Bitcoin Forum

Hi,
right: paypal is reversible because if you open a dispute payment gets reversed and if youve sent btc already you can't reverse them, so you get scammed.

how are debit cards reversible? and also if i had selled you a physical item isn't that irreversible aswell once you have sent the parcel..
Maybe with paypal you can claim you have sent it since its physicall and it doesn't go against the rules (like btc i think), but with credit/debit card?

Credit and debit cards can be chargedback ;)

so i can basicaly go to any online shop buy with credit card get my order sent and then reverse it and scam them?

And get in trouble for reversing legit payments.

Hmm..
So then making a deposit for a company like mt gox which keeps track of all transactions and requires identity documents to verify your account, not be seen as a legit paymnet?

It kills me that i cannot use it due to shortage of payment methods.

Simple version is that in "card not present" tx (where merchant only has card number and hasn't physically swiped the card), the merchant takes 100% risk.  It is pretty trivial to simply lie and say "no I didn't make that purchase" and usually (say 90% of the time) the cardholder will win.   Now in a business with high markup (like say online games) this fraud is costly but the company can survive.  If you steal a $10 game from Steam it doesn't physically cost Steam $10.  They lose the potential profit but they can ride that out if they keep fraud low.   On the other hand with something like Bitcoin having a $1,000 BTC tx reversed means a $1,000 loss.  If MtGox collects 0.6% fee and had CC fraud of say 1% (which would be insanely good) they would lose money in the long run.  The losses on the 1% would cost more than the fees collected on the 99%.

It is highly unlikely there will ever be large scale CC funded BTC purchases.  At least not online.  Maybe someday a physical merchant recording ID (a point of sale ID scanner) and requiring a PIN debt card tx could get fraud low enough to be profitable.  This is similar to how casinos can allow buying chips using a credit card and make enough in fees to cover the inevitable fraud.

no doubt now, thanks

You could, but first of all that would be fraud. Second, in the case of tangible goods, the merchant would have a way to prove he delivered the goods you ordered and he could win the case.

In the case of non-tangible goods (such as bitcoins), the merchant will almost always lose when the buyer lies to his bank. The result is that merchants selling irrevocable non-tangible goods tend to not accept credit or debit cards.

Also because of scammers doing fake chargebacks, merchants often keep track of who does chargebacks (using cc cards or systems like Paypal) and blacklist those people on their sites.

you throw away your card, and say that it was stolen, and the last 5 uses was by the thief.