Bitcoin Forum

EDIT - Better if you start from the bottom.


15:23:10   180.53000   0.5142
15:23:09   180.53001   0.2820
15:23:09   180.58459   0.2037


15:23:08   190.00000   0.2042
15:23:08   189.99000   2.1958


15:23:00   180.58459   10.0000
15:22:49   180.58459   0.9526
15:22:48   180.58459   7.8437
15:22:48   180.58459   0.2573
15:22:48   180.58460   0.3770
15:22:48   180.72608   0.4313
15:22:48   180.72942   1.0287
15:22:46   180.73062   0.0621
15:22:43   180.73062   0.2325
15:22:43   186.00000   0.1000


15:22:38   189.99000   0.1015


15:22:37   180.73062   0.2054
15:22:36   180.77700   17.1482
15:22:36   180.91236   1.1236
15:22:33   181.00000   1.0000
15:22:33   181.00000   0.1000
15:22:32   181.00000   0.0250
15:22:32   181.00000   0.1000
15:22:32   181.00000   1.0000
15:22:27   181.00000   4.9445


15:22:27   187.00000   0.1000


15:22:23   181.00000   15.0555
15:22:23   181.00001   0.5021
15:22:22   181.03982   0.4040
15:22:22   181.04150   1.0000
15:22:22   181.07079   3.0029
15:22:22   181.09000   10.0000
15:22:21   181.10000   2.0000
15:22:21   181.10000   1.1044
15:22:21   181.11283   0.0440
15:22:21   181.20000   3.5813
15:22:21   185.00000   1.0000
15:22:21   185.10500   25.0000
15:22:20   185.12093   0.2058
15:22:10   185.12093   0.0955
15:22:10   185.76282   0.3014
15:22:10   186.40470   0.3014
15:22:10   187.04658   0.3014
15:22:10   187.68847   0.3014
15:22:10   188.00000   0.1000
15:22:10   188.33035   0.3014
15:22:10   188.97223   0.3014
15:22:10   189.00000   0.1000
15:22:09   189.61411   0.3014


15:21:51   189.99000   0.3014
15:21:51   189.99000   0.3014


15:21:39   181.20000   1.4800
15:21:39   181.23000   0.5518
15:21:39   181.24996   0.0200
15:21:38   181.33823   0.4313
15:21:37   181.44526   1.0000
15:21:37   181.50000   19.3162
15:21:32   181.50000   0.0100
15:21:29   181.53662   1.0000
15:21:29   181.53662   0.0881
15:21:29   181.57799   5.0000
15:21:28   181.60001   0.5764
15:21:28   181.62000   0.5200
15:21:26   181.76398   0.4040
15:21:26   181.81001   0.7658
15:21:26   181.90000   12.0000
15:21:25   181.96497   0.5588
15:21:23   181.96589   0.2855
15:21:15   181.98194   0.5495
15:21:12   181.99002   0.0549
15:21:12   182.00000   5.3208
15:21:05   185.42845   0.4040
15:21:04   186.06000   10.0000
15:20:59   186.17017   0.4040
15:20:58   188.70000   1.2189


15:20:57   189.21271   0.4000
15:20:30   189.99000   0.1000
15:20:30   189.99000   1.0000


15:20:26   182.00000   2.7701
15:20:23   182.00000   0.0495
15:20:22   182.00000   0.5495
15:20:22   182.00000   2.0000
15:20:22   182.00000   0.1000
15:20:22   182.00000   49.8944
15:20:22   182.17000   2.5328
15:20:22   186.70000   3.0180
15:20:22   186.76034   0.5118
15:20:22   187.02501   1.7938
15:20:22   188.87550   0.4900


15:20:22   189.21271   0.4000
15:20:22   189.21271   0.4000
15:20:21   189.21281   0.4000


15:19:58   182.00000   51.6248
15:19:56   187.00000   1.2752


15:19:55   191.20001   1.1000


15:19:54   182.00000   11.4204
15:19:54   182.00000   0.1700
15:19:54   182.00000   0.1099
15:19:54   182.00000   5.0000
15:19:53   182.00000   25.0000
15:19:53   182.00000   0.0100
15:19:52   182.00001   0.6554
15:19:51   182.00110   0.2116
15:19:46   182.01000   3.0000
15:19:46   182.04150   1.0000
15:19:46   182.10000   0.2321
15:19:44   182.17000   0.0439
15:19:44   184.89273   0.5409
15:19:44   185.60000   0.4726
15:19:43   187.49616   0.5333


15:19:43   190.00000   3.0000
15:19:38   191.20001   1.6349

15:19:35   182.10000   49.7679
15:19:34   182.10001   0.8723
15:19:34   182.11101   162.2243
15:19:34   182.13000   9.2182
15:19:34   182.15011   0.4907
15:19:34   182.16000   8.0000
15:19:33   182.18889   0.5000
15:19:32   182.18889   0.5000
15:19:32   182.20000   0.5000
15:19:31   182.20000   2.4956
15:19:31   182.20001   0.1386
15:19:31   182.22000   2.7439
15:19:31   182.22000   2.7439
15:19:30   182.23400   6.0000
15:19:30   182.26000   21.9467
15:19:30   182.33000   2.0000
15:19:30   182.49104   0.4040
15:19:30   182.50000   0.0200
15:19:30   182.52335   0.6102
15:19:30   182.58000   10.0272
15:19:30   182.59161   0.5588
15:19:29   182.59239   1.0000
15:19:29   182.61569   0.0440
15:19:29   182.68430   1.0000
15:19:29   182.68430   1.3158
15:19:29   182.70001   1.6429
15:19:29   182.74836   0.0107
15:19:29   182.74836   0.3761
15:19:28   182.74836   0.3761
15:19:28   182.78771   0.7167
15:19:28   182.80001   0.5151
15:19:28   182.80001   0.3859
15:19:28   182.84345   0.0190
15:19:28   182.93252   1.0000
15:19:28   182.94509   1.1111
15:19:28   182.94509   0.5000
15:19:28   182.94509   0.5000
15:19:28   183.00000   34.8000
15:19:27   183.00000   40.0000
15:19:26   183.00000   0.0250
15:19:25   183.00000   0.1000
15:19:25   183.00000   0.0000
15:19:25   183.00002   0.6102
15:19:25   183.00110   0.1813
15:19:25   183.01000   1.0000
15:19:25   183.04150   1.0000
15:19:25   183.08124   0.5000
15:19:24   183.09611   10.0000
15:19:24   183.09768   0.2579
15:19:24   183.11000   1.3008
15:19:24   183.21000   20.0000
15:19:24   183.21825   0.5588
15:19:24   183.22100   0.4040
15:19:24   183.35914   1.0000
15:19:24   183.44528   1.0000
15:19:22   183.45690   0.7873
15:19:22   183.68590   1.0000
15:19:21   183.78000   20.0000
15:19:21   183.80175   0.5441
15:19:21   183.84865   0.4630
15:19:21   183.94810   0.1511
15:19:21   183.95388   0.4040
15:19:21   183.96145   0.0050
15:19:21   183.96145   4.5199
15:19:21   183.99252   0.0430
15:19:21   184.00000   10.0000
15:19:21   184.00000   0.1000
15:19:21   184.00000   2.0000
15:19:21   184.00000   0.0057
15:19:21   184.00000   0.0250
15:19:21   184.00000   0.1000
15:19:21   184.00000   0.2228
15:19:20   184.00001   0.9247
15:19:20   184.04150   1.0000
15:19:20   184.10000   2.0000
15:19:19   184.11000   1.3579
15:19:19   184.16000   4.0000
15:19:19   184.25001   0.5202
15:19:19   184.26015   0.2002
15:19:19   184.26015   0.1989
15:19:18   184.26016   0.5000
15:19:18   184.26016   0.5000
15:19:17   184.40000   0.0049
15:19:17   184.40001   0.6929
15:19:17   184.41977   6.1742
15:19:17   184.45001   0.3884
15:19:16   184.46456   1.3000
15:19:16   184.47895   0.4630
15:19:16   184.50000   0.0048
15:19:16   184.56223   44.9974
15:19:14   184.68969   0.4040
15:19:13   184.83454   1.4377
15:19:13   184.83784   0.5000
15:19:11   184.89000   0.1020
15:19:08   184.92468   0.5000
15:19:08   184.94031   0.5000
15:19:08   184.94220   3.6000
15:19:08   184.94220   2.0000
15:19:08   185.00000   63.0000
15:19:08   185.00000   0.5445
15:19:07   185.00000   15.0000
15:19:07   185.00000   10.0000
15:19:06   185.00000   5.0000
15:19:05   185.00000   18.0439
15:19:04   185.00000   5.4054
15:19:03   185.00000   0.1342
15:19:03   185.00000   23.2859
15:19:03   185.00000   1.0000
15:19:03   185.00000   0.1000
15:19:03   185.00000   6.0000
15:19:03   185.00000   0.0378
15:19:02   185.00000   2.7027
15:19:02   185.00000   1.0000
15:19:01   185.00000   1.1000
15:19:00   185.00000   0.3000
15:19:00   185.00000   0.0043
15:19:00   185.00000   1.0000
15:19:00   185.00000   1.0000
15:19:00   185.00000   6.3220
15:19:00   185.00000   0.0250
15:19:00   185.00000   0.1000
15:18:58   185.00000   0.0200
15:18:58   185.00000   40.0000
15:18:55   185.00000   0.9100
15:18:55   185.00000   10.0000
15:18:55   185.00449   0.3500
15:18:55   185.01000   2.0000
15:18:51   185.01000   1.0000

That, plus it only ever lags big time when it goes down.

Draw your conclusions.

When there's a big lag - people are trading blind, thus there may be big gaps ?

Large spread occurs when price moves up too much in a day, because people have no time to pile up buy orders.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Never happens on the upside.

/tin foil

Then show me.

Watch closely next time.

BRB, going to go get my video footage of the price that I constantly keep.  ::)

Can you present data backing this, or is it just how you feel about it ?

I've been watching this for weeks. I will try to put something together that is more conclusive. In the meantime, if anyone has evidence of this type of action on the upside, please post. I will have absolutely no problem admitting I'm wrong.

On one side mtgox is 'manipulating' the market for our greater good....

Random sample:

{"date":1365424996,"price":"189.1405","amount":"0.8","price_int":"18914050","amount_int":"80000000","tid":"1365424996388156","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"ask","primary":"Y","properties":"market"},{"date":1365424997,"price":"189.09268","amount":"1.1","price_int":"18909268","amount_int":"110000000","tid":"1365424997554403","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"ask","primary":"Y","properties":"market"},{"date":1365424997,"price":"187.99","amount":"30.04033432","price_int":"18799000","amount_int":"3004033432","tid":"1365424997647394","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"ask","primary":"Y","properties":"market"},{"date":1365425004,"price":"187.99","amount":"1","price_int":"18799000","amount_int":"100000000","tid":"1365425004881272","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"ask","primary":"Y","properties":"market"},{"date":1365425007,"price":"190.99","amount":"0.24937346","price_int":"19099000","amount_int":"24937346","tid":"1365425007417348","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"bid","primary":"Y","properties":"limit"},{"date":1365425008,"price":"190.99","amount":"5.40207185","price_int":"19099000","amount_int":"540207185","tid":"1365425008708984","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"bid","primary":"Y","properties":"market"},{"date":1365425008,"price":"190.99","amount":"0.0139258","price_int":"19099000","amount_int":"1392580","tid":"1365425008772286","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"bid","primary":"Y","properties":"market"},{"date":1365425008,"price":"191","amount":"7.89720235","price_int":"19100000","amount_int":"789720235","tid":"1365425008828811","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"bid","primary":"Y","properties":"market"},{"date":1365425009,"price":"191","amount":"0.24937346","price_int":"19100000","amount_int":"24937346","tid":"1365425009609284","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"bid","primary":"Y","properties":"limit"},{"date":1365425010,"price":"191","amount":"0.09974939","price_int":"19100000","amount_int":"9974939","tid":"1365425010206178","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"bid","primary":"Y","properties":"limit"},{"date":1365425011,"price":"187.99","amount":"1","price_int":"18799000","amount_int":"100000000","tid":"1365425011607438","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"ask","primary":"Y","properties":"market"},{"date":1365425026,"price":"190","amount":"0.75203021","price_int":"19000000","amount_int":"75203021","tid":"1365425026201414","price_currency":"USD","item":"BTC","trade_type":"bid","primary":"Y","properties":"limit"},

And seriously, at this price point, 1-2 dollars of difference is nearly negligible, Gox fee allow would be more than 2 dollars if you want to daytrade.

I'm being completely serious. It would actually make me feel better to see that this happening up/down.

$10 difference.....or 5+%. That is MASSIVE.

The wall height is there for you to check yourself. Also, when the lag is at it, who'll know what's the last trade price? People just issue market orders.

I guess your Occam's razor is left rusty at some hidden corner.

some big trades going on blindly..i saw that coming there were few bid support from 180 earlier on..i sold at 190 and put a bid on 182..now lets see how far it'll fall..

Interesting. I simply posted a data set without drawing conclusions (only that it's 'bizarre'). You all are the ones who have drawn conclusions from this set.

I would feel better seeing this happen to the upside; why is this a problem? Why does the bid/ask so sticky on the downside but never (that I've seen) on the upside? Does anyone ever get filled at a 5% discount to current ask/bid? I only see tiny fills at a 5% premium during a downswing....

I'll be watching the next time we move up to see if A) we lag, B) bid/ask stick 5% below current trades, and C) tiny fills occur at a 5% discount and keep the bid/ask supported at the lower level.

Not just moving up.

You should watch closely when a downtrend is reversed to a uptrend, what we saw is a uptrend reversed to a downtrend, due to the lag many people could have entirely no idea what the current "fair" price is.

In fact, during the crash from $75 to $50, we saw numerous times people panic sold at significantly lower than market price, I don't have a screenshot, but did make a thread to troll about this behaviour. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=156823.0

I see the same action during sharp reversals or otherwise. But never on a sharp reversal back up, which is what tends to happen after a sell-off. No, bid/ask are stuck higher so once the selling stops, we go directly back up. I have never seen the bid/ask stick lower on the way up.


Thank you. Exactly! This is what I'm talking about. The bid/ask is biased to stick higher during sell-offs. It sticks much higher than executing prices....small filler buys on the ask somehow keep the bid/ask from moving downwards in spite of asymmetric dumping. Why would bid/ask not move downwards with sells if the transactions are, in fact, occurring at lower prices?

This is clearly an issue with Mt Gox and is almost never a product of 'panic selling'. Why does everyone assume a small correction/sell-off is a 'panic sell'? Ludicrous. No, these are simply orderly sell-offs (often on lowish volume) that somehow trigger lags, make bid/ask stick much higher than executions, and allow tiny buys on the ask to offset 100s of coins being sold with little bid/ask movement. I wouldn't be mentioning this if I saw this type of bias (reverse: lower bid/ask than executions, lowball filler sells, etc) on the upside, but I have yet to see it on the upside.

Well, the volume maybe low, but the number of orders could be quite high, most of the panic buyers/sellers out there actually only trade very small volume.

MagicalTux allready addressed this indirectly. The cause of the lag is supposedly because when trades occur the engine has to go and check all the awaiting trades to make sure the funds are still available before moving on to the next trade. On the way down this causes problems because there are buy orders that don't have enough funds, which gunk up the engine. On the way up this can't happen, because people are manually placing orders that are able to be filled, and on the other end people are only selling what BTC they have.

Yes, but are you seeing bid/ask stick 5% lower than executed trades? And are you seeing tiny sells keep the bid/ask low in the face of 100s of coins being bought much higher? The reverse (tiny buys keep bid/ask artificially inflated) always happens when it drops.

It's not just the lag.....I'm talking about very subtle artificial support from Mt Gox to stem sell-offs.

This is now a moot point, the feedback loop has taken over and this will accelerate with or without Mt Gox's support. No, we are going up very high now.

I'm not just talking about lag -- I'm talking about subtle support during sell-offs throughout the last three months.

What is this thread about? I see red and green numbers but no explanation what's so "bizzarre" about them.

It's a trading log that shows the pattern of trades on a sell-off of bitcoin. This same pattern happens whenever there is a sell-off.

During any sell-off, very tiny buys magically keep the price buoyant until the 'panic' subsides.

Oh I see, this is a tin foil thread. I didn't want to interrupt it. Maybe one day you will understand how bids and asks are matched and how trades happen on an exchange.

I know how bids and asks are matched; I trade equities quite frequently. Watch the next sell-off closely and you'll see what I'm talking about. When sell orders get backed up, price rolls over then the Gox lag stems 'panic selling' and the bid/ask sticks 5% higher than executing trades. Gox apparently doesn't know how to match the bid/ask.

When the 'panic selling' is over, the bid/ask remain at levels much higher than all previous trades. There is no orderly flow. 100s or 1000s of coins sell-off and only 2 or 3 coins get executed 5% higher than the sell-off but somehow the price bounces right back up based solely on those tiny trades. Normally the bid/ask would go down to reflect the 100s of coins that are being sold at lower prices, but this never happens. Call it tin foil if you want. The spread should not be over 5% during a minor sell-off.

Yes i can confirm that..there is always tiny bid supports to manipulate the price on the buy form of mtgox site and the lag is more evident during sell off so that it can be filled with orders at manipulated tiny prices..
Either it is gox or some big holders geeks who can afford those tiny trade offs..