Bitcoin Forum

I'd like to be able to print something out to put in my safe-deposit box in case my hard drive crashes or my house burns down or whatever.  I realize it would be a pain to type it all back in, but it would only be for emergency use.  It would also need to be kept secret or someone could steal the money.

It would be sort of like a bearer bond.

Is there some easy to do this already?

You could do this by printing out your private keys.  gavinandresen may have some python code that can parse the wallet.dat and display them.

ByteCoin

Why not put it on a couple SD chips or USB flash drives and put those in your safe deposit box?

Because when they're worth $1000/BTC in 60 years when my kids are distributing my will, it's more likely that the paper will still be readable compared to a flash drive.

Well, this has been discussed many times... we need to be able to export / import one specific address key (or key pair? whatever is needed in the wallet).

Having that, printing or typing back or qrcode scanning is a simple issue easily solved.

The problem is actually twofold. We need to be able to import/export but also to move coins to one specific address, and not have them scattered in multiple addresses, at least for this use case.

I see. Yeah, 60 years is a stretch. I do like the idea of a paper copy, especially in a presentable certificate/book form. Getting them to and from paper shouldn't be difficult, but importing and exporting to Bitcoin is the trick unless you transfer the whole file.

If there's a c++ programmer out there looking for a good "get me feet wet" project involving Bitcoin, I think importing/exporting public/private keypairs (in one of OpenSSL's file formats) would be a really good choice.

The hard part is importing; you'd have to write code to re-scan the block chain to find transactions to/from the newly imported public/private keys, and add them to the wallet.

bar codes combined with printed hex numbers for backup?

If you want serious archival, use a tape backup. It's overkill (in terms of storage space) but rated for 15 years or so.

I have a tape drive. If you send me an LTO-3 tape (about $10?) and a copy of your wallet I'll archive it for free, and send you the tape back via USPS at my expense.

OTOH, you'll want to update the backup in your safe deposit box periodically anyway.

Personally, I have a little script that automatically dumps my wallet backup, encrypts it to me with GPG, and copies it into my dropbox every hour. That's probably a better way to go.

15 years is not "serious archival", 1000 years is.  So what about 20 years?  And who's to say a tape drive will even be available? (And I'm not sending you my wallet!  :P )  Paper can easily last hundreds of years, and all you need is a person and a keyboard (or telepathic control or whatever they invent next) to get the data into a computer.

What I envision is sending, say, 1000 BTC to a wallet, and then backing that wallet up and not using it anymore.  Or not even a whole wallet, just the minimum needed to obtain that 1000BTC (do you just need the private key for the transaction?).  Sort of an "export BitCoins" function.  Maybe a base-64 encoding (a-z, A-Z, 0-9, *, #).

I'm quite busy right now but this is one thing I actually want to see done sooner than later, so if you pass some good pointers my way, I'll have a look at it as soon as I have a little spare time.

There is a nice program specifically for archiving with plain paper. It's GUI Windows program under GPL v3.
See http://www.ollydbg.de/Paperbak

BTW, does someone know a if there is a Linux port? At least a command line version that makes/parses bitmaps.

What would be the best type of paper to use for this?

It could be a business opportunity for someone to supply the appropriate paper stock,ink,and printers so as to allow archiving for a long time .

http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/publications/PreservationServicesAdvices/psa_1.pdf (http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/publications/PreservationServicesAdvices/psa_1.pdf)

Pretty much any laser printer is the best choice for archival purposes, and archival paper is easily available.

What would be cool is a nice pre-printed savings-bond-looking form that you could print the information on, nicer to have in your safe-deposit box than just plain white paper (although of course that would work just as well).  I bet someone could come up with something really cool-looking.  Look up the Wired Magazine stock certificate if you wanna see what I mean (there are several different versions, but you'll know it when you see it).

By the way, anyone in Linux successfully creates and then read the QR code? I tried to keep not ASCII-armored PGP key into QR picture by "qrencode" but after recognizing by "zbarimg" I get garbage.

The best thing is that you can still receive bitcoins on the "bond" you have in your safe without having any other copy of it :)

So you have nice safe "saving account" locked up you can still send money to, what a wonderful thing :D

You can also check its balance, the only thing you can not do without opening the safe is withdraw money from it ...

I thought you need to create a new wallet if you do anything to it (like add money) because the old one them becomes invalid... ?  I know people have lost bitcoins even though they had an only slightly older copy of their wallet.

Well, I guess sending you (or anyone else) my wallet.dat will never happen :)

No, that happens only when you send money AFAIK

When money is sent to your account the sent balance is simply written into the block chain with the address associated with your public/private key (which is in the safe), so you can see that money was sent to you (as does anyone else who knows your address) but you can not manipulate it without your private key.

something like this maybe ?

Could you print a certificate that represents a certain number of bitcoins that you hold? You then have to redeem it for value if it is presented to you.
Back when their was a gold standard gold certificates were issued that represented an amount of gold a bank had in storage and these certificates became money for a few years. Bitcoin could be the digital gold standard so therefore printed certificates could be issued by a bitcoin holder.

That was because the exchange of certificates was a lot more convenient than exchanging the gold.

No similar incentives operate with bitcoin.

ByteCoin

Some people like to hold a physical item in their hand.They perceive this as more valuable for some reason,maybe its the human need for visual stimulation or something.

It's perfectly normal to be willing to own physically something.  That's why I think gold and bitcoins are so complementary.  None of them will replace the other.  You can't hold bitcoins in your hands, nor can you pass gold through copper lines or electromagnetic waves.

Fair enough. I meant that it's not necessary to issue a certificate which represents a certain number of bitcoins in a bank when you can just issue a certificate which encodes the bitcoins themselves.

ByteCoin

When someone dies, their next-of-kin usually goes through all the deceased's papers, but it's generally an impossible task to go through all of the deceased's online history.

Therefore, a useful option for people wanting to pass on bitcoins to their next-of-kin is to be able to print out a sheet of paper that includes three things:

- A design that looks like a valuable certificate (engraved scrolls etc), so that the paper won't be overlooked,

- The key to spend the bitcoins. Plaintext, not GPG-protected, because the next-of-kin probably won't have the GPG private key. Physical security is what's used to protect valuable papers like these.

- Some very simple instructions explaining what the code is, and how to extract its value.

It might be good to have printed backups in case a massive solar flare wiped out all the hard drives on earth!

Ahm, and a backup of the block chain too as a printout. Oh, you'll have to get many more holding such a printout for confirmation... and print out the source code too, but I guess DVDs would be safe from a solar flare, so that might work too :)

I guess you've never microwaved a DVD  :-\

Ok, assuming a radiation surge powerful enough to be compared to microwaving a dvd... we need to add to the equation making paper printouts of our DNA, because we will also need to be recovered from such backup :p

It's quite simple to GPG encrypt it to yourself first. I can just as easily archive the encrypted version.

Another crazy thought. You could set up a dead man's switch to sell them all off at a decent rate for LR and exchange that for a check in the mail to your beneficiary. Sure, a lot could go wrong, but it's easier for them.

The oldest and most time-tested method for long-term reliable "digital" data storage is punched paper tape.  Punched tape has been used for well over 70 years, and is still in use, to this day, in many manufacturing environments.

Punched paper tape was widely used years ago to store text documents, and mechanical teletype machines were deployed for copying tapes and printing them out to paper.

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFMQ1qT_RFM

Unlike magnetic tape, punched paper tape is not harmed by strong magnetic fields or radiation.  Modern punch tape is made of a tear-proof paperlike film, and could easily survive in a safe or on a bookshelf for hundreds of years.

In addition to having unusually high longevity, the encoding protocol for punched tape has been standardized for decades.  Punched tapes from the 1940s are still readable on modern equipment, and, modern tapes punched today can still be printed and copied with antique teletypes.

Semi-modern digital reader/writer units can be easily connected to modern computers, and, because of the tape's simple binary encoding scheme, it is fairly easy for any moderately competent electronics major to build a reader from commonly-available parts.

Modern Unit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz5l3Uez44s
Basic Unit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnIovFDwjrc
Home Made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZnuu18FtQk

If you are looking for truly hardcopy backups of your wallet, I'd say convert it to ASCII and punch it to tape.  As with the posts above, we're talking about long-term emergency-use backups.

TL;DR -  Backup your wallet to old-school punched tape.

Love the punch card readers there! I wonder how 2400bps would compare to the backup problem of the bitcoin system. In fact I'd like to figure out what is the total recovery footprint?

Was thinking about this today because I just thought that the bitcoin idea is so elegant it would be nice if it could survive beyond catastrophic events for electronics, hence I discovered this thread.

The first thing that sprang to mind was the long now foundation's rosetta stone project. They think in terms of a + and - 10000 year "now"

http://rosettaproject.org/disk/concept/

How about keeping a few encrypted backup copies of your wallet with a couple different online storage services.  Then keep the decryption codes and instructions in your safe deposit box (or better yet, keep the instructions online and encrypted as well...in the safe deposit box, you have the decryption code for the instructions and a URL).  This way, as you add new keys to your wallet, or you move things around, you only have to update that set of online instructions (rather than print a new copy of your wallet and replace it in your safe deposit box).  This is essentially what I do (though it's not just for bitcoins...and there's no one sheet of paper that has all the needed info...you need 2 out of 3 sheets of paper that I have distributed among family members).

Just be sure not to write it in dissappearing ink, or that the bank doesn't burn down!!!

In all honesty... Remote backups and encrypted thumb drives are the best protection you will ever get. I forsee bitcoin banks of the future offering this service to bitcoin noobs.

Thumb drives and any form of digital storage will suffer "bit rot" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rot

For a long term backup, printed data and/or punchcards are the best option.