Bitcoin Forum

I often see this in the altcoin world since their market cap is pretty low or nonexistent altogether.

But what about Bitcoin?

It should very well be possible. Take a look at ethereum for example. 1 billion market cap and getting pump and dumped like no tomorrow with volumes spiking to 100k bitcoin in 24h.

With bitcoin it may be more difficult as there are much more exchanges that have high volume (ethereum only has poloniex, which sets the market price). In addition, the coins are much more spread around to more hands, making it more difficult to prevent early dumps.

ethereum is only on a couple exchanges and even though it has a so called billion cap, the amount of coins actually on an exchange is small.
so ethereum can be pumped easily by concentrating on those couple exchanges.

bitcoin however is spread out on many exchanges so trying to pump and dump it takes not only alot more coin/fiat but also having it all spread out on multiple exchanges, to ensure that all exchanges follow the pump/dump instead of working against your efforts

also some of them exchanges halt trades if a pump is happening so yes you can create movement, but an large spike or drop of more than 20% (meaning a real pump or dump) is not easy to do anymore.

it use to take minutes, now it takes hours/day to achieve and there is no guarantee's that your attempts to dump are not defended by others buying up ur hard work as they see it as discount day.

in short.
ethereum is a useless coin with no real world usage and limited exchange coverage. so when a dump happens people dont assume its a discount day, but see it as a stay away and let it plateau before deciding what to do

bitcoin has millions of uses (300k merchants selling multiple products) and many exchange coverage, so when a dump happens people are eager to grab it at a discount and not wait around.
not saying its impossible to pump and dump, just saying you cant make it drop/rise 20% in 10 minutes anymore, theres too much resistance

That's possible as long as they have the big amount of bitcoin and they pump or dump bitcoins as a group just like what altcoin goes .
Even bitcoins habe many exchanges it will surely have a big fluctuation .as they example the ethereum the second largest coins which have a big fluctuation even its market is so high .
I believe all things possible .the holders of bitcoins are people so the people also can do pump or dump it.

I think pumping and dumping are happening all the time with Bitcoin price. There some big owners of Bitcoin, whales, who have their own interests when it comes to the Bitcoin price and they influence on it. And some other factors on the market too but I think that individuals can strongly make impact on Bitcoin price.

Definitely yes there is a big possibility that they can pump and dump which is bitcoin. That will happen only if the big whale investors group decide to control the price of bitcoin. Just same thing what is happening in the altcoin.

Certainly yes! this is just same thing what is happening in any altcoins,  and most of the time pump and dump is happened in yobit in the different shitcoins over there in that exchange.

At this point of time every coins can be pumped and dumped. Coin market cap is simply not big enough to become immune to organized speculation of whales or overreacting masses of people.
The truth is - higher the market ca, wider the adoption - it is harder to pump&dump coin. Bitcoin with 10 billion market cap is not as susceptible to pumping as lesser altcoins with only couple million market cap.

Movement of bitcoin depends on many factors. Now is possible to trade leveraged, fork the system, exchanges inventory.. but probably the most important is the reliance on the bitcoin and their surrondings. i.ex lets say insiders aware of a big buy of a huge company from a bank. Then the bank will convert fiat into btc, wich will impact the price- then the rest people that aware of this first join in the movement product a dominoe effect that trap to the last ones.

Example2: flash crash on the desks of the firms : "pull everything! pull everything!" The world loose confidence in their finance system

it is called manipulation, and it depends on many factors.

one of them is the size of the market, altcoin markets even the biggest ones with the most hot air, are small compared to bitcoin market size. i am not talking about market cap, but the trade volume, the number of investors and many other things.
so it is so much harder to manipulate a bigger market.

also it depends on how many weak hands are in the market, AKA how many newbies that will sell with the first FUD and will run to buy with the first hype.
and as you can see there are quite a few of them around so it becomes possible even in bitcoin.
but again since the market is so much bigger, the effect of it will be small.

If we compare bitcoin marketcap with the traditional forex market than it is actually very low and as bitcoin being traded in forex markets, yes it is very volatile compared to other assets and currency pairs. So few whales holding thousands of bitcoin can easily manipulate the market if he like, but i don't think it can be like 100$ within a single day. Large dumps and pumps may occur due to some natural trading movement with fear and over speculation after whales try to move a market a little bit.

Yes, any stock or coin can be pumped and dumped.

The problem with bitcoin is that it's large enough you would need substantial financial holdings to make a difference.

I'm talking millions of US$ in bitcoins.

I think yes, bitcoin can be pumped and dumped by big whales that have many bitcoins. I'm sure if they buy/sell all the bitcoins by bulk, it will change the price of bitcoins.

Maybe pumping bitcoin is easier than we think.
Of course you still need a lot of money, millions probably.
But aren't there times when the normal users are not aktive, only the bots? Like weekend?
Such a timeframe would be the best if you wanted to give bitcoin a bump. But it would not last very long I suppose.

I think bitcoin can be manipulated by whale.  They can be dump but it will be hard to pump since it needs multi million dollar in order to affect bitcoin price. Dump very possible, but pump is a bit hard. Unless there is conspiracy between big holders and the group under them.

Bitcoin can pump and dump by community if we help together we can pump it and dump it, and if you have many funds there you can dump it and pump it but im not sure if this is profitable if you pump the coin and dump because you can loose your funds there. Many investors do this to earn.more bitcoin because they always do is dump so that they can buy at low price.

I think it's very difficult because the distribution is immense and since many people have huge amount of money and "I think" even if the movement looks like a p&d it's not so easy to do as it was in 2013 i.e. With altcoins is much more possible because it's not so distributed like BTC (witch it's not in yhe very early stage). Well, this is just my opinion.

It is indeed the circulation of any altcoin or crypto. so it is not a serious problem for us who could benefit in the bitcoin or other crypto. Because it is one of the events that could make us a profit greater than the day that have stable prices

I do not think so. Bitcoin market is too large, therefore it is almost not possible to pump it and dump it. The other question is if one of very large international currency buyer/seller will start to do something with Bitcoin.   ;D

Its normal for crypto currency that the price is volatile but the good thing about bitcoin it will getting hard for it to die or dumped too much we have many investor in btc all of us do not want to loose mostly the higher investor. Getting low the price of bitcoin means profit ithink so many People buying it when it's cheap and then the price rise again.

yes obviously it can but only a person with huge money can manipulate bitcoin price

or there is a group at there with huge power of money could manipulate market cap and i'm pretty sure those people is exist in this world

Well, consider this: There are people out there that have literally billions of dollars. So they could in theory buy a ton of btc, which would pump the price, then sell it all at once, which would dump the price. So it only takes someone that is loaded, what if a couple billionaires unite? You can guess the answer.

Not sure if you are serious or not.
If you are I would highly disagree with you as it is pretty easy to manipulate the BTC markets.
What do you think had happened yesterday? All those lose long squeezed futures?
No one really knows what the chinese are doing with the numbers on their exchanges.
And for a new player with big pockets it wouldn't be a problem to shake the BTC markets as well.

According to demand and supply it can be dump and pump the price of bitcoins if you have a billions of money..
Yeah like other said if one person can buy tons of bitcoin the price should be increase and if they are sell those bitcoins the price should be decrease.
They are relaying in demand and supply..

Its possible  to control the rates of any cryptocurrency (including bitcoin) by an individual or group who is ready to spend lot of money.

A group of whales can pump the shit out of Bitcoin and any other commodity, and it will be hardly noticed. You just spread the tx's over a bunch

of different exchanges, using multiple accounts. We have seen what happens, when there is a run to other Alt coins and how it influences the

the price.. they pump a Alt coin and then synchronize the dump, to maximize profits.. then they run back to Bitcoin.  ::)

It is possible and we see btc prise up and down literally every day so yeah it is possible,but it's definitely harder to do for BTC especially because its market is really huge and you'll need a lot of people controlling the market which is really hard.
So while there can be corrections,it's definitely not easy to do.

Bitcoin is an investment tool or derivative, so bug groups trade it behind the screen, stock is pump and dump, bitcoin is as well

just read this https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-whale/ (https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-whale/)

the best spot is this

You think this this guy can or can not pump & dump btc ?  ;D

Thank you for the link.  I enjoyed that read.  At least now I know that I need to get out of the "whale's" way or be crushed in the process.  I thought my btc savings were going to give me some power, but after glancing at those monster accounts I see I am really just along for the ride.  I really believe this will change in the long run.  I base that on the concept that demand will soon grow faster than new coins can be mined.  As those whales sell off the big block wallets will get spread over several smaller ones and then again sold to even smaller ones, until eventually coins may get spread around to what I'll call the general public's use.  Talking a few years here, but I am in this for the long haul.

Theoretically, it's possible. Given that if the player holds enough money to buy a huge percentage of all the supply there is, technically he'll be able to influence the value of bitcoin, thus being able to do pump-dump scheme.

Anything that's bought and sold and subject to the laws of supply and demand can be "pumped and dumped". It happened to tulips in the 1800s (ore earlier) and stocks (obviously, ever since). The challenge one would have with a pump and dump in bitcoin is the leverage needed to do so.

By leverage, I mean having ownership of enough coins to impact the price. The prime candidates with that kind of leverage are the commercial miners and uber wealthy owners, i.e., Satoshi, Winklevii, etc.

That's why it happens so easily with alt coins. Their value per coin is so insignificantly small that it's easy for anyone to own alot and influence the market. Also, the amount of coins traded (liquidity) impacts this as well. The less daily liquidity the easier it is to influence the market on one purchase or sale.

it is so much different with altcoins because you can do the pump and dump with a lot less money and make a lot more out of it.

for example ethereum that everybody loves to mention here, was one of the easiest coins to pump and dump. they had control over almost all the coins available (similar premine) and they pumped the price up with that control and the hype they created. and it didn't need any money at all.

in bitcoin to do similar thing you will need millions of dollars.
but also there is sadly still room for manipulation is smaller scales.

If you are talking about Bitstamp solely, then an instant buy of around 2090BTC worth ~$1.3 million, would get the price to reach $700 directly.

If Bitcoin can be dumped as the recent Bitfinex hacked proofed it can also be pumped, but the percentage movement will be low compared to other Altcoins

i think bitcoin can be pump and get dumped while there is a panic buy and panic sell on the market. and this is happen on many altcoins, but for bitcoin, i think it will need big bitcoin to make a pump and dump.

I think pumping and dumpimg of Bitcoin becomes more difficult to do with time. The more people are using Bitcoin the more of those who will "dump early" in case of pumping or will start buying in case of dumping.

I gather it is safe to assume that nowadays it may require no less than a major exchange hack to get a sizable "discount window" if you are waiting for a Bitcoin dump. The recent Bitfinex hack was probably the latest "discount day" (as you called it)...

http://i63.tinypic.com/o5rz9w.jpg

So get ready to jump on the bandwagon when the news hits home

I think it can be done. There are many bitcoin holders having big amounts and if they decided to pump the price then it can be done. Maybe one day they will agree and decide to pump the price and they can do it because they have the power to do so because of the amount of btc they are holding and then when there's no more funds left they will sell it causing for the price to dive and then maybe some small investors will join in the ride causing the big fluctuations of the price. Bitcoin is widespread and only some hold that big amount and I think they were in for it in the long term so I think they will not do it- the pump and dump- but it can be done if they want to.

Yes.It can be pumped and dumped,  but you have to invest a few billion dollars. ;D

Altcoins are very easy to pump,but bitcoin is way stronger and more popular.

Yes it can be pumped and dumped but I'm sure that it will be very difficult to do that.
Maybe you can do it if you have the majority of the bitcoins. But that seems to be impossible.

it will always require money and when the market cap is as big as bitcoin's and there are a lot of investors then you would need lots of it. and also another important thing to remember here is that the pumper has to make profit out of this so apart from having a lot of money the tricks for pumping has to work otherwise it would be throwing money away and since it is so much harder to do it these days because of the many places to trade bitcoin and so many investors in it, it doesn't happen easily.

I think it will be very difficult. total volume of bitcoin too much, and for me there is no one person who can do it.
if doing so is a community may occur. need money very much at all to do pumped and dumped bitcoin prices.

I a gree with you . it is impossible for someone to do a pump and dump. is like dreaming in the daytime.

It is true that to pump and dump bitcoin price will require a lot of fiat or bitcoin but there are few whales who have thousands of bitcoin so they can move the market as they want for few $ dump and pump.

Yes surely bitcoin is invented digital currency and also a peer 2 peer currency so as many users come to this environment value of bitcoin rise. Now you question of pump and dump. As if any one wish to get stake for  bitcoin and when anyone make a deal with huge capital price of bitcoin will go high as last 2012 price of bitcoin was reached to 1151 USD. And some user who invest with huge capital if sell it it called as dumping.

Bitcoins are needed for the dump part while dollars for the pump part, in order to bootstrap the whole process either with a pump or a dump. You sell (a lot of) bitcoins and this drives the price down, you buy (a lot of) bitcoins with dollars and this drives the price up. Then rinse, repeat, as simple as it gets...

This is how this scheme essentially works

It would take someone or a company with massive amount of bitcoin and cash to pump the bitcoin price, but i would say that there is definitely abit of post buying on good news coming and on bad

not only it can be done it is BEING done on a regular basis
it does require large amounts of coins to move the market up and down
but if you have a closer look at all major price spikes/drops
it is pretty clear that the trading volumes exceed averages 5-100 times over during that periods
so I do not believe in "just and fair hand of the market" same goes for the gold price and oil prices
that have nothing to do with the trading as we know it
again it is just my IMHO

Arbitrageurs should keep the price stable across the exchanges if the market is efficient.   And yes, it is possible to inflate the bitcoin bubble if you have enough dough.  Warren Buffett could do it easily were he so inclined.   It's just harder than these tiny market cap shitcoins.

Well its just a  law of supply and demand of bitcoin. If supply increases with less demand and the volume of bitcoin goes higher then its sure that the price would go down and also if  bitcoins supply is low and demand is high then it would rise its price. In my own opinion.

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, it would just have to be on a different scale from your average pump and dump. If the top 100 Bitcoin holders banded together and planned it carefully they probably could pull it off. Together the top 100 would have over 3,000,000 BTC to draw on, that's close to 2 Billion USD, I doubt the market would be able to keep up.

It is not only that.
Buying and selling is only a small part of the manipulations. If you recall, Mtgox was pumping the price with all kinds of fake information with their bots (granted back then it was only Mtgox and everything else was too small to matter). But that is also another method.

There is also spamming FUD about bitcoin being dead, being dumped like what Hearn did. Or the opposite, hyping bitcoin like the halving hype.

Well that is why I am thinking that whales are also the one who manipulates the market of bitcoin. But I know that they want to make some good output with it and they just want to make the price of bitcoin very stable at all so if they are the one who makes some regulation in the cycle. Pumping and dumping is just normal so that's why if there is rapid pump, for sure next to it is rapid dump.

Impossible? No, It is standard hedge fund practice. You get a bunch of people doing small trades over weeks to gradually pump up the price, and then you dump some coins to cash in on the profits. This is not something that are done in one or two transactions, but something that are done over a much longer period.

This is also not something that are done only in the Bitcoin environment, because it is common with other commodities too. ^smile^

Let me ask you this. Why is it that bitcoin has very high volatility? One day it is down below some price from a decently high price then the next day without any warning to goes up really high. After that it goes back low again. Is that not a behavior of something traded being pumped and then dumped?

We all give excuse and deny the fact that bitcoin is being pumped and dumped from time to time and justify that by saying that bitcoin is "naturally volatile". The day that bitcoin's volatility becomes low is when the price reaches $10,000 per coin. Let's see how pump and dumping traders move that. ;D

Yes, if someone has much money and he has nothing to do with this technology then pumping and dumping bitcoin is easy for him but since there is a large number of users and a great community, it is difficult to do it within a short period of time.

Personally, I don’t see any possibility of such incident in near future because panic selling awareness is increasing, everyone is getting aware about the potential of bitcoin so in such case people will acquire more and more bitcoins in price fall.

Same like other coins bitcoin price can be pumped and dumped but this is different from the altcoins where only few developers or only few people can manipulate the price.
But in the bitcoin it is a bit different because we don't have the power to pump or dump the price but this can do big holders and big exchanges if they want.

Sure bitcoin can be dumped or pumped at everytime! I think someone or some companies out there hold a bunch of bitcoin on their wallets and it is easier for them to dump bitcoin when their want. While at other side, rich people can pump it with their money.

It is not considered as a law (by economics), but technically speaking, yes, ultimately the price is determined by the balance of supply and demand. But to say that pump&dump (or dump&pump) is just the change in the balance of supply and demand (due to the law of supply and demand, if you please) is like saying that Bitcoin is a collection of processor instructions structured into an executable program code (the latter is also technically correct). While, in fact, it is more about psychology, namely, human emotions such as fear and greed...

And exploiting them for the sake of provoking panic selling or panic buying with the purpose of making profits

well till then the best tactic to go with is keep your btc savings invest in decent alts after doing your homework (reading, monitor their progress, buy on rumors sell on news etc ) and try to swim along them !

I agree you should monitor, read news about altcoins, rumors of it, and predictions also the history of it to know the behavior of the altcoin. Trading is all about knowledge patience and hard work you can earn a lot of it if you are good :D

Bitcoin is a big market now and we barely see a pump and dump game because the real movement of the price is because of the true event that is happening in the market, you need to keep yourself abreast of the latest information if you want to be a successful investor or trader.

yes bitcoin can pump and dump depending on the interest of the people, if people start buying bitcoin and the demand is greater that supply then surely the price of bitcoin will increase, but if the demand of bitcoin is decreasing and people start selling bitcoins then the price of bitcoin will decrease but the price of bitcoin cannot e effect by a single or few persons just like alt coins,

I think yes, although it is needs much capital for doing it and depend on strategy of trading from bagholder because it is dangerous if doing without good calculating, will same with burn money.

It is not difficult to do even with a large number of users. Most of the users have less than 5 bitcoins and even more so have less than 1 bitcoins. Where do you think the large volatility of Bitcoin comes from? Yes, it comes from the traders and speculators going in and out of the market. It is no different from the frequent pump and dumps we have seen with altcoins. But pump and dumps are not the problem entirely if you are a Bitcoin holder. It is the volatility that is the problem. It is so stressful to see your savings drop down in value at any given day. So to lessen this volatility in % terms, Bitcoin will have to reach the price of $10,000 or more because any volatility in the $100's of dollars will not matter so much anymore.

Bitcoin can be pumped and dumped naturally when a bad event happen like what happened with Bitfinex, and before it satoshi's message and several other events, from other side, Bitcoin can be affected by more exchanges and economic institutions.

as long bitcoin in exchange, yes it is can be pumped or dumped. But if not, ofc it can't

whales team up to get the price to be pumped up. if a single whale would try to pump the price, then the chances of seeing the price get dumped down, and all his effort go to waste, are very high. if you do it with other wealthy traders, then you can achieve much more, and the chances of succeeding are much higher.

I'd like to point out with the current situation since we all know that bitcoin back then is purely manipulated.

Anyways, in my own observation it's more easy today for the big whales to make such bearish act (dump) rather than by bullish act (pump) since for big whales to start a price increase rally they must be successful in some numbers of big bitcoin exchanges. It will really need lots of efforts and money to start a trend.

Chinese exchanges is the most targets. If they can start a trend there it's a good start and if all other traders in others exchanges will follow the trend it will result now for a price increase rally. Small players will ride the trend too.

Anyone feel free to correct me if Im wrong about my thoughts.

I don't quite understand how you came to this conclusion, namely, that it is easier for whales to dump than to pump? You say (I'm paraphrasing your words) that their efforts should succeed at major exchanges if they aim at pumping, right? But how is it different from the situation when they want to start a dump session, so to speak? Shouldn't they succeed there as well? As I see it, it all primarily depends on the current market sentiment (bullish or bearish)...

So this is essentially a moot question unless further clarified and specified

Bitcoin always still a live in future, if market dump and pump, if price low so it doesn't mean that bitcoin might be end, Actually we have to clear our mind that bitcoin is a crypto currency and its price always be up and down, and bitcoin is ones most popular crypto currency, which price give us good profit.So it doesn't matter if bitcoin's price down, when price down, so its mean now recently bitcoin price would be go up.

just like altcoins, bitcoin can be pumped and dumped. it's done by some big whales, or community who has a lot of money.

but pumping and dumping is not doing by only those whales and rich man, when many people sell their bitcoin also can affect the price of bitcoin. and there are still many factors to pump and dump bitcoin.

I think it is not a valid reason that bitcoin is going dump, You can see now bitcoin price is growing and it is again good for us, because last 3 months bitcoin down, but now again bitcoin is going up, so its mean we can make profit again. We all know that some time bitcoin is down and sometime bitcoin is up, both are better for us, because when it is down so we buy it and when it is up than we can sell it and get profit.

The bitcoin is erratic price may rise and descend so difficult to predict whether it can halt pump and dump . But bitcoin is best to invest money because you can earn big time increase the price of bitcoin . So the bitcoin is pump and dump its price because many investors manipulator in bitcoin .

With the relatively small market cap, comparable to a very small company in the stock exchange, it can surely be manipulated. The question is for what purpose? Is it because of its decentralized nature that it is easier to do such things?

yes there is no doubt about this some time bitcoin prices pumps a lot while other time its price dumps when people show interest and they start buying bitcoin the price of bitcoin goes up but when people start selling bitcoin then the price of bitcoin fell down but it is the nature of bitcoin to go up and down having  a lot of fluctuation in its price.

That is the game here and only those who have great patience will succeed, the price will surely pump and dump because we do not have a stable market and we are still in the early phase, it could be manipulated but if you believe in bitcoin you will not do panic selling as for sure we can see a good price in the future.

Obviously bitcoin can be pumped-and-dumped.The biggest pumped-and-dumped was at the end of the year 2012 and beginning of the year 2013.Some people have lots of money they are doing this for their profit.Its really bad for small investors they loose their all investment.