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Title: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: dballing on August 19, 2016, 02:26:06 AM I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts on this!
I've been in love with Bitcoin since 2011, but I've always been bothered by the founder's stash (around 6.5% of total supply currently). Bitcoin has every attribute that I've ever wanted in a digital currency except for that one thing. This means that every ounce of energy through word of mouth, programming, mining, marketing, infrastructure etc etc benefits him directly (in a big way as network value increases). I can ignore the massive 52gig blockchain, 10min confirm times (sometimes 40+min), 7 trans per sec limitations, etc etc, but the 1 million BTC is worrisome. He's worth half a billion currently, but if Bitcoin dominates the world someday he will become a trillionaire off of our continual energy put fourth into the network. How the hell am I the only one bothered by this? Am I living in the twilight zone right now? We are leaving one top down dominated financial system for another top down system with Satoshi at the top this time. Bitcoin maximalists tell me he deserves it, but I disagree after a certain point and that's why I'm hedged into Litecoin. Maybe we can do what ethereum founders did and fork Bitcoin to use his funds for more core developers and marketing??? ROFL! Would love to hear people's thoughts or maybe everyone will continue to be awkwardly quiet on this topic? Bow to your new god, Satoshi Nakamto (whoever that is). https://i.imgur.com/Mt5R7ay.jpg Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: chennan on August 19, 2016, 02:35:17 AM Thing is, is that Satoshi can't move his coins without the market collapsing completely. People would argue other wise, but that's the problem with a coin (same with litecoin) having poor amount of fungibilty. If anyone can see what goes in and out of Satoshi's wallet, then when he moves it somewhere else, they will automatically assume the worst and think he/she/they/it is going to completely dump everything and crash the price which causes uncertainty.
So in other words... no, even if that entity still exist on this planet and has the ability to sell off those coins, I don't think Satoshi would until Satoshi wants to "kill" bitcoin. Because there isn't as big of a holder as a million litecoin (I don't think at least), there still remains a problem of fungibility. So essentially you are dealing with 20mil bitcoins instead of 21mil Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: bathrobehero on August 19, 2016, 02:46:10 AM I'm not bothered by that at all. I mean I don't even think those coins have an owner anymore (someone with a private key) and even if there is, why wouldn't the owner moved it (or just a fraction of it) long ago when the price was crazy high? But even if one day the coins would move (which would likely mean getting sold) I think people would just take a big sigh and be glad that it's no longer there and the price would quickly rebound. Basically, I think Satoshi's stash is priced in to the current price.
And - as much of a cliche as it sounds - I do think Satoshi would deserve it because he really did gave us something we can all be thankful for. But even if he still has the keys, he more than likely realized that he'd be a dumbass if he moved the coins. Unless he'd move them to an obvious burn address which would be fucking hilarious. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: dballing on August 19, 2016, 03:09:27 AM Thing is, is that Satoshi can't move his coins without the market collapsing completely. People would argue other wise, but that's the problem with a coin (same with litecoin) having poor amount of fungibilty. If anyone can see what goes in and out of Satoshi's wallet, then when he moves it somewhere else, they will automatically assume the worst and think he/she/they/it is going to completely dump everything and crash the price which causes uncertainty. So in other words... no, even if that entity still exist on this planet and has the ability to sell off those coins, I don't think Satoshi would until Satoshi wants to "kill" bitcoin. Because there isn't as big of a holder as a million litecoin (I don't think at least), there still remains a problem of fungibility. So essentially you are dealing with 20mil bitcoins instead of 21mil Yes, but in another thread I wrote about what I would do if I were Satoshi. I would not touch the coins until the entire world has integrated into Bitcoin and built a dependence. For example, how we have become dependent on Google and if they shut down their search algo for a year we would all be screwed/feel the effects. We can all watch the coins in his wallet true, BUT if he only moved like 1000 BTC from one wallet to another 10 years from now I REALLY don't think people would freak out much. It would definitely catch attention and be all over the news, but to say the entire network would implode overnight doesn't seem realistic either. I think it depends on what he actually did and how he did it. To say that he will never touch the coins is foolish. Hording that many would not occur for no reason (there is future intent) because he could have funded Bitcoin core devs (before disappearing on us). Andreas has even stated many times that the original Bitcoin core code was a hairball and had to be fixed (so Bitcoin is a collective effort). He's clearly more intelligent than your average person and has extensive knowledge in SOOOO many fields (IE game theory, economics, history, cryptography, programming etc etc). Satoshi also might be a think tank (group of people) rather than just one or two men, so keep that in mind as well. Private keys are probably triple encrypted in deep deep cold storage right now and he clearly doesn't need the money to live for the moment. Regardless, the stash whether moved or not is an Achilles heel for the network. If he's dead then BTC essentially has a 20MM coin limit... lol, but believe me he would have a multisig inheritance structure in place for the coins. Your response has demonstrated to me that this is an unknown variable. I can't confirm whether he is dead or not... what is intentions are... and what he will do in the future... An analogy for this would be a community building a rocket ship to the moon with a giant "backdoor" at the base of the rocket. We don't know what that backdoor does or if it will ever be used, but we ignore it and we all keep working on this rocket and hope for the best... ? While there is another rocket sitting right next to it without that "backdoor" and 4x the capacity then everyone poop poos it... Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: YIz on August 19, 2016, 03:20:53 AM Having this much money in the hands of one unknown person is somewhat scary, but any movement of coins from his wallets will cause the market to drop in price, so he would likely just dump them all at once once the price is very high, or maybe he doesn't control the private keys anymore, but I doubt it.
Maybe he's even one of the users in bitcointalk, and he's watching this thread to see what people think :o Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: GreenBits on August 19, 2016, 03:24:26 AM For the record, there was no premine with BTC, to the best of my knowledge there were other people mining at the beginning. Since this was literally the first crypto, you have to assume that wouldn't be too many people. Like, mining was a new and alien concept at this point. So, whike the coins may be concentrated, it's due to a really small user base in the beginning.
Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: losh11 on August 19, 2016, 03:26:27 AM But how would you know which addresses are held by Satoshi? He could withdraw 500,000 coins and no one would know if it was him or someone else who withdrew these early coins. Of course it wouldn't be the first 500K coins mines, but coins mined after the first 500K coins.
Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: YIz on August 19, 2016, 03:28:41 AM But how would you know which addresses are held by Satoshi? He could withdraw 500,000 coins and no one would know if it was him or someone else who withdrew these early coins. Of course it wouldn't be the first 500K coins mines, but coins mined after the first 500K coins. He could theoretically hold more than we think he does, and by the way, are you the famous LTC dev who offered this guy a 10K bet? Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: losh11 on August 19, 2016, 03:30:21 AM and by the way, are you the famous LTC dev who offered this guy a 10K bet? not this guy... Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: GreenBits on August 19, 2016, 03:35:06 AM Having this much money in the hands of one unknown person is somewhat scary, but any movement of coins from his wallets will cause the market to drop in price, so he would likely just dump them all at once once the price is very high, or maybe he doesn't control the private keys anymore, but I doubt it. Maybe he's even one of the users in bitcointalk, and he's watching this thread to see what people think :o No one seems to get that Satoshi would have absolutely no incentive to harm the price of bitcoin. I'm pretty sure he would even come forward before moving said coins. Besides, I don't think any single orderbook could eat all that sell. Let alone the fact that no exchange is going to let that happen, for profit reasons as well as KYC/AML concerns. These coins move, they are getting frozen until much 'splaining has been done. This is the most watched wallet series in crypto. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: dballing on August 19, 2016, 03:36:02 AM For the record, there was no premine with BTC, to the best of my knowledge there were other people mining at the beginning. Since this was literally the first crypto, you have to assume that wouldn't be too many people. Like, mining was a new and alien concept at this point. So, whike the coins may be concentrated, it's due to a really small user base in the beginning. This is a matter of tomato vs tomaato. Dash for example had an "instamine", Ethereuem had an "instamine/IPO" and while BTC was not technically a "premine" it might as well be. It has the same effects as a premine because if something is launched and for a year he is the only miner (not so much at the end of the year) due to no one knowing of it's existence that is hardly a fair launch. The genesis block was launched into the wild and while we all could of started mining that day it was beyond our awareness. LTC at least was announced here 2 years after the BTC launch which seems a bit more fair to me. I don't dislike Bitcoin or Satoshi... I just feel like soooooo many people are unaware of this unknown variable. All the BTC fanatics ignore it and continue the RAH RAH chanting giving this zero thought. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: TheMage on August 19, 2016, 03:36:09 AM As someone who works directly with Litecoin, I will say that I am also a Bitcoin community member as well. In my opinion, we all are a part of the Bitcoin community to some extent.
With that said, I feel that Satoshi does deserve the coins that he mined (as well as every cent they are worth). My only concern is what OTHER people do if they were to see Bitcoin days destroyed from his wallet. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: dballing on August 19, 2016, 03:39:24 AM Having this much money in the hands of one unknown person is somewhat scary, but any movement of coins from his wallets will cause the market to drop in price, so he would likely just dump them all at once once the price is very high, or maybe he doesn't control the private keys anymore, but I doubt it. Maybe he's even one of the users in bitcointalk, and he's watching this thread to see what people think :o No one seems to get that Satoshi would have absolutely no incentive to harm the price of bitcoin. I'm pretty sure he would even come forward before moving said coins. Besides, I don't think any single orderbook could eat all that sell. Let alone the fact that no exchange is going to let that happen, for profit reasons as well as KYC/AML concerns. These coins move, they are getting frozen until much 'splaining has been done. This is the most watched wallet series in crypto. Good sir, not all transactions have to take place through an exchange... With this kind of cheddar I would do it off exchange (similar to the Tim Draper auction). He could relinquish 10% of his stash 10 years from now to any entity he wants and we'd have no clue who was involved. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: GreenBits on August 19, 2016, 03:40:06 AM For the record, there was no premine with BTC, to the best of my knowledge there were other people mining at the beginning. Since this was literally the first crypto, you have to assume that wouldn't be too many people. Like, mining was a new and alien concept at this point. So, whike the coins may be concentrated, it's due to a really small user base in the beginning. This is a matter of tomato vs tomaato. Dash for example had an "instamine", Ethereuem had an "instamine/IPO" and while BTC was not technically a "premine" it might as well be. It has the same effects as a premine because if something is launched and for a year he is the only miner (not so much at the end of the year) due to no one knowing of it's existence that is hardly a fair launch. The genesis block was launched into the wild and while we all could of started mining that day it was beyond our awareness. LTC at least was announced here 2 years after the BTC launch which seems a bit more fair to me. I don't dislike Bitcoin or Satoshi... I just feel like soooooo many people are unaware of this unknown variable. All the BTC fanatics ignore it and continue the RAH RAH chanting giving this zero thought. That's the point. It was the first. No one knew to mine btc as it was so bleeding edge it wasn't really a thing. Like, by definition this isn't a premine, the eidos of crypto mining was born on the day he started the Genesis block. It was only beyond the public awareness because no one really cared, not as a caveat of access. Having this much money in the hands of one unknown person is somewhat scary, but any movement of coins from his wallets will cause the market to drop in price, so he would likely just dump them all at once once the price is very high, or maybe he doesn't control the private keys anymore, but I doubt it. Maybe he's even one of the users in bitcointalk, and he's watching this thread to see what people think :o No one seems to get that Satoshi would have absolutely no incentive to harm the price of bitcoin. I'm pretty sure he would even come forward before moving said coins. Besides, I don't think any single orderbook could eat all that sell. Let alone the fact that no exchange is going to let that happen, for profit reasons as well as KYC/AML concerns. These coins move, they are getting frozen until much 'splaining has been done. This is the most watched wallet series in crypto. Good sir, not all transactions have to take place through an exchange... With this kind of cheddar I would do it off exchange (similar to the Tim Draper auction). He could relinquish 10% of his stash 10 years from now to any entity he wants and we'd have no clue who was involved. Then they won't be publically known, and therefore will not influence the price. Any one orderbook eating these coins is just that, a singular orderbook. If it crashes, there will be others. I'm agreeing with you. Also, anyone buying this magnitude of coin avec fiat will absolutely need to know Satoshis identity. It is illegal to make a transaction of this size without federal reporting; KYC will rear its head Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: TheMage on August 19, 2016, 03:48:42 AM Having this much money in the hands of one unknown person is somewhat scary, but any movement of coins from his wallets will cause the market to drop in price, so he would likely just dump them all at once once the price is very high, or maybe he doesn't control the private keys anymore, but I doubt it. Maybe he's even one of the users in bitcointalk, and he's watching this thread to see what people think :o No one seems to get that Satoshi would have absolutely no incentive to harm the price of bitcoin. I'm pretty sure he would even come forward before moving said coins. Besides, I don't think any single orderbook could eat all that sell. Let alone the fact that no exchange is going to let that happen, for profit reasons as well as KYC/AML concerns. These coins move, they are getting frozen until much 'splaining has been done. This is the most watched wallet series in crypto. Good sir, not all transactions have to take place through an exchange... With this kind of cheddar I would do it off exchange (similar to the Tim Draper auction). He could relinquish 10% of his stash 10 years from now to any entity he wants and we'd have no clue who was involved. Even off chain it still is reflected in bitcoin days destroyed. So it will be very well known within hours if not seconds if this happened. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: dballing on August 19, 2016, 03:53:50 AM If it's not a "premine" then what would you call it? Maybe we could call it a "one year mining head start due to lack of awareness advantage"? Regardless, early adopters are HEAVILY compensated and ideally that curve would have been more gradual. I'm not complaining, I just want to be apart of the most "fair" system there is.... CONSIDERING how badly we're all getting fucked by our current global monetary system.
I'm posting this more so because many Bitcoin maximalists hate on Litecoin and refer to it as a scam/copy... while many altcoiners call it a useless clone. Litecoin has it's place and it's not going away just as with Bitcoin. People care more about profits and have lost sight of the fundamentals. I can break down issues with soooooo many pumped coins it's ridiculous... and this is my only issue with Bitcoin, so it's not a perfect coin either. Most likely the future will have a handful of widely used and accepted coins. I believe BTC and LTC will definitely be in the mix. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: GreenBits on August 19, 2016, 04:03:13 AM If it's not a "premine" then what would you call it? Maybe we could call it a "one year mining head start due to lack of awareness advantage"? Regardless, early adopters are HEAVILY compensated and ideally that curve would have been more gradual. I'm not complaining, I just want to be apart of the most "fair" system there is.... CONSIDERING how badly we're all getting fucked by our current global monetary system. Early adoption, as you have said. The early bird gets the worm, in this case, a large clusterfuck of creamy, delicious value. This is about as fair as it's going to get; early bitcoin adopters took the ultimate risk with adoption. This was the first crypto. There was absolutely no guarantee this would ever come to fruition. This is the level of reward associated with that level of risk. Had bitcoin failed, all that time and resource would be gone with no recompense. Also, I have no beefs with LTC. I'm really ambivalent, I actually like the sphere as it is, with a ton of competing assets. Im more concerned with the electronic value store part of it; the underlying technology means little to me if the price is stable, the network is sound, and the confirms are fast. If TRUMPCOIN became bitcoin overnight, I would shrug, and begin using TRUMP. I apologize if it seems I have been attacking LTC, certainty not my intention. It's one of the good guys ;) And yes, banks are the god damned devil, as is PayPal. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: q835197677 on August 19, 2016, 04:47:12 AM LTC so far, it seems that there is no innovation, and I personally think that the price of LTC is significantly higher than the value of LTC
Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: losh11 on August 19, 2016, 06:32:00 AM LTC so far, it seems that there is no innovation, and I personally think that the price of LTC is significantly higher than the value of LTC LTC was not designed with the idea of being conceptually different from Bitcoin, thus most of the codebase is similar to Bitcoin. But we have some differences against Bitcoin that maybe be advantageous. For example we have a tx fee system which makes the Bitcoin tx spam attacks too expensive to carry out. But you should take a look at the roadmap for Litecoin Core on litecoincore.org (http://litecoincore.org). Quote Litecoin Core Roadmap 2016 Developers: Warren Togami, Charlie Lee, Adrian Gallagher, pooler, shaolinfry, Xinxi Wang, Kunal Jaiswal Websites - https://litecoin.org/, https://litecoincore.org/ Twitter - @litecoincore Litecoin Core is the Litecoin reference client. Featuring ‘full node’ capabilities to fully download and validate the Litecoin blockchain as well as wallet functionality to manage transactions. Litecoin Core is the most feature rich client out there and contains all the protocol rules required for the Litecoin network to function. This client is used by mining pools, merchants and services all over the world for its rock solid stability, featureset and security. Litecoin Core v0.13.x will be a major release featuring many protocol level improvements, code optimizations, the ability to roll out several soft forks at once and the greatly anticipated segregated witness innovation. Some of the most notable features include: Faster signature validation using the libsecp256k library developed by Bitcoin Core developers. Wallet pruning to reduce block size storage. Memory usage improvements including better mempool filtering of transactions. Inbuilt Tor control socket API support if Tor is running and also stream isolation for Tor communication. Functionality to reduce upload traffic. Segregated Witness to allow for greater transaction output and mitigation of transaction malleability. ZMQ support - ZeroMQ is a high performance asynchronous messaging library, aimed at use in distributed concurrent connections. Litecoin will support ZMQ for broadcasting block and transaction data. Hierarchical Deterministic wallets - Litecoin Core will support hierarchical deterministic wallets also known as HD wallets. Obfuscated blockchain data Several antivirus applications detect the Litecoin stored blockchain data as a malware threat. Litecoin 0.13 will obfuscate the blockchain data to rid these false positives. This update will also see the Inclusion of several BIPs to prepare Litecoin for upcoming innovations to do with the Lightning Network and create/use more complex smart contracts, these include: BIP9 - This BIP allows multiple soft fork changes to be deployed in parallel. BIP32 - This BIP allows Litecoin Core to support hierarchical deterministic wallets. BIP68 - This BIP allows relative locktime enforcement through sequence numbers. BIP111 - This BIP extends BIP 37, Connection Bloom filtering, by defining a service bit to allow peers to advertise that they support bloom filters explicitly. It also bumps the protocol version to allow peers to identify old nodes which allow bloom filtering of the connection despite lacking the new service bit. BIP112 - This BIP is a proposal to redefine the semantics used in determining a time-locked transaction's eligibility for inclusion in a block. The median of the last 11 blocks is used instead of the block's timestamp, ensuring that it increases monotonically with each block. BIP113 - This BIP describes a new opcode (CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY) for the Litecoin scripting system that in combination with BIP 68 allows execution pathways of a script to be restricted based on the age of the output being spent. BIP130 - This BIP adds a new message, "sendheaders", which indicates that a node prefers to receive new block announcements via a "headers" message rather than an "inv". BIP133 - This BIP adds a new message “feefilter”, which serves to instruct peers not to send “inv”s to the node for transactions with fees below the specified fee rate. BIP141 - This BIP defines a new structure called a “witness” that is committed to blocks separated from the transaction merkle tree. BIP143 - This BIP contains the logic for signature verification for version 0 witness program. BIP144 - This BIP contains the logic for new messages and serialization formats for propagation of transactions and blocks committing to segregated witness structures. BIP152 - This BIP add compact block relay to reduce the bandwidth required to propagate new blocks. The Litecoin Core developers aim to have this version released by September/October. Litecoin shares the same P2SH address format as Bitcoin (addresses beginning with a 3). This has caused some confusion for Litecoin users. We will look into introducing a unique P2SH address prefix. In the longer term, we will do extensive research and development into flexcap blocksize limit. On the other hand, Litecoin 0.13 will not include some controversial additions to BTC such as RBF (replace-by-fee). EDIT: added missing 'not'. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: YIz on August 19, 2016, 06:35:07 AM LTC so far, it seems that there is no innovation, and I personally think that the price of LTC is significantly higher than the value of LTC LTC was designed with the idea of being conceptually different from Bitcoin, thus most of the codebase is similar to Bitcoin. But we have some differences against Bitcoin that maybe be advantageous. For example we have a tx fee system which makes the Bitcoin tx spam attacks too expensive to carry out. But you should take a look at the roadmap for Litecoin Core on litecoincore.org (http://litecoincore.org). Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: K210 on August 19, 2016, 07:54:15 AM For the record LTC distribution is actually worse than BTC. This address: https://bitinfocharts.com/litecoin/address/3J5KeQSVBUEs3v2vEEkZDBtPLWqLTuZPuD holds 10.95% of all litecoins.
All coins that were launched in the early days have bad distribution because there were very few miners back then. In any system you are going to have some centralisation of wealth simply due to the early adopter effect. Disclaimer: I do not hate litecoin. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: loveofmylife on August 19, 2016, 08:04:09 AM For the record LTC distribution is actually worse than BTC. This address: https://bitinfocharts.com/litecoin/address/3J5KeQSVBUEs3v2vEEkZDBtPLWqLTuZPuD holds 10.95% of all litecoins. All coins that were launched in the early days have bad distribution because there were very few miners back then. In any system you are going to have some centralisation of wealth simply due to the early adopter effect. Disclaimer: I do not hate litecoin. A Chinese whale holds this address, and Chinese big miners have very large hashrate, I think ltc is unfair coin. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: spartak_t on August 19, 2016, 08:32:55 AM My opinion is that the best candidate (if it was 1 guy) to be Satoshi Nakamoto was David Kleiman, but he died like 3 years ago. As far as I know (because I did some researches on him) he was crazy about security and I believe that the "premine" is lost. I now googled him and saw the date he died - April 26, 2013. Bitcoin started to explode in November, 2013 and its peak ($1150) was at the end of the month. Probably that could be one of the explanations on why he didn't sold a single coin.
Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: dballing on August 19, 2016, 09:08:18 AM For the record LTC distribution is actually worse than BTC. This address: https://bitinfocharts.com/litecoin/address/3J5KeQSVBUEs3v2vEEkZDBtPLWqLTuZPuD holds 10.95% of all litecoins. All coins that were launched in the early days have bad distribution because there were very few miners back then. In any system you are going to have some centralisation of wealth simply due to the early adopter effect. Disclaimer: I do not hate litecoin. A Chinese whale holds this address, and Chinese big miners have very large hashrate, I think ltc is unfair coin. It is fair. That particular wallet didn't start accumulating coins until March, 2016. Litecoin launched in October, 2011 which was 4 years after it officially launched and everyone was aware of it. Also, I would rather they push it all into one wallet then split it up a hundred ways to give the false perception of a better distribution like BTC. How many wallets does Satoshi have? Nobody really knows and he's estimated to have closer to 1.5MM, but I wanted to be conservative. How many coins does Karpeles have (he hacked gox, let's get real)? Roger Ver? Winklevoss? Vorhees? Bitfinex Hackers? Big Vern? It's pretty damn centralized. My hope is that these whales would liquidate and reinvest in further infrastructure development for both BTC and LTC. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: K210 on August 19, 2016, 09:13:07 AM It is possible that satoshi has lost the private keys to the early coins considering that bitcoin had no value back then. I would not be surprised if he didnt bother backing up his wallets as he himself considered bitcoin an experiment.
Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: Searing on August 19, 2016, 09:13:30 AM Thing is, is that Satoshi can't move his coins without the market collapsing completely. People would argue other wise, but that's the problem with a coin (same with litecoin) having poor amount of fungibilty. If anyone can see what goes in and out of Satoshi's wallet, then when he moves it somewhere else, they will automatically assume the worst and think he/she/they/it is going to completely dump everything and crash the price which causes uncertainty. So in other words... no, even if that entity still exist on this planet and has the ability to sell off those coins, I don't think Satoshi would until Satoshi wants to "kill" bitcoin. Because there isn't as big of a holder as a million litecoin (I don't think at least), there still remains a problem of fungibility. So essentially you are dealing with 20mil bitcoins instead of 21mil Well in 2020 Craig Wright who claims to be Satoshi also claims he will have access to the above BTC in a Trust that was set up. As pissed off as he is at everyone in the crypto world..if true (odds are 1 in 1,000,000 he is Satoshi) we could be in for a rude awakening indeed in 2020. Don't really believe the guy...but in a scary movie kind of way does give one the shivers :( Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: SmirkinPepe on August 19, 2016, 09:27:52 AM Just apply some logic...
Not touching that stash of BTC would have only 4 feasible reasons: -The owner lost his key. -The owner died and took his key with him. -It's locked behind a multi-sig and the owners had a fall out. -The owner is not interested in money (extreme autism). I listed them from most high to low likelihood. That is all there is to it. Price protection, "wanting bitcoin to succeed" and superhuman restraint have nothing to do with it. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: kelsey on August 19, 2016, 09:46:02 AM With that said, I feel that Satoshi does deserve the coins that he mined (as well as every cent they are worth). completely disagree, and it almost entirely defeats the purpose of having a decentralised p2p currency. not point in having an alternative to the banker/gov controlled fiat if we just replace them with a new banker with an even bigger cut. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: YIz on August 19, 2016, 09:51:48 AM Just apply some logic... Not touching that stash of BTC would have only 4 feasible reasons: -The owner lost his key. -The owner died and took his key with him. -It's locked behind a multi-sig and the owners had a fall out. -The owner is not interested in money (extreme autism). I listed them from most high to low likelihood. That is all there is to it. Price protection, "wanting bitcoin to succeed" and superhuman restraint have nothing to do with it. I assume the person who invented bitcoin knows how to handle his private keys. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: spartak_t on August 19, 2016, 09:56:59 AM With that said, I feel that Satoshi does deserve the coins that he mined (as well as every cent they are worth). completely disagree, and it almost entirely defeats the purpose of having a decentralised p2p currency. not point in having an alternative to the banker/gov controlled fiat if we just replace them with a new banker with an even bigger cut. Your sound like most of the people here who are constantly asking for news from developers, because they only care about their $5 profit. These are the people who are always "waiting something to happen", instead to try and help with something. Of course that the creator of Bitcoin deserves the money, he made 100s or maybe 1000s of people millionaires. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: YIz on August 19, 2016, 09:58:31 AM My opinion is that the best candidate (if it was 1 guy) to be Satoshi Nakamoto was David Kleiman, but he died like 3 years ago. As far as I know (because I did some researches on him) he was crazy about security and I believe that the "premine" is lost. I now googled him and saw the date he died - April 26, 2013. Bitcoin started to explode in November, 2013 and its peak ($1150) was at the end of the month. Probably that could be one of the explanations on why he didn't sold a single coin. Even if he's dead by now, he probably left a backup and told his relatives about it, he won't just throw away millions of dollars. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: spartak_t on August 19, 2016, 10:02:21 AM My opinion is that the best candidate (if it was 1 guy) to be Satoshi Nakamoto was David Kleiman, but he died like 3 years ago. As far as I know (because I did some researches on him) he was crazy about security and I believe that the "premine" is lost. I now googled him and saw the date he died - April 26, 2013. Bitcoin started to explode in November, 2013 and its peak ($1150) was at the end of the month. Probably that could be one of the explanations on why he didn't sold a single coin. Even if he's dead by now, he probably left a backup and told his relatives about it, he won't just throw away millions of dollars. You think? :) Quote While he was alive, Kleiman kept a heavy-duty USB drive on his person at all times. Paige believes it might have been made by the brand Corsair — which boasts that its products are encased in “an anodized aircraft-grade aluminum housing.” If he really did possess a Satoshi Nakamoto-level fortune, it may have been sitting on that drive. According to Paige, that drive was passed to Kleiman’s brother Ira, who declined to speak on the record about whether he possessed it. But even if the bitcoins were there, recovering them wouldn’t be nearly as simple as pulling files from an ordinary USB drive. Kleiman, the consummate security buff, locked down everything he owned with encryption strong enough that even his tech-savvy partners doubt they’d be able to crack it. “If you told me there was a million dollars on Dave’s computer in this room, I wouldn’t even bother trying to look for it,” Paige said. “It would be a waste of time.” Source: http://gizmodo.com/the-strange-life-and-death-of-dave-kleiman-a-computer-1747092460 Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: YIz on August 19, 2016, 10:12:45 AM My opinion is that the best candidate (if it was 1 guy) to be Satoshi Nakamoto was David Kleiman, but he died like 3 years ago. As far as I know (because I did some researches on him) he was crazy about security and I believe that the "premine" is lost. I now googled him and saw the date he died - April 26, 2013. Bitcoin started to explode in November, 2013 and its peak ($1150) was at the end of the month. Probably that could be one of the explanations on why he didn't sold a single coin. Even if he's dead by now, he probably left a backup and told his relatives about it, he won't just throw away millions of dollars. You think? :) Quote While he was alive, Kleiman kept a heavy-duty USB drive on his person at all times. Paige believes it might have been made by the brand Corsair — which boasts that its products are encased in “an anodized aircraft-grade aluminum housing.” If he really did possess a Satoshi Nakamoto-level fortune, it may have been sitting on that drive. According to Paige, that drive was passed to Kleiman’s brother Ira, who declined to speak on the record about whether he possessed it. But even if the bitcoins were there, recovering them wouldn’t be nearly as simple as pulling files from an ordinary USB drive. Kleiman, the consummate security buff, locked down everything he owned with encryption strong enough that even his tech-savvy partners doubt they’d be able to crack it. “If you told me there was a million dollars on Dave’s computer in this room, I wouldn’t even bother trying to look for it,” Paige said. “It would be a waste of time.” Source: http://gizmodo.com/the-strange-life-and-death-of-dave-kleiman-a-computer-1747092460 Even if they were encrypted, he handed him the drive for a reason. he surely gave him the encryption key for the drive. Maybe he didn't spend them because he doesn't actually need any money, or maybe he dumped the drive an hour later, we'll never know, or maybe we will? Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: losh11 on August 19, 2016, 10:20:01 AM For the record LTC distribution is actually worse than BTC. This address: https://bitinfocharts.com/litecoin/address/3J5KeQSVBUEs3v2vEEkZDBtPLWqLTuZPuD holds 10.95% of all litecoins. All coins that were launched in the early days have bad distribution because there were very few miners back then. In any system you are going to have some centralisation of wealth simply due to the early adopter effect. Disclaimer: I do not hate litecoin. At least not initially. Litecoin is probably one of the fairest coins upon launch. Take a look at this keynote by Charlie Lee (coblee) about how this was done: https://youtube.com/watch?v=yi845h24aTQ (https://youtube.com/watch?v=yi845h24aTQ). This meant that there was initially a larger number of miners who started mining. The top 5 addresses are all held by big exchanges (cold wallets); if I remember correctly the top 1 address was held by Huobi. With Bitcoin, this might not be so obvious, but Coinbase claims to hold a larger number of BTC in cold storage. + same with Bitcoin too (Chinese exchanges)... It makes sense that exchanges handle some of the largest amount of currency, since that's where trading occurs. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: dballing on August 19, 2016, 10:27:30 AM Just apply some logic... Not touching that stash of BTC would have only 4 feasible reasons: -The owner lost his key. -The owner died and took his key with him. -It's locked behind a multi-sig and the owners had a fall out. -The owner is not interested in money (extreme autism). I listed them from most high to low likelihood. That is all there is to it. Price protection, "wanting bitcoin to succeed" and superhuman restraint have nothing to do with it. 4th option seems most likely. It would take a person with autism to create such a master piece. Don't forget the 5th option though! Which is also likely if you really knew how things worked around here :) What if a think tank was commissioned by the (insert group name here) global banking cartel, masons, shadow governments, etc etc. But why? This is what I would do... appear as though you're a grassroots decentralized peer to peer digital monetary system (money of the people) -> Acquire a controlling amount of the supply in the beginning, but claim it was fairly distributed because anyone "could" have mined it -> build the network effect to such a degree that it encompasses everyone's conciseness (everyone is well aware of it) -> then use the hegelian dialectic method (problem/reaction/solution) to slowly erode the current global monetary system through a painful hyper inflation forcing everyone into my digital web of control -> once the old system collapsed I'd issue a ban on all physical cash (1933 U.S. banned gold so these things do happen) making it impossible to leave this new digital monetary network -> once a firm dependence on Bitcoin and a handful of other coins were in place I would then build out an identification system (such as a Bitcoin wallet address service like a Yelp for people and or businesses) to be tied to all of these transparent transactions (similar to the internet of things, but a record of every transaction that will ever occur) -> put in place an automated taxation system -> finally a biometrics system would then be tied into all of this -> dissenters of our system or anyone that questions it would have their coins black listed and deemed a terrorist or whatever term you want to apply to them -> global humanity checkmated once again :) That's the fun conspiratorial side of it. However, the US Department of Defense was largely responsible for the creation of the internet, so this isn't sooooo far fetched. Buutttttt if something like that did occur I would assume people would simply create an anti-tyrannically coin and flock to that (with 100% privacy). Annd no I'm not a subterranean reptilian overlord from Uranus... Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: dinofelis on August 19, 2016, 12:28:30 PM Just apply some logic... Not touching that stash of BTC would have only 4 feasible reasons: -The owner lost his key. -The owner died and took his key with him. -It's locked behind a multi-sig and the owners had a fall out. -The owner is not interested in money (extreme autism). The addresses are definitely not multisig. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: spartak_t on August 19, 2016, 01:07:43 PM My opinion is that the best candidate (if it was 1 guy) to be Satoshi Nakamoto was David Kleiman, but he died like 3 years ago. As far as I know (because I did some researches on him) he was crazy about security and I believe that the "premine" is lost. I now googled him and saw the date he died - April 26, 2013. Bitcoin started to explode in November, 2013 and its peak ($1150) was at the end of the month. Probably that could be one of the explanations on why he didn't sold a single coin. Even if he's dead by now, he probably left a backup and told his relatives about it, he won't just throw away millions of dollars. You think? :) Quote While he was alive, Kleiman kept a heavy-duty USB drive on his person at all times. Paige believes it might have been made by the brand Corsair — which boasts that its products are encased in “an anodized aircraft-grade aluminum housing.” If he really did possess a Satoshi Nakamoto-level fortune, it may have been sitting on that drive. According to Paige, that drive was passed to Kleiman’s brother Ira, who declined to speak on the record about whether he possessed it. But even if the bitcoins were there, recovering them wouldn’t be nearly as simple as pulling files from an ordinary USB drive. Kleiman, the consummate security buff, locked down everything he owned with encryption strong enough that even his tech-savvy partners doubt they’d be able to crack it. “If you told me there was a million dollars on Dave’s computer in this room, I wouldn’t even bother trying to look for it,” Paige said. “It would be a waste of time.” Source: http://gizmodo.com/the-strange-life-and-death-of-dave-kleiman-a-computer-1747092460 Even if they were encrypted, he handed him the drive for a reason. he surely gave him the encryption key for the drive. Maybe he didn't spend them because he doesn't actually need any money, or maybe he dumped the drive an hour later, we'll never know, or maybe we will? Maybe he handed him the encrypted drive with the beliefs that a quantum computers would exist in the future and the encryption could be easily broken? :) I don't think he gave him even a clues on how the drive could be encrypted. Dave Kleiman was on a wheelchair for like 15-20 years and I think he died broke. The price of Bitcoin at the time of his death was $100 - $120, giving him a net worth of over $100 million (some sources claim that he had/have 1.5 million BTC). I think that he could have sold like $100-$200k worth of bitcoins and make his life a bit easier. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: Searing on August 19, 2016, 02:15:15 PM I would like to see the Litecoin Devs do a 'coup' and storm the bitoin core devs and take over. They don't seem to be in it for the 'drama' etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat) Bitcoin core imho could use some boring stable devs....(hey I know it is funny but I'm 'kinda' serious) :) http://m.memegen.com/jexslz.jpg Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: worldtreasurefinders on August 19, 2016, 04:40:39 PM Just apply some logic... Not touching that stash of BTC would have only 4 feasible reasons: -The owner lost his key. -The owner died and took his key with him. -It's locked behind a multi-sig and the owners had a fall out. -The owner is not interested in money (extreme autism). I listed them from most high to low likelihood. That is all there is to it. Price protection, "wanting bitcoin to succeed" and superhuman restraint have nothing to do with it. Do you mean altruism? Also, my bet is on #2, I think Satoshi is gone, RIP. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: shyliar on August 19, 2016, 05:20:23 PM For the record LTC distribution is actually worse than BTC. This address: https://bitinfocharts.com/litecoin/address/3J5KeQSVBUEs3v2vEEkZDBtPLWqLTuZPuD holds 10.95% of all litecoins. All coins that were launched in the early days have bad distribution because there were very few miners back then. In any system you are going to have some centralisation of wealth simply due to the early adopter effect. Disclaimer: I do not hate litecoin. What you're looking at is likely the cold wallet address of a chinese exchange. The 10.95% represents the holdings of thousands of individuals. If you look here: http://etherscan.io/accounts You can see that two exchanges have 17% of all ETH between them as well. Also some exchanges and large holders of any coin can have additional addresses and control even a larger percentage than block explorers indicate. As such the proof you offer doesn't necessarily indicate one person owns 10.95%. It might indicate that far to many individuals put their faith in exchanges for storage of wealth. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: TheMage on August 20, 2016, 01:40:33 AM With that said, I feel that Satoshi does deserve the coins that he mined (as well as every cent they are worth). completely disagree, and it almost entirely defeats the purpose of having a decentralised p2p currency. not point in having an alternative to the banker/gov controlled fiat if we just replace them with a new banker with an even bigger cut. Well it wasnt a premine, it was Satoshi keeping the network alive for us to use now. I feel its pretty fair that he reap his rewards, but we can agree to disagree :). For the record LTC distribution is actually worse than BTC. This address: https://bitinfocharts.com/litecoin/address/3J5KeQSVBUEs3v2vEEkZDBtPLWqLTuZPuD holds 10.95% of all litecoins. All coins that were launched in the early days have bad distribution because there were very few miners back then. In any system you are going to have some centralisation of wealth simply due to the early adopter effect. Disclaimer: I do not hate litecoin. At least not initially. Litecoin is probably one of the fairest coins upon launch. Take a look at this keynote by Charlie Lee (coblee) about how this was done: https://youtube.com/watch?v=yi845h24aTQ (https://youtube.com/watch?v=yi845h24aTQ). This meant that there was initially a larger number of miners who started mining. The top 5 addresses are all held by big exchanges (cold wallets); if I remember correctly the top 1 address was held by Huobi. With Bitcoin, this might not be so obvious, but Coinbase claims to hold a larger number of BTC in cold storage. + same with Bitcoin too (Chinese exchanges)... It makes sense that exchanges handle some of the largest amount of currency, since that's where trading occurs. Litecoin was one of if the the most fair launch in cryptos. Find me another coin that has a more fair launch. For the record LTC distribution is actually worse than BTC. This address: https://bitinfocharts.com/litecoin/address/3J5KeQSVBUEs3v2vEEkZDBtPLWqLTuZPuD holds 10.95% of all litecoins. All coins that were launched in the early days have bad distribution because there were very few miners back then. In any system you are going to have some centralisation of wealth simply due to the early adopter effect. Disclaimer: I do not hate litecoin. Pretty sure thats BTC-E, and those coins belong to a hell of a lot of peoples combined accounts. Also....lots of newbie accounts here trying to spread fudders. ::) Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: dballing on August 20, 2016, 02:40:23 AM Even if that is BTC-e they really need to break that wallet up for security reasons... Why the hell do all these exchanges still do that??? Haven't they learned by now?
Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: spartak_t on August 20, 2016, 04:17:58 AM Pretty sure thats BTC-E, and those coins belong to a hell of a lot of peoples combined accounts. Btw, yesterday I have looked at one of the LTC's block explorers (haven't done this in years) and I think that 48% of the coins are in control of the top 100 addresses. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: codehtcmail on August 20, 2016, 07:22:45 PM As the first cryptocurrency, the work done by the founder was necessary and having an amount of coins to test the network was something he could not escape.
Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: dballing on August 21, 2016, 12:06:36 AM As the first cryptocurrency, the work done by the founder was necessary and having an amount of coins to test the network was something he could not escape. He also could have helped fund the BTC core devs or a BTC faucet to help spread awareness... Instead he kept every single coin that he ever mined... hmm Idk, I just think it's weird that this is supposedly a gift to humanity yet if BTC dominates the world he'll become the worlds first trillionaire... ROFL It reminds me of the Monavie MLM program. Those who got in first receive exponential gains and everyone else that does all the work (such as word of mouth) receive very VERY little in comparison... Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: bbc.reporter on August 22, 2016, 07:39:51 AM It is like the litecoin supporters feel they are also entitled to the success if bitcoin. I think this is a bad attitude to have. If the founder and the developers of LTC want success then they should double their efforts to get everyone interested in the coin. With bitcoin it was a combination of cleverness, hard work and luck that made it what it is today.
Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: maydna on August 22, 2016, 07:52:40 AM maybe a little step for litecoin is to make the rate is back like before, i remember the rate its somewhere in 0.008. with the rate right now, many people don't have a trust with litecoin and make litecoin like the other coins. the rate is going down just before btc halving until now, and its still getting down.
Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: dballing on August 22, 2016, 08:19:29 AM It is like the litecoin supporters feel they are also entitled to the success if bitcoin. I think this is a bad attitude to have. If the founder and the developers of LTC want success then they should double their efforts to get everyone interested in the coin. With bitcoin it was a combination of cleverness, hard work and luck that made it what it is today. I don't think it's that... They say imitation is the best form of flattery. Charlie copied and improved Bitcoin after seeing it function in the wild for 2 years. He noticed there could be slight adjustments creating the perfect POW balance and also wanted to become the "silver" to Bitcoin's gold. I'd assume that's why people are willing to speculate and maintain some kind of price floor for it. The problem with the silver branding analogy is that the marketing efforts are not so exciting... It's more sensational to say XYZcoin is going to overtake Bitcoin and dominate the world with xyz features. Whereas with Litecoin it's like saying... "Hey, come join us and forever be considered the #2 coin!" ROFL do you see how ridiculous that sounds? So what works for Litecoin is to instead piggy back off the success of Bitcoin (and I know they hate that) basically allowing LTC to become the inheritor of their efforts both in marketing/development. Charlie refers to it as Bitcoin being the test bed for Litecoin (so then I refer to it as the official BTC diaper). When the next price rise occurs people will be looking around for that second option and LTC will be there as usual. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: bbc.reporter on August 22, 2016, 08:31:34 AM Ok. Since litecoin IS bitcoin then what do you suggest the people behind litecoin do to also have the kind of success bitcoin is having? \
Unless you think that it should be automatically given because you said litecoin is much better than bitcoin. That is self entitlement. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: kelsey on August 22, 2016, 08:34:18 AM Well it wasnt a premine, it was Satoshi keeping the network alive for us to use now. funnily enough thats also the angle the bankers use :o Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: BitHodler on August 22, 2016, 12:32:01 PM Ok. Since litecoin IS bitcoin then what do you suggest the people behind litecoin do to also have the kind of success bitcoin is having? \ It's too late for that I guess. Mainly because Litecoin is seen as some sort of back-up coin in case something bad happens with Bitcoin.Unless you think that it should be automatically given because you said litecoin is much better than bitcoin. That is self entitlement. Having that said, I like how it maintains a value of at least $3 for quite some months. That's quite impressive for a coin that isn't being hyped. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: feelsfrog on August 22, 2016, 09:00:01 PM This thread is ridiculous. This topic is ridiculous. Ridiculous, I say! 8)
Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: TheMage on August 23, 2016, 01:25:10 AM It is like the litecoin supporters feel they are also entitled to the success if bitcoin. I think this is a bad attitude to have. If the founder and the developers of LTC want success then they should double their efforts to get everyone interested in the coin. With bitcoin it was a combination of cleverness, hard work and luck that made it what it is today. I would dare to say very few Litecoin supporters feel entitled to the success of Bitcoin. Rather, we continue to work to build on cryptocurrencies (Litecoin, Bitcoin, Dogecoin, and others) and contribute to a large swath of other ecosystems. Id even state that Litecoin is supported by more people than any other alt out there, monetarily or otherwise. maybe a little step for litecoin is to make the rate is back like before, i remember the rate its somewhere in 0.008. with the rate right now, many people don't have a trust with litecoin and make litecoin like the other coins. the rate is going down just before btc halving until now, and its still getting down. My personal opinion on this, speaking as an individual, its not my prerogative to hype the market so a couple of kids can get rich. I really dont give a damn what the market does (to an extent, I am a systems engineer and I do understand the economic complexities of price and cryptos). Well it wasnt a premine, it was Satoshi keeping the network alive for us to use now. funnily enough thats also the angle the bankers use :o Haha touche :) We can agree to disagree! Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: ajmagz09 on August 23, 2016, 02:45:33 AM litecoin or bitcoin. whats the difference? they are both crypto currencies. the only differs them is bitcoin is the main coin of everything and the other coins are use for trades and sells to gain bitcoin. so whether you mine litecoin or bitcoin. its up to you. or what you want to buy.
Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: bbc.reporter on August 23, 2016, 06:30:38 AM Ok. Since litecoin IS bitcoin then what do you suggest the people behind litecoin do to also have the kind of success bitcoin is having? \ It's too late for that I guess. Mainly because Litecoin is seen as some sort of back-up coin in case something bad happens with Bitcoin.Unless you think that it should be automatically given because you said litecoin is much better than bitcoin. That is self entitlement. Having that said, I like how it maintains a value of at least $3 for quite some months. That's quite impressive for a coin that isn't being hyped. Yes but to say that litecoin should be as successful as bitcoin is wrong. It is like discrediting all the hard work that the people in bitcoin did. Not to mention going thru all the hardships, bad press and doubts that came with it. Success is earned, not given. Title: Re: Litecoin IS Bitcoin Post by: BitHodler on August 23, 2016, 12:31:33 PM Ok. Since litecoin IS bitcoin then what do you suggest the people behind litecoin do to also have the kind of success bitcoin is having? \ It's too late for that I guess. Mainly because Litecoin is seen as some sort of back-up coin in case something bad happens with Bitcoin.Unless you think that it should be automatically given because you said litecoin is much better than bitcoin. That is self entitlement. Having that said, I like how it maintains a value of at least $3 for quite some months. That's quite impressive for a coin that isn't being hyped. Yes but to say that litecoin should be as successful as bitcoin is wrong. It is like discrediting all the hard work that the people in bitcoin did. Not to mention going thru all the hardships, bad press and doubts that came with it. Success is earned, not given. |
