Bitcoin Forum

The scientists are arguing whether the Universe will ultimately collapse into one huge badass black hole (so-called Big Crunch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch)) or explode into nothingness (so-called Big Rip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rip)). The Big Rip event essentially means that all the matter of the Universe including stars, atoms and elementary particles as well as spacetime itself will be ripped apart by the expanding Universe in a distant future

The Big Crunch in respect to Bitcoin would mean accumulating all bitcoins in a few or just one pair of hands, but this is not very likely to happen, so the Big Rip seems to be more probable as we see with the price skyrocketing right now. Given the Bitcoin infinite divisibility, the Big Rip of Bitcoin would mean the price per 1 BTC shooting through the roof, moon and farther into the depths of the Universe, which would completely dissolve the coin and all its 21M units in the financial spacetime...

So how likely is this, and what is your understanding of how things might unfold in real life?

Having all or most of the bitcoins in one or a few hands is very unlikely , I mean almost everyone at the moment is aiming to hodl for long term to become a millionaire in the future , without forgetting the fact that Its being currently used in both gambling industry and the Darknet .
With every increase in the bitcoin price , the chances that this happening are getting low as whoever is planning to get his hands in almost everything should be rich as hell.

That's the primary reason why I think the Big Rip of Bitcoin is not only theoretically possible but may be a likely event in the future. If people are firmly set to hold their bitcoins (which seems to be the case if we follow the price lead), this will lead to an ever diminishing number of bitcoins actually traded or used in monetary circulation (i.e. as a currency). Say, today only a few million bitcoins are traded (I don't really know what percentage is traded nowadays, so everyone is welcome to chime in on this), tomorrow only a few hundred thousands until a moment where there is no single Bitcoin present on all exchanges collectively, with millionth parts of satoshi being sold and bought...

If someone decides to cash out eventually, his stash (a minor black hole of sorts) will get quickly torn apart by millions of hands

That is lovely story, I must buy more bitcoins for storage. it will have a big sky rocket price into the mars.
yes, it's very funny, guy.

Based on your analysis in which I must commend which is based on fact and even from the look of it and the trend we are facing as at today, I say it is possible. However, based on the assumption forwarded which is the continuous increase in the price of Bitcoin, then a see much more value placed on 1 satoshi. On the other hand, no one can say that the increase in price will be forever sustained as there are factors that could mitigate against that happening among which include but not limited to a big hacking, government regulations etc... With this happening, then every of the projections will crumble.

Indeed, there are a lot of things that might interfere with this hypothesis in practice, but I still think it would be interesting to consider this theory without external factors that would prevent the events from unfolding as I see them. For example, we should assume that Bitcoin is in fact infinitely divisible (I mean, purely technically). So the question would be whether Bitcoin will get torn apart into ever smaller scruples or it will ultimately reach a state of financial homeostasis...

I'm more inclined toward the Big Rip option personally, with a run-away subdivision into smaller units

Dang, how's we supposed to ecscape the 'essplodin' universe?  That there is kinda depressin'.  S' fore as bitcoin go, no scientist an definitely no member of dis board got that clocked.  We jist gon' have ta wait'n see.  Imma gon' enjoy the run we on inna meantime, ain't you?

In fact, I'm a bit nervous already

The price rise is fine, but I'm waiting for a minor correction (in the range of a few percentages) to buy back what I have sold already. Nothing out of the ordinary to worry about so far, but if Bitcoin continues to rise this way, I may have to switch into the just storage mode. Which I wouldn't want to do since profits will then come only from the price increase itself without the usual premium of active trading

...

Interesting ideas here deisik!

Since BTC passed $950, I have not bought either, have been tempted to buy gold, but I managed to shake that off.  Been hodling.  I *might* buy some more this week, but it would be a small purchase.

I have a hunch that Bitcoin will not be around for too many years (say 20 or so).  Something else will come along IMO.  Then I suppose BTC would die a Big Rip...

Interesting. How is a "sky rocketing" price related to the Big Rip of Bitcoin? Would it not encourage the people to hold on to their coins and avoid spending them? If yes then how can the Big Rip happen in such a scenario unless the coins are given away at almost free cost?

There will no big rip and it will not happen. Though bitcoins price is skyrocketing back to the moon bitcoins death will not be on the level of a bit rip but it will be buried six feet below the ground. The ultimate reason is the arrival of fiat virtual currency that is being planned through continuous and successive meeting by the government of China and another group somewhere in Vegas. So its no longer a big rip but a bit kill.

That's the whole idea behind the Big Rip!

Hoarders holding on to their coins will make less coins participating in circulation (Bitcoin as a financial asset and currency), and the price can be however high. What about 1M dollars per bitcoin with a few hundred million bitcoin holders and only a few hundred bitcoins being freely traded across the world? If someone should decide to cash out his 1K stash of bitcoins, it will be bought up immediately by millions of greedy hands. Ultimately, it will cause all 21M bitcoins (minus lost bitcoins, of course) get distributed more or less evenly among the world population and then the Big Rip happens (run-away price with ever diminishing Bitcoin units)

No, It must not happen at the present unless we are not living in the digital world.
I can say the big rip of traditional currency in near future. I have owned some bitcoins and I love it.
cheer up with high price.

I agree with you. Everywhere in the world governments in cooperation with banks try to restrict paper money. Therefore I believe that in nearby future after the big-rip of paper money people will use credit/debit cards and web banking. After this transitional period people will use not only bitcoin but many cryptocurrencies in everyday transactions. People will have different wallets with bitcoin and alt coins to use according to their needs.

all have the time, people used to exchange goods with other goods, later emerged the money, and I believe bitcoin will be a bright future

That may happen in theory but we as humans tend to bw greedy and want more. Bitcoin will not change human nature, in fact it will validate it especially as Bitcoin's price surges higher and higher. Never have we seen the ideal scenario where wealth is evenly distributed to each one of us. Not even the communists have achieved that kind of equality.

The problem is that Bitcoin is not wealth itself

Even fiat money is not wealth. Basically, it is a tool for exchanging wealth, and if you have, say, 100T US dollars in your bank account or in paper dollars, for example, you created a machine for an atom to atom copying Benjamins (let's assume they don't have serial numbers imprinted), you won't be able to buy all the genuine wealth existing in the world. In fact, you won't be able to buy even major public companies that are being traded on exchanges, since no one will be going to sell you a controlling stake in a profitable company for whatever money. Russia has once tried to buy Opel with their US dollar reserves, you can search what's come off this

But that is besides the point of the Bitcoin Big Rip theory. If everyone behaved rationally and were here to build a utopian society then yes, it can happen. All the Bitcoins will be distributed as widely as possible. But that goes against our nature and impulses as humans.


Interesting. I will research on that if I have the time later. That is why you are one of my favorite posters here in the forum. You have many interesting thoughts and ideas.

I think both options are possible, but a Big Rip like scenario seems more likely.

For a big crunch like scenario, that would need someone who has enough wealth and is also set out to destroy Bitcoin.
Even if someone like that doesn't buy 100% of all available Bitcoins (minus lost coins), if he buys a large enough majority of them, it would almost completely restrict the usage of Bitcoin.

A Big Rip like scenario is ofc the most likely, as you've explained above.

But it was not me who first mentioned wealth in respect to Bitcoin and the Bitcoin Big Rip scenario, right?

Nevertheless, since this thread massively employs analogies from nature, we could again look at what happens in nature. I refer to entropy. It is known that entropy of a closed system doesn't diminish. What does it tell us? If we draw an analogy between entropy and Bitcoin distribution, we should conclude that in due course (i.e. over an indefinitely long period of time), the Bitcoin distribution should become more uniform (heat death of the Universe), even though currently we see some people accumulating more bitcoins than others (entropy decreases locally by increasing it everywhere else). But even black holes, which emit nothing but gravitation (that would be early adopters and big whales not going to sell a single satoshi but only attracting obsessive attention to their wallets), are set to evaporate in the future. And that would be quite in line with the Bitcoin Big Rip scenario


You are welcome

Whilst working out at the gym it came to me. I think I get what you are trying to say now. So what about this explanation. Let us say that Bitcoin indeed reached $1m per coin. Every Bitcoin holder will be rich and that will encourage them to spend their coins, thus achieving the Big Rip more quickly. A person who is holding BTC0.5 even will have enough to spend for his needs for a few years.

In the Bitcoin Big Rip scenario the Bitcoin Universe should have already expanded infinitely (well, almost). In this manner, any amount spent would only lead to further dissipation of bitcoins (entropy rising). In practice, it means that when someone wants to spend 0.5BTC (i.e. half a million dollars), it gets into many hands unless this guys buys, say, a house for the whole of his 0.5 BTC. But since folks don't buy homes every other day but spend a lot on minor things (read cheap things), eventually this expenditures will lead to more even distribution of coins...

That would ultimately amount to the heat death of the Bitcoin Universe and eventual Big Rip

What`s the point of combining astronomy and bitcoin? ;D

The bitcoin price isn`t sky rocketing anymore and this is good news.I don`t think that we need another

speculation bubble.

I really don`t know what you are trying to say in your thread?

Reading this forum while ago , and always happen the same, as a coin rises , everything is hyp, and wow! and this and that, a lot of posts all talking about how wonderfull is btc, today $1000 tomorrow 10000, bla bla ...  and so, next day the coin crash as hard as it was pumped, and everything goes in black-apocalyptic posts etc.
is interesting to get the point of both of them , and get your own final conclusion

Obviously, I'm not combining astronomy with bitcoin. All I do is draw analogies with cosmic events to make my point clearer. After all, it is basically the same laws that drive everything around us, right? If you disagree with that, you can try to challenge this stance, but remember, just declaring your disagreement most likely won't be of any interest to anyone. In case you don't understand what I am trying to say here, I guess you may want to read the OP more carefully. If you still don't understand something, feel free to ask...

If understanding is really the point of your presence here, of course


In fact, exactly this rally pushed me toward the question what would happen if Bitcoin price continued to rise indefinitely, but this has nothing to do with talks over how wonderful Bitcoin is

OK, Challenge accepted

It is no longer an argument the Universe is actually expanding faster and faster. As long as human consciousness does the same so will our progress in the material world. That includes Bitcoin or other virtual means of exchange will become more prolific. It is really a no brainer. A Government that adopts bitcoin as currency, is saving it's self hundreds for millions of dollars in coining and engraving costs. For business, a virtual currency that has no "gate fee's" associated with the vendor receipt of funds.  Instead you have the consumer paying for the use of the virtual system at the time of receipt of the Bitcoin. Not to mention that a convenience store that accepts Bitcoin, will not be a target for robbers any longer. How could the businesses of the world over look the obvious value of Bitcoin. Lastly, unlike the dollar Bitcoin is volatile, it has  great potential to go up and down making it an investment vehicle. Something the US Dollar would never be good for.
  I grant you that Bitcoin does have the ability to make significant drops. However it's history shows a steady and continued pattern upwards. As more countries and businesses accept Bitcoin, the more it's value will grow, in spite of periodic sharp drops.  

I dont think that if the price per 1 BTC will be shooting through the moon and farther we can call it a Big Rip for Bitcoin. Bitcoin will not be torn apart in that case. On the contrary, it will become stronger than ever before and the Bitcoin holders will enjoy that time very much. No one, not even an atom, will enjoy the Big Rip in the cosmological sense, because nothing will left, so it will be the end of everything. But for Bitcoin, the situation you described will be the beginning of its glory.

Not only is it unlikely, but it makes no sense. If only a handful of people went out and bought all the bitcoin, it would reduce the utillity as a currency. It would also increase the pressure for people to register their wealth on other chains, alts etc. I wouldn't trust Bitcoin as a currency if I felt a few people controlled most of the wealth, I would look to alternate currencies.

There are a few theories trying to explain the ultimate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe#Big_Rip) destiny of the Universe, and the concept of Big Rip is one of the most popular among cosmologists (and no, I'm not one of them)


The Bitcoin holders stage is what we are passing through right now (if we continue our analogy with the Universe). Black holes are Bitcoin holders that don't spend and will not spend a single satoshi until they are forced to do so by external forces in the final stages of the Bitcoin universe. These holders only accumulate bitcoins, thereby making the quantity of Bitcoins available to everyone ever smaller. This leads to the price increase which potentially has no limit. What about subatomic units of a single satoshi after Bitcoin becomes insanely scarce?

But it will all most likely end in a Big Rip

Then in practice this will not be possible. Basing what we know about the history of different civilizations including ancient history and the economies behind them, there will always be a crunch following an expansion. This will be a cycle of crunches and expansions until civilizations finally fall and a new one takes its place. It is never sustainable. It is like the search for the perpetual motion machine.

You refer to government money, be it fiat or gold (silver) coin. These governments ended with their money either been directly totally devalued (see Germany's Weimar Republic) as is the case with paper money or by heavily debasing their coins (i.e. by lowering the precious metal content of the specie). Bitcoin, on the other hand, doesn't belong to any government, and its issuance is limited only to 21M coins at that, so there is no way of deliberate debasing or devaluing it (as what governments would do when they start losing ground)...

In this way, the history is neither teacher nor source of reference here

Its entertaining as hell how bitcoiners are bipolar in their psyche. Before the dump everyone was sure that bitcoin will bring a complete equality, or at least get us closer to that. Yet the same people were profiting from others. Everyone saw a bitcoin paradise, a better world where rich are saints.

After the dump its a story exactly the same like with bolshewik russia. Its not the system that is wrong. It cant be. Its the people that are wrong.

We should breed a homo bitcoinus and this man will drive us to the paradise.

Rofl. You people are seriously giving me a great entertainment.

Btw. Back to the topic. Why should everything goes into some destination. If there are any destination to anything in nature, its either coming back to the same stadium or its turn into an oxidated burned out state.

So bitcoin will be either 0 value or turn to burn out state. Noone actually think it can last forever can they?

I don't need to run fast, I just need to run faster than you. In this way, if Bitcoin lasts longer than anyone lives, it can well be considered as eternal and perpetual for most practical purposes. Regarding bipolar disorders that many bitcoiners might be suffering, I for one always thought and continue to think of Bitcoin as a tool among many others which could potentially make my life better (so far so good). In fact, I am quite happy when Bitcoin goes up and as happy when it goes down. The only thing that gets me disappointed is when Bitcoin price gets stuck (as it is right now)...

But I know this is only temporarily, and the longer the stay the stronger the move will be in the end

The idea of big crunch doesn't seem realistic at all. At least, if we consider individuals. If we consider nations (countries) then China and something else are likely to have nearly everything, don't you think? So, it is quite relative. As for the rip, why are you saying btc is infinitely divisible? I thought that you can't divide a satoshi and so it is finitely divisible and the big rip is thus finite as well.

I think dividing satoshi depends on the code and the needs of the situation.  I also believe that changes in Bitcoin will be done in accordance to the adoption of people.  We have seen some modification on bitcoin to adjust to the current situation and needs of the network so dividing satoshi into smaller amount is possible if not today maybe in the future. 

As for the big crunch, i can say it is impossible to happen.  there are lots of people getting involve now and there will be much more in the future. 

I have to admit when it comes to Bitcoin there is no precedent to base our hypotheses and our thoughts on. But I still think an economy, any economy is not infinitely sustainable even if it is based on Bitcoin. Do you think the dark markets will live on for 1000 years barring any events that will shut down the internet?

Internet itself has been around only for 25 years (yes, I know that it all started in the early 1970s), and widespread for even less than that. So talking about 1000 years of Internet is like talking about Tausendjähriges Reich ("the Thousand-Year Reich") which in fact lasted only for some 13 years. On the other hand, the dark markets have been there as long as the state has been around and it prohibited something from free trade (which is always the case). So they are hardly going away even in a thousand years...

Provided there will still be something valuable to trade then, of course

There will not be any big rip theory of bitcoin because bitcoin has got a big community behind, Bitcoin has no border and They consider bitcoin as a digital currency for purchasing, transferring and payment.  Bitcoin will be central digital currency in the near future.

I like where this is going. I could see the dark markets still being around for a long time as long as the government bans or prohibits something. I could also see the dark markets as making the buying and selling of illegal goods and services more efficient. Bitcoin in the middle of it all is the ideal currency to serve this efficiency. We are both the same in paper. But do you really believe it can happen and last a long time? If yes then Bitcoin at these prices is still really cheap.

The Big Rip scenario remains a possibility (as we have seen glimpses of it and smelled its traces), but we are still light years away from it. Volatility seems to be an opposing force paradoxically holding things together (so far)

It is quite an interesting theory and it kinda make sense though it is quite far from happening. Considering how diverse the distribution of bitcoin is all throughout the world so seeing bitcoin ending up at a single person's hands is too far from happening. That can somehow be beneficial at some point but it would surely be temporary as all of the bitcoin in the system would dissolve in the financial space time. As time passes by, there would be more bitcoin mined so it can be expected that the supply will be infinite and it will continue on going on as long as it is not being sabotaged by huge countries and many are still supporting the use of it.

Both of them are unlikely, bitcoin is merely a new currency which basically is maths not a cosmic object that it would behave the way the universe is working. I am pretty sure concentration in bitcoin in one hand is certainly impossible, and price skyrocketing has more or less already happened, imagining hypothetical numbers is good but $60k per bitcoin isn't really less. It's better if we quantify the expected value of Bitcoin in form of maths rather than shooting up roof, moons and stars which make absolutely no sense.