Bitcoin Forum

From what I've read, Zcash (formerly ZeroCoin) generates a masterkey that the devs have access to, that allows access to the complete blockchain, so you are trusting that the devs don't take advantage of this and delete the masterkey.

How retarded is that? Who would trust such technology?

They have not released anything official yet so let us see what is in store for the future. I believe they have mentioned that they could still change the algorithm and the implementation for zcash. So having the trusted set up could not be a final proposal from them.

You are somewhat over simplifying.  The devs are supposed not to have a master key ; the whole problem is how to generate the public parameters without someone holding the masterkey.  It is problematic, but it is not as blunt as you put it ; I agree however that what I understood of the way they generate it, that it is sufficient that the whole set of celebrities supposed to generate the key, collude over keeping the key (or that there's a back door in the system they use that can bring together all the shards of the golden key), to have the golden key that can generate an unlimited number of coins.  It cannot de anonymise however.

I think more work is needed on this "trusted setup" before it can be trusted, but it is not as blunt as you put it.

The market is there for taken, most of these tokens are still on trial phase and we are still not sure which one of them will solve scaling problem. 

Yes this is the basic idea. There is no "master key" to alter the blockchain. But the launch of the protocol requires a "trusted" setup by "trusted" actors. There is no way to verify that the public parameters = 21 million coin supply. Zcash supply is 100% impossible to audit because of this.

There are ways to do it. I think Zooko and company felt pressured to launch (especially after delaying past the last expected launch date) and won't be addressing this at all.

Zcoin ( http://zcoin.tech ) and ZCash are the only two cryptocurrencies that use zero-knowledge proofs to guarantee complete financial anonymity. ZCoin and ZCash seem to supplement each other quite nicely, and a good way to describe it would be sibling cryptocurrencies.

They are related in the sense that the academic community often see ZCoin as the stabler, more secure, and more proven cryptocurrency – whereas ZCash is seen as the more experimental coin using more dangerous and risky cryptography. For example, ZCoin uses the Zerocoin paper, which has been cited about 200 times by academic scholars, according to Google Search. And ZCash is cited about only half as many times. So ZCoin has about twice as much support from cryptography scholars as ZCash, because it’s based on much more stable and proven cryptography. On the other hand, ZCash has a lot fewer cryptography citations because it is based on something called ZK-Snarks, which only a few people in the world have researched.

Because ZCash is based on more risky cryptography, ZCash has this critical problem that ZCoin doesn’t face. ZCash attempts to conceal the amount of money sent in a transaction. By doing this, if ZCash has a major bug or double-spending problem, it would be unnoticed and someone could drain tens or hundreds of millions of dollars away from the ZCash market cap without anybody noticing a double spend.

Any project that involves new cryptography, including projects like ZCash, faces vulnerabilities. As we’ve seen with the Ethereum DAO project, about two hundred million dollars was drained away. Luckily, that money was recovered through a bailout because it was noticed and viewable on the public blockchain. But if ZCash faced a bug, it could potentially see hundreds of millions of dollars drained from its market cap and ZCash would be worth a lot less for speculators. In terms of practical differences, the only main differences are that zerocash is a version of the zerocoin protocol that conceals the amount in the transaction.

It uses different cryptographic schemes, but the end result is that the other information is all completely hidden through zero-knowledge proofs. Which guarantee 0 information about transaction recipient and sender.

However, that hiding of quantity sent in a transaction has the vulnerability of speculators potentially losing a lot of money through double-spends / other bugs that go unnoticed because of the hidden quantity. So I think ZCoin ( http://zcoin.tech ) could be a good supplement investment / hedge to ZCash.

http://cdn77.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/seal2.jpg

Sounds like FreeTrade + MemoryCoin  ::)

Yeah, 20% of mining for the founders... what the fuck? I mean that's ridiculous for god's sake. Why? and what's the point? Aren't they rich enough from getting in early? Im sure they will be holding decent amount of coins... this sounds worse by the second, but I still might buy to profit from a pump and dump, the problem is the coin is already near 0.1 BTC...

https://www.bitmex.com/app/trade/ZECZ16

it's already getting traded without a blockchain lol, but a price is set, now the question is if we will see a flash dump as soon as it gets on Poloniex. Lots of coins have a similar graph where it insta dumps as soon as it hits the exchange (ICOers and miners dumping)

Is this true? Then why not go back to the original idea of zerocoin built on top bitcoin or as a sidechain? Maybe they do not think it is technically possible to do? I am not a programmer so it would be good for someone to comment on this.

Nudge your brain, try to remember this
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/lisk/#charts

For a starting of $15 per coin we will surely see a lot of dumping. The powers that be behind zcash surely set a high price to give them some room for profits when they start dumping.

"now the question is if we will see a flash dump as soon as it gets on Poloniex. Lots of coins have a similar graph where it insta dumps as soon as it hits the exchange "

We surely will. Almost all of the cryptocoins are dumped the minute they are listed in the exchanges. But the development team of zcash already planned ahead and set a high price. It is overvalued now at Bitmex at .1 BTC.

Indeed, they should have forked bitcoin, instead of starting a new chain.

With 20% premine under the dev's control the temptation to dump will be too strong for him. He should at least put the coins in multisig escrow that will only be released to him slowly.

I, for one, would like to thank Zooko and his investors. The community will take the technology that they've been kind enough to fund, and use it to launch projects which are free of premines. Zcash will pump, and then inevitably dump, as few will be stupid enough to support a project with such unfair conditions.

i think we will see only the dump part... the prices right now are ridiculous. a coin being launched at 0.1? doesnt sound bullish to me... i'll buy some at 30k sats.

Can you truly find the price that low, 30Ksat

I also don't see if there is the need for Zcash still when there are already coins such as Monero, DASH, SDC, NAV and the rest such as CLOAK.
as far as i know Zcash don't even have any feature that might be helpful to the community.

the point is to make themselves money. and maybe we'll see how little the rest of the world cares about actually having control over their own money. it might make a depressing spectacle.

Agreed crypotocurrenies market is in a bullish trend and the market is willing to pay for it since money is there to be made. Steemit and DAO are  good examples

i don't understand yet how this is work or will work, but he delete that key your fund are gone? if yes and he can not steal directly your fund, then what is the worry about? there are many centralized coin how there, everything that has a big premine is in reality a centralized coin

A master key and the fact that some of the developers have done work for the Israeli government are somewhat troubling.
Also, aren't there rumors that they may have received some government funding on the project?
(Not sure if that is true but people have mentioned it before. I don't think anything was ever proven, just speculation based off the work people had done in the past.)

I need to do more research about this 'master key' and what it really does before I make up my mind I guess...

really? thats something to look forward to. 
But if its true don't you think they need to put it on their ANN thread as well? this should help them gain more support.  but then again it all has to impress the community by its features.

Monero just implemented RingCT with full implementation scheduled for January...and no trusted setup is required.

EDIT: RingCT info here: https://getmonero.org/2016/09/19/monero-0.10.0-released.html

But what if I don't want to send a transaction instantly? What if I want to wait 5 + minutes? Zcash takes a nice, long time to generate a transaction. I also like that it requires 8GB+ of memory, making it effectively impossible to use on any mobile device.

I have to admit that it took me a few seconds to catch the sarcasm...well done  :D

Wait, what?
It requires 8GB of memory?
I haven't heard that.
If so that would mean it can't run on mobile devices, tablets, and many computers...
I see dozens of laptops and PCs every day that still come with 4GB of memory installed.

That's what I've heard from those who tried out the testnet. Not certain whether that's something they can optimize.

Take a look at NAV
navcoin.org
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=679791.0

I just checked out that link. In part, it says under the WHY OUR TECH IS PRETTY COOL section, "Nav Coin is the first cryptocurrency to be fully anonymous."

How do they explain this?  https://chainz.cryptoid.info/nav/#!rich

Compare that to Monero's Rich List:  http://moneroblocks.info/richlist

Wut??? I hate those Israeli Sionist Bastards. Working for Israel is no good thing I tell you. Of course that not every israeli think alike and many are against their governement ideology. But, if the guys got funded from the Israeli governement I'm out...

Saw a reddit advertisement for ZCash recently that only announced it as a crypto that has appreciated 5x in value. That's enough for me to never ever invest. No thanks.

 zcash is will be everything bitcoin is not.  

• zcash will have a blockchain that cannot be audited which means there is no way to find hacks or track the true circulation.
• zcash will charge a tax on miners to pay investors - 2.1 million coins across 4 years
• zcash is a corporation with share holders in the company - what will happen when the corporation needs more money and needs to pay investors?
• zcash is a privacy focused currency with known knowns based in the privacy friendly US

Bitcoin's blockchain was revolutionary in that it solved an issue that plagued digital currencies; trustless verification to prevent double spending. Without this one needed to trust centralised parties not to deceive or be coerced.

With Zcash you need to trust Zooko and co not to deceive you to increase the money supply (you wouldnt know otherwise) and not to be coerced (for instance by government), bearing in mind the company Zooko moves with (look at his investors and advisors - the who's who of alt pump and dumps) trust is crucial.

Fact is Zcash is a privacy orientated digital currency that requires complete trust.

Bitcoin is a digital currency where privacy can be incorporated and it trustless.

Zcash is a complete scam. Plain and simple. https://medium.com/@yobanjo/zcash-founders-might-make-60-million-in-first-year-2c9658b2dc5d#.9f2ot0y2h

Meaning that Bitcoin is still far better than Zcash. I wouldn't trust my money to invest in zcash at this point, it is all becoming too fishy. beware guys.

Because nobody believes in this idea, developers also have solved pump it
Only the great idea will be able to draw attention of people.
For example have acted wings and Waves this way

-Where are you getting this information from ? Mind linking me to the source ?

-If somehow your information is true,aren't they being hypocrites for doing exactly what they promised not to?After-all,the hype is all about making the transactions anonymous as possible.

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/   and see the comments section at the bottom. The Zcash team repeatedly gives half-answers and refuses to completely answer questions.

http://weuse.cash/2016/06/09/btc-xmr-zcash/

The technology behind ZCash is revolutionary. And while some argue it is new crypto ZK-snarks have been peer reviewed for some 5+ years now by the best security researchers.

I agree with the general sentiment that the trusted setup could have been more detailed, open and document and also should have included more people. Why would you only use 6 people for key generation - this is a very small sample and it is quite easy to collude here. More info here: https://github.com/zcash/mpc

At 3000 BTC/ZEC, the temptation not to throw away that key must be tremendous !

For today ZCash is just for trading altcoins on poloniex and making profit or making lost into it, still there are no clear of point from the developer of ZCash, we must wait until there are updating from developers because it is new coin. There are no people know is it will be survive on markets or not.

Well... now it seems that the prime has plummit. many of the holders should have dumpped their coins. so here goes one more scam...

ZCash: What's the point?

Don't ask questions !

Just HODL buy moar cheap coinz nom nom nom

..you know white paper & ROI's & such and penny stock investors profitz & what have you.

PAY YOUR "genius tax" and don't ask questions !

They(Zbank) counted on the same fact that if they hype the coin and make some noise about a quick cash grab people would simply act out of greed and take part as in mining and even being stupid enough to buy it at high prices.
Of course it was a good profit in first but not so fast as I remember no one could mine the damn thing properly in first 3 days and even now and too much difficulty changes as the price dropped or went up again, I mean WTF?

Manipulating the core by the hour and still people being blind by their greed and fell for it as Zbank anticipated it.