Bitcoin Forum

I know this isnt a new thing for you guys but really.. there is a clear evidence of a fake volume on btcchina, someone who watches the orderflow can see it. there are times when the tape shows transactions with huge volumes ~200 btc sold ~300btc bought in matter of seconds or so, but there were no orders of such sizes in the orderbook.. the orderbook was thin as hell, in case of such big transactions there would be massive swings up and down in a matter of second. dont believe them or am i missing something?

Anyone who looks at the volumes on Coinmarketcap (click on Bitcoin, then the Markets tab) can see the Chinese volume claims are ludicrous. Often they report a higher _daily_ volume than the number of bitcoins in existence.

the same bitcoin can be sold and bought multiple times a day, hence there is a possibility of having turnover greater than the number of bitcoins in existence. but the tape and orderbook shows everyting clearly, only one thing apart from fake volume can explain this paradox - dark pools on btcchina?))

There arn't any fees on the chinese exchanges, so coins can be sold back and forth endlessly to paint the tape.

i was looking at the volume among the exchanges for the first time in a long time and it seemed preposterous, literally a week later this happens.. how can this affect the market long term? outside of this sudden sell-shock, what could be the consequences for the western exchanges and their relative price?

i didnt hear about this since a few days ago. why would they not charge fees? how would these exchanges make money? i would love to trade there lol

I believe they are doing this in order to attract more and more traders and as much money as they can to run away when the funds are considerably worth the hassle :). I wouldn't trust a satoshi to non well established exchanges and only trust small amounts with the legit services.
Any exchange site can fake their volumes as they are already doing so anyways.

lets presume you're asking a bank for a loan

what looks better, having 1 000 000 BTC traffic or 56 978 252 BTC like OKCoin claims they had in the past 30 days?

and once somebody figures out, and alerts the authorities, and they make a raid, looking for proof of payments..
and let's presume you're a Chinese miner just heard about it, have about 100-200 BTC
you start fearing tomorrow they will be closed and not operating.. guess what do you do..
hence the price drop, i believe at least..

How this affects the price? Just take a look at what happened in the last few years.

It is not like this is something new.. it's been going on since the Chinese exchanges have been around..

This? Nope, but I think there is no the ridiculous thing from there. The total market capitalization is same. can you bring me into the ludicrous thing?
http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets

Its pretty widely known that most of the Chinese exchanges are faking volumes to make it look like they move more coins than they actually do.
I guess they are trying to increase the value of their business by manipulating the books to make their profits look larger.

I want to clarify a few things:

1. Not every transaction is viewable, or at least to normal users, on order book. There are private block trades that can take place anywhere. This is not new in btc trading. Stock exchanges have these implemented long time ago. Yes, you may think this is not transparent and could be fishy. I agree but this is how market works. When you are a billionaire you don't want the public / hackers to notice you have bought 10k btc today, do you?

2. Fees: All major Chinese btc exchanges impose 0% fees on trading. This, again, is not new. That's how they attract users to sign up and trade. How do they make money? By withdrawal on fiats. Or on people who are so addicted to trading and lose their minds to go on leveraging (borrowing from the exchange). Zero fee scheme promotes incentives for high frequency automatic trading, yes, BOTS! It will creates much volatility in the short term, but long term it should not have much impact on btc fundamentals.

3. Market rigging, fake volumes, etc: Now it turns to the dark pages. Yes they exist and some of Big Three exchanges admitted to that in recent interview with the central bank of China. They are being audited now and we will see what gets digged out soon.

I dont think they ever charged a fee. You cant go on forever like that.

Chinese fake everything.  They even fake baby formula and killed 6 babies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal).  They used fake melamine to trick the tests into looking like a quality product.  Not to worry that kids are dying, in China too many kids make it seem like a few lost won't be so bad.  

In China, faking shit is just normal.

This and this is often explained as bots fighting together, one selling massive one automatically massive buying and volume is from that.
Fake or not, china is very important in bitcoin world.

They are all clearly manipulated and fake. That is one of the reasons why the PBOC has decided to step in and check what is going on behind the Chinese exchanges. Soon they might intervene and make strict regulations making it harder for ordinary people to own Bitcoins. I believe what will happen is they will require exchanges not to accept people who are below a certain salary range. They will allow only rich people to buy and sell Bitcoin because it is very risky.

Almost all of the chinese trading platform have 0% fee so they try to pump their daily volume just by selling and buying bitcoin at same price using bots/scripts. So even there is no real buy/sell orders in orderbook, there will be instant buy/sell in order history.

I'm glad  you guys are noticing this and saying something about it.

Now what I want to ask is, do you think it has something to do with what I posted about here?:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1747889.0

These are steep-assed rises and subsequent falls in Chinese trades that look really off to me. Either these are massive, instantaneous buy-outs of all the cheapest bitcoin offers or else some weird stuff is going on.

Dam, China fakin' stuff?  I'm SHOCKED.  Don't use nonea them exchanges, they all wack as fuck.  Betta call up KRS1 ta come rap at ya barf mitzvah.

i agree with your 2 and 3 but this one sounds to be fake to me or at least if it is real it is irrelevant here. because if there is such feature on exchanges to trade invisibly then you should buy or sell from the bids and asks that are currently available your trade may be hidden from the eyes but the bid and ask on the orderbook to which you sell or buy from is not invisible!!

The problem here is greed, fake volume and transaction so as to lure traders in and collect transaction fee from them, I can still smell the fresh paint of Mtgox again.

everybody knows that China has been reporting fake volumes and ridiculous numbers for that matter. but what i don't get is why people still think China controls the bitcoin price an allow other whales to use that false information to their advantage when they want to buy cheap coins.

Yes, and for that reason we did not take them into account when we determined the price in the Western countries. Preev.com for instance use data retrieved from Bitfinex, Bitstamp, BTC-E and LocalBitcoins as a default option. How many people, other than the Chinese actually trade on these Chinese exchanges? Roger Ver? I would not be too worried about this, because we have a relative huge variety of other sources to determine the price accurately. ^smile^

I am curious to know, what will happen when other exchanges take the same route as China and scrap all trading fees on their exchanges. ^Wooooooo^ 

it doesn't matter where you get the price and what the western exchanges say their price is, traders these days are looking at China and see what they are doing to follow them like a sheep.

the Chinese government wants to inspect and regulate bitcoin (just a normal routine thing) and all the English resources such as news sites and media are saying China is banning bitcoin. then they look at the CNY price and see it has gone down so they panic and dump on USD markets.

and about your last statement i have to say, Chinese exchanges have 0 fees because they earn money from other fake things and shenanigans they do in the background. which means other exchanges have to do the same shenanigans if they want to do 0 fees.

If China can fake its economic growth figures (check Forbes article dated Dec 15, 2015) they can also do this with BTC trading. It seem's like China want to show to the world that they are above and beyond every ones economic growth but in this case of BTC volumes, it's not pretty clear to me what they are trying to accomplish since BTC is non-regulated and not recognized by other Countries.

Yeah me too they just boost their daily transaction volume to attract new traders and as they offer no fee on trades, at one point they may try to steal user's fund to cover their running cost and claim that their platform get hacked.

The recent investigation on Chinese exchanger may force them to add some fee in trades.

Those big 3 exchanges have now started with the fake volume as standard there is no way to compete in china as an exchange if you dont bump up the numbers.  Its a shame and glad western sites aren't doing it.

We cannot deny the fact that there are really fake volumes over the CHinese exchangers, the recent news that is on the spotlight is that the PBOC of CHina is now currently looking and investigating the transactions of these exchangers. We still dont know when the price will be back since many people panic due to the recent issue in China. Hope it will go back up soon, it is really a big loss to us merchants.

It's because the coins can change hands multiple times a day, and every trade is counted it.

So when you see a volume of 24 million BTC / day for example, that can be 1 million BTC changing hands every hour for 24 hours. It's not 24 million bitcoin, but it counts as if it were.

It's the speed of money and how frequently it changes hands.

True, but it is still silly and distorts the real picture of who owns and trades BTC in a real-world sense.

http://www.yzgeneration.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mark-Karpeles-Arnaque-Japon-0.jpg

All you dumbasses thought it was just me. Wrong again.

Thanks for all the moneys by the way. hehe

No, that is just how it is measured. The trade volume measures how much volume is going through, just like your gas meter measures how much gas you use for heating.

The difference is that while gas is a commodity and it is destroyed after use, bitcoin is a currency, that is just recycled and changes hands.

The unit of bitcoin still remains there, even if the price drops to 0$, it cant be destroyed until there is at least 1 node online.

That is the difference.


Ok but the last price growth was exponential, this was more linear. So people are less fooled this time, even if the volume is fake,  who cares, it's the  longterm picture that couts.

And if you do care, then you should use Bitsquare, and not central exchanges.

I didn't know they charge no fees, thanks for the info. Then I think they are doing this by themselves to boost the trading volume on their exchange. Investors and traders in general are more attracted to places with bigger volumes.

They just did it for one reason to attract more person to invest. That's it. We all know what China capable of in doing something in any aspect. There is no impossible with them nowadays as you can see. So, be very vigilant in any  trading site you might have been a victim if you don't do research well.  

They have mentioned fake volumes for better popularity. At the same they have the highest users to use bitcoin and the only country which has been planning to regulate their own digital currencies. Now too as a start they made a inspection around every exchange which is into bitcoin business, which has led to the major decrease after a peak rise. Soon this price movements will get stable within limited price range.

It is because the press report "90% of bitcoin trading is done by the Chinese", and the general public then think, "do I want to invest in something controlled by China"

So the fake volume thing is a problem, because it is controlling perceptions and indirectly holding back bitcoin.

I think this sums it up perfectly

Yes it does, if Snoop Doggy Jew was the one presenting the idea.

0% fee! How do those exchanges earn money then? I'm still kinda new to this (haven't traded yet), should I be wary of Chinese exchanges? Are there reputable exchanges outside China?

Of course there are reputable exchanges outside China.  Check out Coinbase, Gemini, Kraken, BTCE, etc.

I would be wary of Chinese exchanges, but not excessively so. There has been a lot of improvement the last few years so that operations like Mt. Gox are long gone, at least among major exchanges. Chinese exchanges have faced some level of scrutiny from the PBOC for years, so they are rash if they have been doing anything too blatantly illegal and expected to keep getting away with it. But then, sometimes people are rash, so who knows?

The fake rice from plastic, That's the latest Chinese hot case in my environment.

Although the 0 fees will be supporting the rise of the fake volumes.

everything is fake.   :D

I'd love to learn what the real Chinese market volume is.

These cunning Chinese trying to hide real volume so nobody knows what  is brewing

it certainly is more than western exchange's volume but not by the current amount they are reporting.

it is more only because of a couple of reasons. the most important reason is that they have 0 fee for trades which makes any kind of trade profitable.
also the other reason is that Chinese are known to be traders, and there are lots of them who are trading and that makes a bigger volume.

with that said i say it is only 20% more!

No, you wrong. They have 0 trading fees, so they can go wild. People from other countries have to work in small percentages into their

trading calculations to make sure that they are actually making a profit. The Chinese can sell a few 1000 Satoshi's without having to worry

about these trading fees. Just imagine what the trading volume would be, if people could do the same in other countries.  ??? The west is

profit driven, so we would always see trading fees on these exchanges.  ;) 

I think "only 20%" may be a little off. Take a look at the "volume" column.

http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

The a lost of faking is going on. Maybe with chines government watching closer is will become normal. Or maybe they are not faking at all?

https://www.worldcoinindex.com/exchange

It's as if this news isn't already a known fact. :)

Chinese exchanges have been known to fake volumes primarily to attract traders and to show other parts of the world that something big is happening in their exchanges. and because of those, the Western exchanges tend to follow suit most of the time. Also, 0 fees on trades? It's definitely a profit most of the time.

Trading in China isn't free. I don't know who started that bullshit but it's not true.

https://www.btcc.com/fees  This means trading "交易". Look under this category to find the cost of trades and other services. It's very reasonable but it's not free. All other service costs are there too. With the volume they have they are making plenty of money. 

If the volume is fake it's not far off. All you need to do to know the volume is close to accurate is look at the estimated USD transaction value for all exchanges combined, the current USD exchange rate, daily number of transactions, the market cap and the exchange volume distribution.

It look like they're trying to bring in more users. With out fees, they're able to fake the volume as high as they want it. When they start attracting a large user base, that's when they'll add the trading fees.