|
Title: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Kemarit on February 05, 2017, 03:14:55 AM We all know that recently, a huge backlog of transaction of at least 50,000 at any point of time.
And one of the solution is to increase the transaction fee. Which defeat the purpose of micro-transaction with bitcoin. Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Mike Mayor on February 05, 2017, 03:25:52 AM I also am curious to know this it must habe something to do with the block chains difficulty and the increase in user base.
I cannot see any other way. I'm no expect though. Hopefully someone knows more then we do can help us out. I'm also interested in this topic so I'm glad I'm not the only one thanks for making this thread. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Huge Black Woman on February 05, 2017, 03:42:14 AM Bust this: I got tha Coinomi wallet, an' it allows you ta set tha transaction fee, an' the last time I ended up sendin up some coin, it got thru wit' a ridiculously Jewish fee. Sommethin' like 5000 satoshi for sendin' like $3. It were stuck inna network for about 38 hours but it did finally git sent. Somea these wallets is crazy an' they don't letchu adjust nothin'.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Loganota on February 05, 2017, 03:45:16 AM The increase in transaction fee is tied to a single problem that is the number of transactions per block. Bitcoin was created in order to generate blocks on average every 10 minutes and this works very well, the problem is when the number of transactions gets very high. People, to confirm in the next block, increase the fee, there the next person increases more and this will grow like a snowball.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: AceKnight on February 05, 2017, 03:52:36 AM To many transactions happening at the same time.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: cpfreeplz on February 05, 2017, 03:57:53 AM It's the idiots who aren't switching over to segwit's fault. If segwit was already implemented then there would be so many less full blocks. Better yet just increase block sizes to some huge amount that increases automatically when the average block is 80% full.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: danherbias07 on February 05, 2017, 04:41:25 AM Good thread to talk. Want to see more comments about this. In my opinion though, because of the large quantity of transactions that are being made they have to increase some fees specially for those who want it faster but I also think this should be a choice by the sender not forced transaction fees.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: pooya87 on February 05, 2017, 04:46:42 AM first and most of all we should all blame those that are spam attacking the network attacks such as these (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1776143.0)
and then the blame goes to the miners who can not yet make up their mind or possibly don't care about the block size issue and don't seem to be willing to change anything as far as block size is concerned. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Golftech on February 05, 2017, 04:52:39 AM Well i guess the miners also making their moves to get more income as we seen large numbers of transactions especially now that btc price really making some good moves we cant blame them and its up to the owners choice whether he wanted to make it fast and pay to transact much even faster.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: mornabo on February 05, 2017, 05:31:33 AM I don't know much about this issue, but this time use fee 0.0001 BTC will require a very long time to get confirmation. in contrast to a few years ago use fee 0.0001 BTC will be very fast,...
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Herbert2020 on February 05, 2017, 06:56:29 AM bitcoin users are also to blame.
because we are competing with each other after all. i see others are paying higher fee and i want to be in front of them so i pay higher fees that them and the next series of transactions pay higher than me and this will continue as long as blocks are full and mempool is big. i don't know when are we going to start calling it "bribing the miners" instead of calling it fee. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: shinratensei_ on February 05, 2017, 07:16:56 AM We all know that recently, a huge backlog of transaction of at least 50,000 at any point of time. It's not about the miner, bitcoin just need the blocksize increase for put more transaction in every block. And one of the solution is to increase the transaction fee. Which defeat the purpose of micro-transaction with bitcoin. Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? and the problem is resolved. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: joshy23 on February 05, 2017, 07:34:04 AM But if the problem of increasing transaction fee continue, this will shy away people who want to transact bitcoins because of the huge fee you need to pay.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: jakelyson on February 05, 2017, 07:45:32 AM Now we see why bitcoin cannot go mainstream yet. Only 50000 plus transactions and we are already seeing very high transaction fees and very long confirmation time. I just transfer bitcoin yesterday with 30K sats fee and still took half day to confirm. I do not know why we have 50K transactions, whether it is spam or generic, but I think that is causing too much fee and confirmation time.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: CyanFox on February 05, 2017, 07:53:41 AM It's the idiots who aren't switching over to segwit's fault. If segwit was already implemented then there would be so many less full blocks. Better yet just increase block sizes to some huge amount that increases automatically when the average block is 80% full. You are definitely correct, SegWit helps to increase the block to the suitable size, but only 20% miners agree with it, the left miners are so selfish, if btc tx is so slow, users won't use it at all, miners will cry, they are too naive to refuse SegWit. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Blawpaw on February 05, 2017, 08:35:46 AM The cost of transactions is getting expensive because the level and quantity of transactions is increasing a lot per year. Since the block size is not being able to support that many transactions the fees are increasing so that the transactions can be made faster. The solution is to increase the block size and this need to be done immediately
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: SuperVillain on February 05, 2017, 09:02:12 AM Now we see why bitcoin cannot go mainstream yet. Don't get upset.with ligntning network all will be better but for easier implementation of LN we need to activate segwit as soon as possibleTitle: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Diced90 on February 05, 2017, 09:04:09 AM Isn't this due to limited transaction capacity [blocksize] in the network and the need of faster transaction confirmations which is the cause of high fees ? If nothing is done about it we shall be seeing a huge backlog and moving to Segwit is now justifiable.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Mometaskers on February 05, 2017, 09:04:13 AM Miners surely are benefiting from the increasing transaction fees. I don't know the technicalities of blocks and so on (I only use an online wallet for sending/receiving money and the btc don't stay that long in the wallet anyway). If they do have a solution, they'll probably hold of fixing it as long as they can since it earns them more. Eventually though, they'll not be able to ignore it anymore. Existing btc users have no choice but to pay those fees anyway but it could put off potential users when they read that it takes hours for some transactions to be confirmed. "I thought the point is to easily send money!" they might say.
Anyway, are the transactions based on the wallet you are using? I can send btc just fine without paying fees. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: SuperVillain on February 05, 2017, 09:06:17 AM You are difinitely correct, SegWit helps to increase the block to the suitable size, but only 20% miners agree with it, the left miners are so selfish, if btc tx is so slow, users won't use it at all, miners will cry, they are too naive to refuse SegWit. More than 20% and those miners who lingering just wait to test in on Lightcoin. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: erickkyut on February 05, 2017, 09:08:42 AM No need to blame anyone! It is only natural that as the value of bitcoin increases, the transaction fees will increase also! Because the wallet provider and other bitcoin related entitied have their own expenses! Their business will come to extinction if they will maintain their current transaction fees while bitcoin value is constantly increasing!
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Senor.Bla on February 05, 2017, 09:48:10 AM No need to blame anyone! It is only natural that as the value of bitcoin increases, the transaction fees will increase also! Because the wallet provider and other bitcoin related entitied have their own expenses! Their business will come to extinction if they will maintain their current transaction fees while bitcoin value is constantly increasing! If the price of Bitcoin rises, then i could ask for less Bitcoin and end up with the same amount. So i see no need to take more unless my expenses are getting bigger too. But this is only true if you look from an fiat perspective. If you look at it from an Bitcoin stand, then fees might have stayed the same (since 2016 the fees more then doubled in sat/kb). Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: CraigWrightBTC on February 05, 2017, 09:53:40 AM The increasing transaction fees because of block size bitcoin
The people must be blamed because of it is us(include me), we are comunity of bitcoin but we can not make solution for this problem there is solution with segwit but many people disagree with it. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: mcaizgk2 on February 05, 2017, 11:12:48 AM Bust this: I got tha Coinomi wallet, an' it allows you ta set tha transaction fee, an' the last time I ended up sendin up some coin, it got thru wit' a ridiculously Jewish fee. Sommethin' like 5000 satoshi for sendin' like $3. It were stuck inna network for about 38 hours but it did finally git sent. Somea these wallets is crazy an' they don't letchu adjust nothin'. Coinomi Wallet allows you to adjust your fees (via Settings > Transaction Fees) however you wish. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Superways on February 05, 2017, 11:30:19 AM I was also curious about the fee of transaction of bitcoin as I am not a miner so I do not know well about it. Up to my know I think it is being settled by the miners in their software and they allow for confirmation only those transactions which have high fees. It is my view but the actual knowledge will be with miners they will know well about that.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Xester on February 05, 2017, 11:34:59 AM It is nobody's fault. We cannot blame the miners for it for increasing the fees, if they will not do it given the difficulty and cost of mining these days they will surely go bankrupt. They need to increase fees to sustain their operation and make bitcoin transaction move on. If the miners will not increase the mining fee then it will be the end of mining farms and the whole community of bitcoin users will suffer very slow confirmations on transactions.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: maku on February 05, 2017, 11:49:18 AM Surprisingly at the time I write this post there is only 4323 Unconfirmed Transactions listed: https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactionsthis
So we don't have constant problems with the network as many FUDers would like us to belive. But I agree, fees are getting ridiculous, they quadrupled in comparison to what we had in 2015. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: mobnepal on February 05, 2017, 02:00:58 PM Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness In short term we can blame miners for not including transaction with low fee and why they should miss the opportunity to earn more with high fee transaction. Other than increasing fee for transaction, making transaction with only one input/output is another solution. of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? In long term, to meet increasing demand of bitcoin and to lower fees, block size should be increased. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: jaberwock on February 05, 2017, 02:14:51 PM Except for short period of times when someone is spamming the network or there is a peak in number of transactions or the difficult suddenly changes, it is miner's responsibility, because they want to squeeze every single Satoshi possible from people, even if the miner fee is insignificant compared with teh block reward
Just compare the current value of transaction fees with the the past couple of years, both in BTC and in dollar equivalent, and you'll see a increase in price even when there is more than enough space left in the blocks Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: audaciousbeing on February 05, 2017, 02:18:03 PM We all know that recently, a huge backlog of transaction of at least 50,000 at any point of time. And one of the solution is to increase the transaction fee. Which defeat the purpose of micro-transaction with bitcoin. Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? There is no way to avoid this as it will continue to be on the increase because we dont have a choice or else the transaction will take forever to complete. Assigning blame will not really reduce the cost but the wallet managers like Xapo or Blockchain are those that should do more to reduce the cost to a bearable minimum. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: franky1 on February 05, 2017, 02:35:59 PM any guys claiming its no ones fault, need to take a hard look at the code changes by core.
instead of being reactive depending on demand. they are now based on averages.. which if you just used a spreadsheet would see a biased change which actually makes fees increase even if demand was low take the way devs implemented the tx fee.. not only subverting coded methods of 'priority' which would have alleviated the war, but also using 'averages' which dont make the fee's drop reactively when demand is low. but actually keeps fee's up. even when one block is low demand. EG take a 25 block average.. imagine first 24 are 0.0001 and the 25th is 0.0025 then look at the 'average' after that.. even if demand was near 0 and no one was pushing the fee up.... the "average" itself pushes up https://i.imgur.com/VCsbAiH.png yep even if blocks 26-75+ were near empty with just 2 tx's paying the estimate... the fee would rise try it yourself. get a spreadsheet Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: peter0425 on February 05, 2017, 04:40:58 PM We all know that recently, a huge backlog of transaction of at least 50,000 at any point of time. And one of the solution is to increase the transaction fee. Which defeat the purpose of micro-transaction with bitcoin. Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? There is no way to avoid this as it will continue to be on the increase because we dont have a choice or else the transaction will take forever to complete. Assigning blame will not really reduce the cost but the wallet managers like Xapo or Blockchain are those that should do more to reduce the cost to a bearable minimum. So it means nothing can be done and the fees will continue to rise? Then we all gonna suffer for this because instead of the extra bitcoin that our wallet should have, should be going to the miners because of the extra fee. I know finger pointing will not help but at least the fee should be bearable for every transactions. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: BitFinnese on February 05, 2017, 05:17:12 PM No need to blame anyone! It is only natural that as the value of bitcoin increases, the transaction fees will increase also! Because the wallet provider and other bitcoin related entitied have their own expenses! Their business will come to extinction if they will maintain their current transaction fees while bitcoin value is constantly increasing! It is not the ratio of Bitcoin to USD that is increasing but the rate of Bitcoin itself. 10k satoshi was a good enough transaction fee months ago but now it is more than 30k sat sometimes going above 50k sat. I think it is the people who want to get prioritized is to be blame. Meaning the user themselves. And it seems the coded script itself. any guys claiming its no ones fault, need to take a hard look at the code changes by core. instead of being reactive depending on demand. they are now based on averages.. which if you just used a spreadsheet would see a biased change which actually makes fees increase even if demand was low take the way devs implemented the tx fee.. not only subverting coded methods of 'priority' which would have alleviated the war, but also using 'averages' which dont make the fee's drop reactively when demand is low. but actually keeps fee's up. even when one block is low demand. EG take a 25 block average.. imagine first 24 are 0.0001 and the 25th is 0.0025 then look at the 'average' after that.. even if demand was near 0 and no one was pushing the fee up.... the "average" itself pushes up https://i.imgur.com/VCsbAiH.png yep even if blocks 26-75+ were near empty with just 2 tx's paying the estimate... the fee would rise try it yourself. get a spreadsheet Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: calkob on February 05, 2017, 05:22:40 PM We all know that recently, a huge backlog of transaction of at least 50,000 at any point of time. And one of the solution is to increase the transaction fee. Which defeat the purpose of micro-transaction with bitcoin. Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? Its defiantly not the miners fault, if anything is to blame it is bitcoins success. miners are well within their right to only select the top paying transactions for each block, this is what happens in an open, decentralised, and distributed network and its a good thing :) remember bitcoin is an experiment we cant complain when that experiment takes a turn that we dont like. Use bitcoin how you like, if enough people agree that's what bitcoin will become....... Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: franky1 on February 05, 2017, 05:29:37 PM It is not the ratio of Bitcoin to USD that is increasing but the rate of Bitcoin itself. 10k satoshi was a good enough transaction fee months ago but now it is more than 30k sat sometimes going above 50k sat. I think it is the people who want to get prioritized is to be blame. Meaning the user themselves. And it seems the coded script itself. first of all there is no 'priority' there is just "pay more and hope" there are no guarantees of any transaction being accepted as a rule. there is no guarantee of if i pay X i get next block or if i pay x-10 ill guarantee to get into second block, x-20 ill get into third block. its all to do with lack of code. wher by the devs decided banker economics should be used more so than smart code rules. the switch to average rather than reactive fee mechanism the lack of a proper and more important functional 'priority' formualae the lack of holding pools to account about how they collate data. it all just leaves too many people with if's and maybe's a tx would get accepted we should not be relying on banker economics. bitcoins is suppose to be something that is not playing them silly banker games Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Bitcoinsummoner on February 05, 2017, 05:31:10 PM We all know that recently, a huge backlog of transaction of at least 50,000 at any point of time. And one of the solution is to increase the transaction fee. Which defeat the purpose of micro-transaction with bitcoin. Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? Its defiantly not the miners fault, if anything is to blame it is bitcoins success. miners are well within their right to only select the top paying transactions for each block, this is what happens in an open, decentralised, and distributed network and its a good thing :) remember bitcoin is an experiment we cant complain when that experiment takes a turn that we dont like. Use bitcoin how you like, if enough people agree that's what bitcoin will become....... Look some site there are some other solution to speedup transaction that i think it can help you to speed up confirmation So you can pay for fee below the minimum price or fee.. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: franky1 on February 05, 2017, 05:37:29 PM this is about the "spam" cries. and a way to solve it using CODE. not fee's though there are spam attacks. we need to truly stop using a umbrella term, in regards to calling lots of different types of transactions "spam". for me i consider BLOATED transactions that spend funds EVERY block an obvious spam attack. yet others treat simply spending less than 0.1btc a spam attack.(facepalm) in a world outside of america/europe. 0.01btc for instance can be a weeks wage and 0.001btc can be multiple hours of labour. for the unbanked developing countries we should not be considering something spam, purely on the basis of how much is spent, but on bloated transactions and transactions that are spent too frequently outside what appears normal spending behaviour. bitcoins 'priority' calculation are no longer appropriate, many pools dont even use it anymore. the calculation of: (value *age) / size. does not help anyone. because someone with 1000btc can respend multiple times an hour fee free. but someone with only 0.Xbtc has to wait weeks or pay a premium. victimising the poorer nations effectively thus it only makes it a calculation beneficial for the rich. the 'priority' calculation needs to change to be more about bloat and age. and not about value. eg knowing that the blocksize limits how much data is allowed. a new calculation needs to have considerations of making there be a points system for blocksize vs tx size. more so then making the value the consideration changer so that the leaner the tx size is, the more points are rewarded. which when blocksizes increases. would make the leaner transactions earn more points for staying lean. EG (blocksize/tx size)*age txsize blocksize age result 226 1000000 1 4425 10min 226 1000000 6 26549 1 hour 226 1000000 46 203540 7h 40min 450 1000000 1 2222 10min 450 1000000 6 13333 1 hour 450 1000000 90 200000 15h 100,000 1000000 1 10 10min 100,000 1000000 6 60 1 hour 100,000 1000000 144 1440 16h 40min 100,000 1000000 20160 201600 5months imagining where the priority target was 200,000 this means if super lean you can spend funds every 7 hours with priority. but being bloated (100k blocks) you have to wait months. this then makes bloated transactions PAY MORE to make up for the missing points. it also means that rich spammer cannot bypass it by just moving a larger reserve for free. ofcourse my example can include extra variables. such as if people voluntarily put in a CLTV maturity of X blocks to show they wont respend for atleast X blocks (because CLTV prevents it) they can gain extra points too EG ((blocksize/tx size)*age)*CLTV confirms. =((1000000/226)*6)*6 159292 =((1000000/226)*6)*7 185840 =((1000000/226)*6)*8 212389 which is an example of someone who naturally may want to spend every couple hours. where their funds are only an hour old. 226 1000000 6 26549 1 hour dont have to wait >6 more hours 226 1000000 46 203540 7h 40min they can just voluntarily tell the network they are happy to lock themselves into a 1hour 20minute maturity after the respend. =((1000000/226)*6)*8 212389 to get priority. meaning if you volunteer that you are not going to respend those funds for 8+ confirms. you get priority. which mitigates the respend every block true spam. because this calculation averages a 2-3 hour respend acceptable natural human timescale. it also helps by giving users an option to say it needs to be accepted sooner.(a true "hey guys i really need this to go through, but accept the punishment for this need) making the wait PRIOR to confirm less, by making the waiting time AFTER confirm, more. thus a way to show the network who actually NEEDS priority the most though a bloat spammer can just put a mega long CLTV on a bloated tx to gain priority for their first tx, they atleast once confirmed the funds wont be respent fast due to the CLTV maturity needing to be met (no matter what the priority is of the second attempt, CLTV prevents respends until mature) it makes it so that if you want to spend sooner (imagine its not maturity locked first) the sooner you want to spend the longer you have to wait to respend AFTER confirm. thus solving the wait for confirm 'trust' people getting paid dilemma EG if matured funds are only aged 3 blocks instead of 6. you have to volunteer not being able to re-spend then for 16 blocks instead of 8 =((1000000/226)*3)*14 185840 =((1000000/226)*3)*15 199115 =((1000000/226)*3)*16 212389 so that the faster you want to spend(after maturity) the longer you cant respend the second time. thus effectively stopping a spammer spending every block because they end up waiting atleast 2 hours before conditions are met though my calculation is not perfect for every instance of utility. i think that usual / natural spending behaviour of only buying things once every couple hours is normal.. and mitigating the spend every 10 minute intentional spam. for those wanting to bypass this because they GENUINELY need to spend every 10 minutes.. (not intention spam, but a niche need) such as the small niche of day traders/faucet raiders/gamblers they can use the niche market commercial LN service VOLUNTARILY to get their many spends an hour. thus having an equal balance of people that only spend lets say once a week that dont need LN can happily spend onchain. but those that do need many spends an hour can use LN... natural balance is restored im sure someone can be inspired by my idea of changing the priority calculation. by adding in or using variables in a different format to achieve something better then my example calculation formula.. and be way way better than the current priority formulae Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Kprawn on February 05, 2017, 05:44:32 PM We all know that recently, a huge backlog of transaction of at least 50,000 at any point of time. And one of the solution is to increase the transaction fee. Which defeat the purpose of micro-transaction with bitcoin. Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? Its defiantly not the miners fault, if anything is to blame it is bitcoins success. miners are well within their right to only select the top paying transactions for each block, this is what happens in an open, decentralised, and distributed network and its a good thing :) remember bitcoin is an experiment we cant complain when that experiment takes a turn that we dont like. Use bitcoin how you like, if enough people agree that's what bitcoin will become....... Look some site there are some other solution to speedup transaction that i think it can help you to speed up confirmation So you can pay for fee below the minimum price or fee.. You are missing the point here.... OP is asking who is to blame, and imo we should blame whomever is causing these spam attacks, because their goal is to sabotage the network to force people to react in the way, they want them to react. If you were a miner and you benefit from higher fees.. would you not want a situation where fees are bumped because of a backlog like this? Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Clement Kaliyar on February 05, 2017, 05:47:10 PM The core team has to come up with a solution regarding the transaction delay as well as the increasing price of transaction and if this continues like this you can imagine the amount of transaction fees they you need to input a couple of years from now.I think with the recent code changes the core are telling us that bitcoin is not meant for micro transactions.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: franky1 on February 05, 2017, 06:12:12 PM The core team already caused the issues regarding the transaction delay as well as the increasing price of transaction and if this continues like this you can imagine the amount of transaction fees they you need to input a couple of years from now.I think with the recent code changes the core are telling us that they do not want transactions onchain only commercial hub settlements. fixed that for you Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: sir.humus on February 05, 2017, 06:17:21 PM Fees will continue to increase.
For a "fee market" to evolve, there needs to be demand and suppliers. But there is only a fixed supply. If fees get high, there's no way for miners to say, "Oh fees are high, we should mine more blocks or larger blocks to capture these fees". So fees continue to increase because demand is just slightly higher than capacity. Anyone who has ever used the phrase "fee market" with respect to a fixed block size has no grasp of what is and will occur. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: d5000 on February 05, 2017, 11:20:07 PM "To blame" are all the maximalists that are unable to dialogue with people with other opinions.
If Bitcoin Core and Unlimited fanboys could reach an agreement (e.g. a conservative block size increase in exchange for segwit adoption by the large pools) then we hadn't all these problems, the Lightning lovers could develop and test their (surely interesting) network, the ordinary users still would benefit from relatively cheap onchain transactions and we all were happy. Yeah, I know I'm a delusional hippie ;D Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: franky1 on February 06, 2017, 12:19:03 AM "To blame" are all the maximalists that are unable to dialogue with people with other opinions. If Bitcoin Core and Unlimited fanboys could reach an agreement (e.g. a conservative block size increase in exchange for segwit adoption by the large pools) then we hadn't all these problems, the Lightning lovers could develop and test their (surely interesting) network, the ordinary users still would benefit from relatively cheap onchain transactions and we all were happy. Yeah, I know I'm a delusional hippie ;D stop making this a king vs king firstly the community had a roundtable at 2015 where 2mb was the compromise even those everyone including core said 8mb was still bandwidth safe. core however back peddled and denied to offer real 2mb onchain, denied natural dynamic scaling. and instead insisted that the community needed core to dictate terms and spoonfed out the features. if you ever see someone talk about "conservative" (the new 2016-2017 core promotional buzzword) )they are not talking about protecting or strengthening bitcoin. they are talking about conning to serve private representatives... anyone living in england knows how "conservatives" run things. selling out our countries assets to the highest bidder to let it be run by private companies if anyone spots someone using the term conservative as if they are defending blockstreams paid devs reason to halt natral growth. you know that the promoter is just reading a script. last years buzzword was "ad-hom troll" Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: topesis on February 06, 2017, 06:08:17 AM I would blame those party the developers and the miners, the issue of scaling shouldn't have been degenerate into this state now, I see the fight has turned to personal issue and ego. I just hope they would come up with amicable solution soon.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: marcoman22 on February 06, 2017, 07:22:33 AM We all know that recently, a huge backlog of transaction of at least 50,000 at any point of time. Its all occuring due to the limited block size and increased transactions.This issue of increasing the block size has to be solved between westerners and chinese miners.Bitcoin has progressed today very big and transactions have increased high in number and we have to believe , still only 7 transactions are performed each second. Its terribly low for such a big growing bitcoin community.When there are lots of transactions waiting, priority is only given to transactions which offer high fees.Its not good for bitcoin progress.And one of the solution is to increase the transaction fee. Which defeat the purpose of micro-transaction with bitcoin. Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: ImHash on February 06, 2017, 07:42:46 AM Most of the blocks are full 990.11 999.12 and so on but there are some blocks with the size of 0.25 can someone first tell me how is this possible?
https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000000a6acdd3ea35adda1db8c45bd2fe753d09401500e15ef7 Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Amph on February 06, 2017, 07:46:00 AM well since the whole increase in fee is because otherwise there would be even more spam, i would blame the spammers, in fact if it was not for them miners have no real reason to increase the fee even if the block is full
and miners right now don't need such a high fee for additional income, their bock reward and bitcoin value is more than enough for them to maintain the network Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Sundark on February 06, 2017, 08:21:33 AM Fees will continue to increase. As you said, you can compare using bitcoin to being part of a free market. It's not like bitcoin is the only crypto we have.For a "fee market" to evolve, there needs to be demand and suppliers. But there is only a fixed supply. If fees get high, there's no way for miners to say, "Oh fees are high, we should mine more blocks or larger blocks to capture these fees". So fees continue to increase because demand is just slightly higher than capacity. Anyone who has ever used the phrase "fee market" with respect to a fixed block size has no grasp of what is and will occur. So what will stop users from finding a better cryptocurrency? They will leave bitcoin with its high fees and miners will taste their own medicine. That is how free market works. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: 20kevin20 on February 06, 2017, 09:05:19 AM There is nobody to blame for that, lol. We can "blame" the transactions because they keep growing and that makes more transactions be forced in one block, so there is the need of the transaction fees.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: sportis on February 06, 2017, 06:47:08 PM Most of the blocks are full 990.11 999.12 and so on but there are some blocks with the size of 0.25 can someone first tell me how is this possible? https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000000a6acdd3ea35adda1db8c45bd2fe753d09401500e15ef7 If i am not mistaken this is an empty block. It's not really empty because has one transaction which is the mining reward, nowadays 12.5 btc https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085800.0. That means in this block only the coinbase transaction is included. It depends from the mining pools because there are miners who don't mine empty blocks https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/why-do-some-bitcoin-mining-pools-mine-empty-blocks-1468337739/. On the other side imo all of us we belong in bitcoin ecosystem, more or less, we are responsible because of the increased fees. Not only devs and miners but simple users we could force in order to find a viable solution with high fees. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: olushakes on February 06, 2017, 07:15:50 PM For me who is just an ordinary user without any ability to understand the technicalities surrounding bitcoin. I say there is nobody to blame whether thee miners or the wallet providers as they also set out to make profit which might not be possible if the price is not raised and might even lead to deficiency in the quality of service being offered.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: thejaytiesto on February 06, 2017, 07:21:43 PM You are difinitely correct, SegWit helps to increase the block to the suitable size, but only 20% miners agree with it, the left miners are so selfish, if btc tx is so slow, users won't use it at all, miners will cry, they are too naive to refuse SegWit. More than 20% and those miners who lingering just wait to test in on Lightcoin. Litecoin activating segwit is unfortunately not a viable test-scenario, so I don't know where people are drawing conclusion from this. In any case segwit is safer than BU, it is the next logical step. Bitcoin's segwit is way safer than Litecoin's. In fact, if something goes wrong on Litecoin's wegit, im sure the big blockers will use it to further add more FUD into segwit. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: gentlemand on February 06, 2017, 07:55:21 PM What seems to have slipped multiple minds is that Bitcoin is rather more expensive than it used to be compared to a short while back.
If this carries on, and it shows not too many signs of slowing down, it's going to be very interesting to see where everyone's breaking point is. There'll come a time when most simply won't want to transact any more. For almost everyone Bitcoin usage is nowhere near a necessity. It's a cool luxury to get involved with. They'll wander off when they feel they're being worked over. Maybe that'll mean the people who really need it are left, or perhaps those too will switch to a less strangulated option. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: ImHash on February 07, 2017, 05:31:12 PM Most of the blocks are full 990.11 999.12 and so on but there are some blocks with the size of 0.25 can someone first tell me how is this possible? https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000000a6acdd3ea35adda1db8c45bd2fe753d09401500e15ef7 If i am not mistaken this is an empty block. It's not really empty because has one transaction which is the mining reward, nowadays 12.5 btc https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085800.0. That means in this block only the coinbase transaction is included. It depends from the mining pools because there are miners who don't mine empty blocks https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/why-do-some-bitcoin-mining-pools-mine-empty-blocks-1468337739/. On the other side imo all of us we belong in bitcoin ecosystem, more or less, we are responsible because of the increased fees. Not only devs and miners but simple users we could force in order to find a viable solution with high fees. What did this miner do to deserve a 12.5BTC? where is the proof of work? the coinbase transaction shouldn't even exist before the proof of work been presented to the network. This is next block https://blockchain.info/block-height/451631 This is previous block https://blockchain.info/block-height/451629 Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Bitcoinsummoner on February 07, 2017, 06:40:45 PM I think we dont need to blame other because of the fee increase since bitcoin is very low fee unlike other payment method.. so its a normal that the fee is increasing due to mining is not profitable and it can help to increase the fee to help miners to stay long in this field..
This is what i thought and heard by someone.. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: South Park on February 07, 2017, 07:11:01 PM We all know that recently, a huge backlog of transaction of at least 50,000 at any point of time. It is useless to point fingers, since everyone part of the bitcoin community is partially at fault, the users are at fault because they keep sending bigger and bigger fees instead of refusing to do so, the miners are guilty too and the devs must find a way to stop the ones that are spamming the network with their code and they have not do it.And one of the solution is to increase the transaction fee. Which defeat the purpose of micro-transaction with bitcoin. Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: bitbunnny on February 07, 2017, 07:17:36 PM No one likes big fees but I'm not sure if there is anyone to be blamed for that. That is how the rules are, miners have to get their fee, users have to take their part, we are all part of same community and we agreed to that. I'm not sure that we have choice or that there is something we could do about the fees.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: deisik on February 07, 2017, 07:56:56 PM Fees will continue to increase. For a "fee market" to evolve, there needs to be demand and suppliers. But there is only a fixed supply. If fees get high, there's no way for miners to say, "Oh fees are high, we should mine more blocks or larger blocks to capture these fees". So fees continue to increase because demand is just slightly higher than capacity. Anyone who has ever used the phrase "fee market" with respect to a fixed block size has no grasp of what is and will occur. I tend to disagree If the Lightning Network update gets approved (or something else which works along the same lines), we will see exactly that, i.e. a truly "fee market" emerging, and then miners will have to compete with the nodes providing payment channels for lesser fees. That's basically the reason why most miners are so hostile to any updates, not even LN itself. If they accept SegWit, for example, that will essentially open the door for future updates as well, and the profits they receive through mining fees will likely decline Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: bravehearth0319 on February 10, 2017, 07:10:50 AM We all know that recently, a huge backlog of transaction of at least 50,000 at any point of time. And one of the solution is to increase the transaction fee. Which defeat the purpose of micro-transaction with bitcoin. Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? As I observed if the blockchain are being overloaded by the transaction, the fees is getting higher, the unconfirmed transaction increase. I think there is a group behind this transactions, I don't know if this DDOS correct me if I'm wrong. :-\ Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: requester on February 10, 2017, 10:20:59 AM We bitcoin user should blame ourself only because as the rate of bitcoin is increasing day by day so its transaction fees will also increase since it value is increasing but the problem is miners who confirms those transactions where they get high fees first so someone is paying high fees so for him we also should compete with him to make our transaction get confirmed faster.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Blawpaw on February 10, 2017, 10:54:49 AM The transactions fee cost is going higher and higher because of the ever increasing of the number of transactions. Everyday the number of bitcoin transactions is increasing and the network is not prepared to handle such a big number of transactions. So in order to make sure the transactions go through, users are paying for higher fees. The only viable solution to this issue for now is increasing the Block size in order to fit a lot more transaction in each block, but it seems that this can cause all sort of new attack vectors. That’s why it is still not implemented and that’s why many of the community members do not agree with it.
Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: Pettuh4 on February 10, 2017, 11:34:57 AM We all know that recently, a huge backlog of transaction of at least 50,000 at any point of time. And one of the solution is to increase the transaction fee. Which defeat the purpose of micro-transaction with bitcoin. Is this the miners fault alone? Who do you think need to step up to stop this madness of increasing transaction fees? What's your thought about it? Yes I will blame the miners for monetizing Bitcoin transactions. I feel there must be a standard setup to regulate this because it's gradually getting out of hand and it can make Bitcoin unpopular. Title: Re: Who to blame for the increasing transaction fee? Post by: BitcoinHodler on February 10, 2017, 11:42:53 AM instead of trying to find someone to point the blaming finger at, i think it is best to try and find a solution for the problem and then when the solution were found we should try and find some way of enforcing that solution to take place instead of waiting around for years so that maybe miners accept it or not.
|
