Bitcoin Forum

Just to match with the other thread.. :P

Although I think it may raise back to 100$...  Or it may settle to 60$ as the new "standard"...  Or it may have a depressing few months lowering back to single digit ???  If only one could tell, then market exchanges just wouldn't exists the way it does now ;D

For the first time though, it may be better to put your money in gold...  Hey, after all, it only dropped 10% yesterday, that's still doing a whole lot better than Bitcoins.

Since yesterday

Bitcoin: -50%
Gold:    -10%

So, if you had 100$ Gold vs BTC yesterday, you would end up today with 90$ Gold vs 50$ BTC today
80% advantage Gold!

Well well...  What can we do ::)

Gold is tangible and has more usage and adoption than Bitcoin.  Gold has been used as currency for 700+ years and has charts that go back that far.  This is hardly surprising to those here on earth.  As for those in la la land well I think they are starting to wake up.

I've been a purchaser of gold today in fact, hard to conceive it will not be a good investment long term. I'm sitting out the bitcoin market just now. I'll be a bitcoin buyer again when I feel the time is right, but expecting a few months of consolidation first.

With the market going up gold should remain very volatile.  I'm sitting on the sidelines for a while but would love to buy more gold coins.  I sold all mine as soon as it went back down to $1700 again.  Might be a good time to play volatility if you are a high risk investor.  Just make sure you know how to leverage or are prepared to hold for a long time.

Gold went down because Goldman Sachs (evil thieves) told clients to short gold on the COMEX.  While they are right and gold has been a bubble for years they induced a panic sell.

Gold is such a poor investment choice and has so little value in real terms (except the value that the market places on it). We have no idea what the limit is on gold. We do not control the supply. It's practical uses in electronics give it a super tiny fraction of value compared to what the market places on it. It's shiny, so ancient people desired it as a symbol of wealth, and that still lingers today.

Bitcoins bring the possiblity of a structured currency like we've never seen before. I would take bitcoins as a long term investment over gold any day. Actually, I would rather invest in matches or bricks over gold. At least those don't have some super unrealistic value placed on them.

Gee.  There's a job for you at one of the Exxon-funded climate change denial organizations.

At $65, bit coin is up HUGE from a year ago, or two years ago.

But you're going to use yesterday's price vs. today's price as a valid statistical comparator?  Really?

Cherry pick much?

I'm not sure that gold has more usage than Bitcoin. I can't buy anything with gold bars. I'm sure people would give me stuff for them, but no where near what the gold is worth (unless I exchange it for cash). I can buy tons of things with Bitcoins, and that is growing every day. Gold is a very impractical investment and currency.

Half my family works there and I'm happy with my six figure salary but, thanks for the advice.  It isn't cherry picking it is reality and risks vs. less risks.  Get a clue.

You can fill your teeth, you can sell jewellery, you can make the ram and CPU that goes in your computer.  It is used in your car.  I heard last year Silk Road did 22 million dollars worth of drug trade which is a drop in the bucket.  My uncle who went to federal prison made millions off of pot in the 1980s in one Texas city to give you an idea (estimates are pot is a 6 billion dollar industry).  Not one Bitcoin was used to do anything other than for a little trade and speculation.  Currently over 4 tonnes of gold are being consumed per year.  I totally have been saying for years that gold is in a speculative bubble however, to say a bitcoin has more use than gold is blind ignorance.  If another virtual currency gets adopted due to volatility and MtGox how much will your bitcoins be worth?  Easy answer here, zero.

How much Bitcoin transfers are actual usage and not just speculation trading?  Does anyone know the answer?  Please enlighten us.

Actually, you WERE cherry picking. BTC Books has a clue, you do not. Taking a one-day price movement vs a many-month price movement and arbitrarily using that as a judgement criteria for gold vs. bitcoins.

If you bought bitcoins at $0.012/mBTC in December '12 and now they're $0.06/mBTC, you've realized much higher gains than gold. Still, I'm picking a random arbitrary time period. But picking one day's price movement is just hilarious and I can't believe you actually deny that you are cherry picking. What a jokester.  ;D ;D ;D

When did I take a one day price movement???? Please quote it.  I bought BTC at $14 and less and sold it at $230.  That is hardly in one day.  If you go back and read my first thread before we were over $100 you would see that.  In the same thread I called the bubble and posted about 1 hour before the top at $266 saying I had sold 12 hours earlier at $230.

I said Gold has a 700 year history as a currency versus Bitcoin.  That is one day?  Puff puff pass jokesteress.

Perhaps it might ameliorate your high dudgeon to note that my post - to which, for some reason, you took offense - was in response to the OP, and to the OP only.

Ok yes this thread had me completely confused. I had recently made a remark about Exxon in another thread and was thinking your reply was in regards to that.  Carry on sorry for being lost.  I guess I shouldn't post to forums while I'm working.  ;D

Its not gold. Its a paper where wrote that this is gold. This paper costs shit.

and your completely false assumption is that gold has more use just because it's been around longer.
it's like people who are too afraid to know that the world is not flat or that there is gravity.
just because people have been doing or using something for a long time does not validate it as anything better than it is.
gold is just shiny. that is all. who cares how much it costs
the only way i would ever even buy gold is if i was a millionaire looking for a quick way to blow my money.
gold is hardly a true investment besides speculators and is mostly an outdated store of value.
that is all.

It's paper, but it proves your ownership of the gold. Demand for gold is going up, not down, this is market manipulation.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/thomaspascoe/100024081/the-gold-price-crash-is-further-evidence-of-market-rigging/ (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/thomaspascoe/100024081/the-gold-price-crash-is-further-evidence-of-market-rigging/)
EDIT: BUY BUY BUY Gold, before you can't.

who needs a paper for gold?
sure it's market manipulation now.. as are bitcoins

4 tonnes of consumption is suddenly an assumption?  You should try research, Google is your friend.

i know it's consumed. so are diamonds and i'm sure google will teach you all about diamond prices

Yeah I don't believe paper gold is equal to the amount of real gold.  This is why in the past I only bought gold coins.  They are worth more than Gold unless you melt them.  Forget paper gold.  That is just another banking scam gone wild.

DeBeers has massive vaults of diamonds they hold to inflate prices.  Gold has the opposite problem in that there is actually a much more limited amount of it.  There is no company hiding away gold.

Also you can make synthetic diamonds that can be used like real diamonds.  There is no synthetic gold that has the same metallic properties.  Highly conductive, bio compatibility, does not tarnish etc. etc.

I agree that bitcoin is the better money, but I disagree there is not limit.  All known gold is very expensive to mine, so if the price falls below that cost, no more gold.  Unknown gold is unlikely to be cheaper to mine.

That said, I wouldn't buy gold at today's prices.

Gold is shiny forever though! you can bury it for 10 thousand years then put it in the sea for 10,000 years then spend it. Also it is fungible n stuff.

I love how the OP has such a narrow time focused view. lol

TUNNEL VISION:

"Look the price went from $266 to $50. Gold went from $1600 to $1300.

Ignore the previous price action because it is irrelevant."

lol  ;D ;D ;D

Funny OP :)

It be very expensive for me to pay someone in gold.

Just for fun Im in Panama and say I bought something for 10 grams of gold.

How much would it cost me to get that gold bar to you?

How much does it cost to get the bitcoin to you?

Fiat cost ranges from %1.5 to %7 depending on the send method (they eventually have to transport the paper bills to the other bank)

Gold has its uses and perhaps as a long term investment to eventually sell to a dentist its perfect. But its completely impractical as a payment system infrastructure.

Hopefully history will record that this crash was a pivotal global economic event, as it seems that the Tory-Trotskyite Federal Reserve Gold Pharaoh Mensheviks, flush with their countless boatloads of worthless "Our-Slaves-Owe-Us"- Note "quantitative counterfeit" bogus-treasury scrip, seem to have moved in on our BTC-Securitized Future Derivative Contracts to stake their Bilderberg Masters out a big position in Our gold-killing, highly utilitarian, durable, secure, untraceable and versatile new digital Medium of Labour-Exchange Currency, by hostile takeover, and just decided to perform a little "stress test" on it before they move in on our Reserve Exchanges for the final kill.

Then they hope to grab an enslavement monopoly on it like the one they have long enjoyed, capitalized from, derived from and molested us with employing their gold, which will surely be nearly obsoleted by it as a usable, deflationary "money" in and of itself. (anything proffered as "gold" may always just be plated tungsten)

BUT - Bitcoin has a SEVERE problem with "exchanges" that inanely want to try to behave as "stock markets" (gang-spikers with tire shops).

What they are doing with their "BTC-Securitized Future Derivative Contracts" now is:

• Punishing small buyers and all new "casual" users adopting the currency with the highest fees
  
  
• Punishing small sellers and all new "casual" and small retailers adopting (redeeming) the currency with the highest fees
  
  
• Rewarding speculative traders, leeching off of the daily spreads or ramps of the currency value with lower fees for greater churning "volumes over days" rewards
  
  
• Rewarding big, huge-trader Pharaohs for staking out far riskier out of bounds idle-preying positions, not actually expected to "exchange", that would facilitate steep uncontrollable risks to the currency value by extending sudden random ramps or slides to ludicrous and/or disastrous extremes.
  
  
• They are actually encouraging and rewarding speculation and volatility with their risky, counter-productive and suicidal, totally ignorant volume-discount fee nonsense.

This BTC future-securitized derivative-contract was intended as OUR transnational MEDIUM OF LABOUR-EXCHANGE CURRENCY not as somebody else's silly common commodity-resource share! (or wasn't it?  ???)

Well regulating the Bitcoin  future-securitized derivative-contract's currency value "automatically" is a simple trick that can easily be done through the trading (vs exchanging) fee structures. You simply punish people progressively and exponentially more through sliding fees for staking-out asks and bids further out of bounds, to negate the benefits of pump and dump, while still allowing a bit of churning reward for day-value trading and/or price reward for patient bargain-seeking bid-ask haggling.

The problem with the fiat nature of BTC-derivative trading is that "democracy" (even so-called "free" market laissez-faire) is no way to run a well regulated Supra-National Global Labour Exchange Currency system! The hallmark of a Adam Smith sort of Freed Market is that it is always well-regulated. The hallmark of the "stable currency" value of a Medium of Labour-Exchange (Currency) is it's retention of an assured (or assuredly increasing) value for the length of a contract and most-any exchanging or commercial transaction and the periods of it's saving.

You see a Bitcoin is simply a derivative that only represents the LOOT or SERVICES that the guy that you got it off, got out of you for it, and made off with. It is a fiat "futures derivative contract" that arguably has some but really has no certain inherent added-value. Like a "gold contract' or "mortgage backed security' (I love that last word) derivative it is a "BTC -securitized Future Derivative Contract" that merely allows you to keep, transfer it in, transfer it around or transfer it somewhere else to resell it there for whatever it may seem to be worth to the next guy, a minimum of an hour from now.

The challenge the Bitcoin Nation now has is to develop a self-regulating set of automatic trading (fiat value voting) rules that advantage, reward and encourage staid and conservative trade-exchange, over reasonable and tiny fractional ranges about current values, yet HARSHLY and PROGRESSIVELY, EXPONENTIALLY PUNISH out of range (more volatile) bidding and asking with exorbitantly prohibitive fees, thereby automatically attenuating, limiting and shutting down volatile ramp-ups and slides in the preciously guarded DURABLE VALUE of our new currency...

Everything is a "scam" unless you do your homework, and find out it's perfectly legal and legitimate.

Read this:  Bubbles with bitcoins
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=175708.msg1832923#msg1832923

We are not doing anything nearly as lawless nor clearly as fraudulent as pawning off Mortgage Backed Security Future Derivative Contracts! Our contracts have real utility as a durably physical future security derivative.

Unless civilization and communication collapse tomorrow, gold is dead it's just that few really know about why it is destined to happen, how (perfectly lawful Bitcoin) or why.

BTC marks the freeing emancipation of all of the humans on this planet from our nation's enslavement of us and all the fruits of all of our labors to their gold-Pharaoh masters. This will be the final global-human vs global-economic battle, and it is between us all and the Bilderberg enslavers.

Just in case of global thermonuclear war I'm keeping my gold, but I dumped all my silver months ago to buy Bitcoin.

Despite the fact that it's finite commodity-resource nature and near universal desirability make it a good, relativistic and reasonably deflationary measure of value of the inflation of the "current" measure of the value of the ever-growing prime commodity which is human labour, it's a totally clumsy, impractical, costly insecure and easily counterfeited excuse for the stably inflationary temporality of value necessary to/of a providable and easily portable and securable Medium of Labour-Exchange Currency-Token utility.

You simply cannot use another finite, limited (and likely monopolized already) commodity-resource (gold, silver or DaVinci paintings) to represent an infinite and limitless and ever growing commodity (the value of the sum of the fruits of all human labors). In such a national economy a third child robs the whole rest of the country (as so do the first two for a while).

What such a foolishly-pegged to another commodity-value dual-use conundrum in a nation's people's Labor Exchange Currency inevitably causes is assured monetary slavery! Sooner or later by means foul or fair one economic "winner (or boardroom-socialist group of them) will inevitably come close to owning all of the available gold or platinum or DaVincis etc and all of the means to produce/find any much more of it! Thereafter everyone in the economy must go to the "winners" cap in hand to rent from them either their token of "their gold" or their worthless fiat token that they mint which is backed only by some fraction of the influence of their unsurpassed counterfeiting wealths just to use a pay toilet!

Gold's really just a generic, second-rate Medium of Savings dangerous, troublesome and costly to stock/assay and exchange with, that is a poor substitute for truly rare and precious Mediums of Savings like fine art, antiques and collectables.

Im surprised to see so much gold hate by people who like bitcoin. BTC is easier to spend snd transfer, but like gold its value is not based on its inherent value. What is a 256 bit private key, some bites on a computer worth?

The value of each comes from their inherent property. Scarcity, inability to make forgeries, transferable, and easy to store. Why maintain vehicles, property, etc when you can just hold onto a few bars of gold or some BTC?

They serve the same functions for the same reasons. BTC has more ease of use, but gold is more stable and longer tested as a commodity that serves as money.

Dear OP,

When you can email me some gold, i'll give up devoting my life to BTC for your emailed gold.

Sincerely,

Crypt_Current

+1

Also,
Agentbluescreen, I like your thoughts on exchanges creating incentive mechanisms to discourage volatility. I think that exchanges might realize it is in their long-term best interest to see BTC survive, and while the short-term gains are realized best from big, fast, scary swings up and down, this is really the quickest way to kill BTC and therefore destroy the very basis of their existence. Imagine if the stock market were as volatile as BTC... the economy would be a mess! This is a currency we're talking about, not a penny stock. The best part is, we don't even need any sort of government regulation or oversight - we'd just need the biggest, most popular exchanges to start THINKING and acting like exchanges. For instance, not allowing even a SECOND of lag because this is simply not how a professional exchange operates. If your system doesn't work, pull the plug until it's fixed. Blind trading makes you lots of money in the short term due to panic sells, but is really dangerous for any market in the long run.

Well this is the whole deal. Certainly it has to always continue to rise in value or "gradually deflate" (simply our profits or "interest" for adopting and spreading the adoption and wider use, ever-more widely of our "money") but we can't ever be pleased to see it inflate, such that we all lose!!

So not only should those "Bitcoin Pharaohs" who have profited most immensely from it be eager to support it, but our exchanges have to stop thinking like penny-stock markets, by actually assisting speculators to long and short it excessively without any sturdy disincentives to deter or make such deliberately mischievous activities unprofitable.

It's not like you don't know what's going on when you see the same traders high frequency bidding your basis up with low volume "egg-on" buy/sells. By permitting out of range bids to execute at the same cost single player can rapidly bid the price up 20-30% by burning through as little as a hundred bucks, then sell his thousands into it.

So really it's quite a simple and automatic dampening system you need like an "arithmetic shock absorber". There are two things you have to control, the number of and value-levels of (valid, permissible) bid/ask slots about the "current basis", and a progressive scale of "trading slot fees" that increase exponentially the further they deviate from the "current basis" value.

Of course you may need to keep (out of range) buy-limits there too,(without fee penalty) for support.

So you accomplish three goals; making simple exchanges at current value the "cheapest fee trades", and you make wildly out of range bids or asks that may stampede the market in either direction costly to place the further they go, you keep bids and asks within a given "basis-centric" range and ladder, while you still preserve "support level" bids.

The way I see it is a mechanism that (profitably for the exchanges and us all) simply impedes bubbles, without breaking the laws of supply and demand.