Then, start bankruptcy proceedings. http://www.oro.gov.hk/eng/publications/bankguide.htm |