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Title: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: Cryptology on October 27, 2016, 08:44:00 AM If you're planning about mining, hoarding or even trading Zcash you need to be aware of the trusted setup problem.
https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/ https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/09/how-to-compromise-zcash-and-take-over-the-world/ https://minezcash.com/zcash-trusted-setup-complete/ Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: glerant on October 27, 2016, 10:03:35 AM If you're planning about mining, hoarding or even trading Zcash you need to be aware of the trusted setup problem. https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/ https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/09/how-to-compromise-zcash-and-take-over-the-world/ https://minezcash.com/zcash-trusted-setup-complete/ I think this aspect of zerocash (or specifically ZCASH) is very well known and has been discussed here many times. At the end of the day - people need to decide if they trust the ZCASH team to; Do due diligence on the code to mitigate the risk of minting using software bugs. Perform the setup properly and in good faith. Be honest in their assertion that 'there is no back door'. The first and last issues should be reasonably easy to check by peer review of the released code. Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: Hueristic on October 27, 2016, 01:48:50 PM TRUST in a centralized authority is Irrevocably irreconcilable with the Cypherpunk ideals and Satoshi must be sickened by it.
The entire Ideology is based on the system being TRUSTLESS and immutable. The only answer is a fungable, immutable chain. With fungability comes untracability, there is no 100% fungable coin. Monero is the closest. Nothing with a trusted setup can ever be considered fungable, PERIOD. Or even be trusted to not be manipulated. Zcash from what I understand with Zksnarks there will not even be a way to see if coins are being created out of thin air. I've not wasted much time on this so if I'm wrong about that someone point out where. Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: digaran on October 27, 2016, 01:54:33 PM TRUST in a centralized authority is Irrevocably irreconcilable with the Cypherpunk ideals and Satoshi must be sickened by it. Sorry but what now? the words you used are uncanny to my eyes could you care to explain in noob language? :)The entire Ideology is based on the system being TRUSTLESS and immutable. Should we mine Zcash or what? Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: Hueristic on October 27, 2016, 01:58:44 PM TRUST in a centralized authority is Irrevocably irreconcilable with the Cypherpunk ideals and Satoshi must be sickened by it. Sorry but what now? the words you used are uncanny to my eyes could you care to explain in noob language? :)The entire Ideology is based on the system being TRUSTLESS and immutable. bitcoin is designed to be unchangeable by TPTB and no-one can change it so you do not need to trust anyone . Therefore without a hardfork no-one can take your money. Bitcoins major flaw (among others) is it is not fungable (can be traced because it is an open ledger). Quote Should we mine Zcash or what? thats up to you. Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: Cryptology on October 27, 2016, 03:03:21 PM At the end of the day - people need to decide if they trust the ZCASH team to; Do due diligence on the code to mitigate the risk of minting using software bugs. Perform the setup properly and in good faith. Be honest in their assertion that 'there is no back door'. The first and last issues should be reasonably easy to check by peer review of the released code. Too much trusting for my nerves particularly in a system where if an attacker gains the possibility of mining new coins indiscriminately it goes undetected for the rest of the world. As a matter of fact such a vulnerability existed in Bitcoin's early days (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Value_overflow_incident). Same situation with Zcash would go undetected presumably. Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: European Central Bank on October 27, 2016, 03:40:39 PM no one cares about trustlessness if there's money to be made. only a small amount of people here take it seriously. everyone else wants more dollars or bitcoin and they don't care how they get it. I think it's gonna be huge for a while. crap, but huge.
Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: Hueristic on October 27, 2016, 04:33:29 PM no one cares about trustlessness if there's money to be made. only a small amount of people here take it seriously. everyone else wants more dollars or bitcoin and they don't care how they get it. I think it's gonna be huge for a while. crap, but huge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MO7fkZc5oTitle: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: Minecache on October 27, 2016, 04:42:01 PM Isn't the genesis block made up of a keyword each dev knows and we have to trust them not to abuse this authority.
Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: KwiZ on October 27, 2016, 06:30:33 PM i think zcash has a very serious problem that if someone could exploit a bug and give himself an unlimited amount of zec, diluting the coin supply, then no one will be able to know because the supply is concealed. And you know, absolutely NO software are bug-free. So it's maybe just a matter of time...
Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: smoothie on October 27, 2016, 07:02:26 PM If you're planning about mining, hoarding or even trading Zcash you need to be aware of the trusted setup problem. https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/ https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/09/how-to-compromise-zcash-and-take-over-the-world/ https://minezcash.com/zcash-trusted-setup-complete/ I think this aspect of zerocash (or specifically ZCASH) is very well known and has been discussed here many times. At the end of the day - people need to decide if they trust the ZCASH team to; Do due diligence on the code to mitigate the risk of minting using software bugs. Perform the setup properly and in good faith. Be honest in their assertion that 'there is no back door'. The first and last issues should be reasonably easy to check by peer review of the released code. The concept was well known but the specifics of how, who, when we're not disclosed until just recently. If you have to trust certain people not to compromise the system instead of relying solely on open source vetting, then you are okay with counterparty risk. Not something I trust. Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: Bitcoinorama on October 27, 2016, 09:22:44 PM zcash is will be everything bitcoin is not.
Bitcoin's blockchain was revolutionary in that it solved an issue that plagued digital currencies; trustless verification to prevent double spending. Without this one needed to trust centralised parties not to deceive or be coerced. With Zcash you need to trust Zooko and co not to deceive you to increase the money supply (you wouldnt know otherwise) and not to be coerced (for instance by government), bearing in mind the company Zooko moves with (look at his investors and advisors - the who's who of alt pump and dumps) trust is crucial. Fact is Zcash is a privacy orientated digital currency that requires complete trust. Bitcoin is a digital currency where privacy can be incorporated and it trustless. Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: Shiroslullaby on October 27, 2016, 09:26:10 PM If you notice, there is never a reply from any of the devs when someone brings up the question about how they will prove the trusted setup is secure.
This is a security agencies dream come true. An "anonymous" coin that you can totally monitor and manipulate. Sorry but I have my tinfoil hat on when it comes to Zcash. Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: str4wm4n on October 27, 2016, 10:30:00 PM kind of stupid that they didnt live broadcast the trusted setup ceremony....
Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: rustynailer on October 28, 2016, 03:23:52 AM kind of stupid that they didnt live broadcast the trusted setup ceremony.... lol, if they did the setup behind closed doors then there is no way you can trust it. Title: Re: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. Post by: Cryptology on October 28, 2016, 04:32:09 AM If you notice, there is never a reply from any of the devs when someone brings up the question about how they will prove the trusted setup is secure. This is a security agencies dream come true. An "anonymous" coin that you can totally monitor and manipulate. Sorry but I have my tinfoil hat on when it comes to Zcash. Yeah. Actually I posted this some days ago -> https://forum.z.cash/t/toxic-waste-update/2870 No answers whatsoever. Zcash is going to be a wild ride. Right now Zcash futures are trading at 1.16 BTC on BitMex. Believe or not. Pure folly. |