Bitcoin Forum

PROJECT CANCELLED - No customer funds were ever collected

1) Still have not received sample chips although it has been 6 weeks since my order
2) Have been unable to recruit a team of engineers
3) Have devoted insufficient time to the project
4) have decided that taking pre-order money to finance project would be a huge financial risk due to intolerably high likelihood of project failure presented by 1-3
5) post left up for posterity

Product offered for sale:
Modular mining device Made in the USA by Big Time Coin using chips bought from Avalon.

Batch size: 500 devices

Specs: 90 GH/s average hashrate per device

1 chip provides 282 MH/s
8 chips per Hash Unit
10 Hash Units per Module
4 modules per device
Power consumption of <900 W
1000 Watt PSU (optional)
4 large heat sinks
3 120mm fans.

Pricing: 75 bitcoin per device, plus additional cost shipping or remote hosting options.

Comparison to Avalon batch 1: 4U rack mount case with easier case access, lighter case, and
improved cable management. Customer service provided.  Remote hosting option.  Shipping
domestic for U.S. customers. Shipping from U.S. to international customers.

Estimated Ship Date: Shipping begins July 22, all devices shipped by August 12.  Devices
shipped strictly in first in, first out order.  Earliest time and date on pre-order payment
shipped first.

Estimated Timeline: Order first 10,000 chips - April 17, 2013 (already done)
Order remaining 190,000 chips allowed to single customer on or before April 29, 2013.
Recieve reference design of non-chip device components including PCB and FPGA on May 1, 2013
Order PCB and FPGA components on or before May 15, 2013.
Design and order custom case kits on or before May 15, 2013.
Recieve sample chips on or before May 27, 2013
Chips shipped from China to USA in 9-10 weeks, assume 1 week transit and customs.
Use time in June to assemble testing devices, plan assembly, prepare assembly facility,
stock all required supplies and parts, orient, integrate, and train company team.
Recieve production chips at assembly facility on or before July 15, 2013.  
Assemble, test, and ship or remote host all 500 devices to customers by August 12, 2013.

Pre-Order information:

The current plan is to team up with BIPS (bips.me) to handle Pre-Order customer database information and payment collection.  
Pre-orders will be opened prior to April 29, 2013 for the 500 unit pre-order, exact time and date to be announced in this thread.  
Bitcoin is the only accepted form of payment.

Hiring: We will be hiring immediately electrical, computer, and software engineers at a
competitive salary with benefits available.  If you wish to be considered for a position,
submit your resume with cover letter to the e-mail listed on my profile page.  Off-forum
recruitment will also occur and forum membership earns no preference in recruitment.
All  applicants must pass a pre-employment background check and drug screen.  Start date for
positions will be as early as May 1, 2013.  Applicants need significant experience in ASIC,
PCB and/or FPGA design, production, and electronics assembly.  Other positions as needed. Must
be willing to relocate to Roswell, NM immediately.  Relocation assistance available for the
right applicant(s). We will be hiring and training 5-10 assembly techs beginning with 1
master tech in 4 weeks when we recieve the sample modules, the rest while the chips are
enroute from China.

Equity: The company wants to issue equity in some form in the future, hopefully to the
community at large by taking advantage of the USA JOBS act that allows some exceptions to
the SEC rules regarding issuing securities to non-accredited investors.  This aspect of our
operation is a prospect that is not guaranteed and for the time being BTC is operating as a
closely held company.  If there is any down time in the frantic rush to meet the tight
deadlines we are setting for ourselves that time will be used to explore this exciting
option.

Contingencies: If Avalon fails to deliver the chips on time, the estimated dates cannot be met.  
If they fail to deliver the chips at all, the devices cannot be constructed.  Avalon has agreed to sell
the chips to Big Time Coin but has no other affiliation or association with this project.

Refunds:  Refunds are offered on a common sense basis where good cause is shown for the breach
of contract to buy.  Only the portion of the payment that was not forwarded on for chip purchase can be
refunded prior to receipt of chip shipment.  After chip shipment recieved and tested, BTC will
attempt to issue bitcoin refunds from the chip purchase portion of customer orders if possible.  
Non-chip-ordering payment portions will be converted into US Dollars and all non-chip-ordering
portion refunds will be processed using US Dollars.

Website currently under construction - launch will be announced in this thread www.bigtimecoin.com

reserved

 preorder with funds due upfront?  Another one

lawl

IHAIPBWNR75B

Good luck

Too expensive...

So this will have 320 chips in at 0.076 each, that is about 24.32BTC of chips. So why is the rest of the hardware worth 50BTC?

I would be willing to pay maybe ~40BTC. Even the DIY effort to create a 10 chip device would come in around the 50BTC mark to match your hashing. Ie 32 devices at 0.86BTC and 80 euros each (effectively 1.66BTC) per device. On a larger design you should be able to reduce costs not double them.


Phil

I think this is because of pre-packaging and labor. DIY will probably not be plug and play. This pricing is competitive in that aspect, and I would be interested if the could be delivered earlier.

What is there like a manual on setting up these "companies?"

Pics or it didn't happen ::)

You did not include Zefir's taxes and customs fees, so 10 chips from him are 0.86 * 1.1 = 0.946, and 80 Euros is 0.94 BTC right now, not 0.8 BTC, so your 32 Burnin devices would be about 60 BTC.

Then you have to buy power supplies to run them all, and USB hubs to connect them all, and maybe a Raspberry Pi as an executor.

75 BTC isn't looking all that bad, if this is as plug-and-play as an Avalon.

Ok fine lets say 60BTC, but they are packing this into a single device. That means 1 power supply, rack, no usb hubs, but in a single unit, where costs of the diy unit should become non existent. So to me it should cost a lot less than the diy effort.

At the end of the day of they can't make it cost less than the diy unit they have issues. Or are just looking at the Avalon pricing for batch 3 and hoping people go for the same.

Phil

Let me know if you could do one for me ...

You haven't priced in the power supplies for the 32 DIY units, or the hubs, or the executors. Or the hassle of dealing with 32 separate units.

Personally, I'm kind of leary about spending 75 BTC now for something that won't be delivered until *at least* mid August, but I don't think 75 is out of line with the DIY (which is expecting delivery one month earlier, but is in a similar situation of not having a finalized design so who knows).

Also, just because their pricing makes sense doesn't mean they aren't a scam. That has yet to be determined.

Ya, it should costs a lot less, degree of difficulty is increasing and we earn less from mining but are charging more for their product and they need upfront payment with no guarantee on delivery and delivery date?

Please troll less. The price is fine. Not interested ? Move on.

I am not trolling, if this was priced under 50 I would be on it. I think that a single unit should be cheaper than 32 individual units. And what they are currently saying it it is not.

If the could explain the difference and it is reasonable I will say fine, and could still order one. Anyway made my comments, if price changes as I say I could offer one.

Phil

Phil

Payment up front? Yet to hire? Massive uncertainty as to future? 75B? ........

Thanks I'll give this one a miss.

 too many unanswered questions..  Timing sucks, August.  Price is fine, just timing and etc etc

Do yourself and us a favor and take the preorder out of it.  It doesn't fly anymore.  Front the cash yourself to finish it up and you will have customers lined up to get at 'real stock' when you are ready.

[/end thread]

This.

Preorders have become a question of whether customers take the risk now or the business does. Given the amount of fly-by-night operators and ASIC start ups - along with the BFL fiasco - I don't think you'll find many willing to accept the risk as a customer any more.

I am willing to sell my body, and a certificate awarding you ownership of my soul.

Please PM me.

lol. Body for Bitcoins? wow

Seconded.

Third.

[WTS] Human kidney for bitcoins.

Step one:

Good sir, would you kindly provide the name of youre ceo, cfo, owner, founder, and or the location of youre main offices as well as a phone number and social links along with a piece of hair from youre first born, some drul from your dogs drinking bowl, a gummy bear with youre thumb print smushed on it and youre dob. Last but not least please provide a photo of any person you see at least once a week, a business card from a local bar, some leaves or tree samples from youre residence, the last 4 of youre license plate, the name of the last hospital you went to, youre receipt from avalon, a picture of youre smile, youre mothers first name, and please write this sentence in youre hand writing:  ------->  the quick brown fox jumped over the blazing red asic.




Step two: ? to be announced



Step three: reserved


Step four: reserved


Step five: reserved

Step six: reserved
 


Thank you and kindly take this post as an official present and welcome wagon to the im selling an asic section of these here great forums.

If youre legit than this should make you chuckle, if youre not legit, be very afraid! Step four is a dooooozy! May require surgery after!
lolz

I think you should change your forum name to something that doesn't sounds like "Big Time Con"  ;)

Seriously though, 75 BTC is a bit much considering Avalon is going to sell a Batch 4 half-size 45 GH/s ASIC machine at a less than 40 BTC based on the ROI formula Yifu used (ROI within 45 days at double difficulty at the time of shipment?), but it should be less than the BTC per GH/s price of the Batch 3 Avalon machines since the difficulty went up.  Besides, Avalon has proven their ability to execute and they have the system and personnel in place to produce...  whereas you are pre-selling your system and hiring an engineering team to make your system on the same post?  What are your qualification and motivation?

 ;D  ;D  :D  :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jgBD3mjBTQ

Seems legit.

Some of my Qualifications:  Experienced at operating a business.  Aside from my law practice, I have been involved in 3 bitcoin businesses:
1) My own private mining operation with GPU and now Avalon devices beginning in June 2011, business still operational and successful, run by myself.
2) CEO and co-founder of short-lived startup DialCoin, which attempted to allow people to buy bitcoin and send bitcoin via SMS.  Failed due to high marginal cost for customers and significant fraud from people buying pre-paid sim cards with stolen credit cards.  Business defunct, no current affiliation.
3) Co-founder of Bitcoin Magazine, was the first founder to resign from the company, around time of issue 1, which company has since gone through a few management changes.  Business operational and successful, though I have no affiliation with the company and take no credit for their success.

Some of my Motivations:
1) My bitcoin mining operation is potentially making more revenue than my law practice, largely due to the increase in price of bitcoin, leading me to believe that I should perform a career change and focus 100% of my productive employment towards the bitcoin economy.
2) I want to maintain the security and de-centralization of the bitcoin network.  With Avalon selling large numbers of chips to private mining companies that are not going to be offering consumer mining devices, the risk of one organization gaining too much hashing power and control of the network is too great to allow to go unchecked. 
3) I see a lot of engineers that post on the forums and are really into mining but still have to work their day jobs because they can't make enough off just bitcoin to make it a career.  I want to hire people that want to commit 100% to bitcoin and not have to take a cut in pay, get them all in the same place, and make a successful company.
4) Bitcoin mining is currently a $100 to $150 million per year market with only 3 device manufacturers.  There is plenty of room for competition.  I also expect year-over-year growth in market size to be 25% to 100% as the adoption rate of bitcoin, volume of transactions, and the price increases.

The Hard part:  Creating jobs in the bitcoin economy.  Looking for people that can do this work and want to go 100% for bitcoin economy with their future career.  You really have to believe in bitcoin and want to see it succeed, as I do.

There isn't even a place for me to put my jobs posting.  There is no bitcointalk.org jobs post board that I can see.  I posted in project development:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=180315.msg1882000#msg1882000

This is a great effort - good luck!

And to respond to "pics or it didn't happen":

Office and assembly is move in ready to get going May 1 and the first set of chips have been ordered.

http://imageshack.us/a/img441/6126/20130419134339.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img819/2183/20130419134055.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img845/7616/20130419133957.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img543/2892/20130419133909.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img24/7986/chipsorderedcropped.png

God speed good sir!

You are gman
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-Man_(Half-Life)

Anyway, your added value price is too high.

+1  It's like BFL brought its retarded cousin it to try their hand at scamming.

this.

I wish you were East Coast, B.T.C. I'd ask to help out part time.

I had to look...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1a/HalfLife_GMan.jpg

LO Freaking L

I think saying 'providing benefits' is a bit much..  you know this operation is a one-off so I don't know who you get to relocate and think they got a career for one batch

multiple batches wont sell at that price point.. in fact you might have problems selling your whole first batch at that price unless you can deliver next month

avalon going to make 2 mod units.. so how u compete with that?

Man so many skeptics. I hope he's successful. We need more competition and "real" companies that build "real" products. Avalon is out there but built in god knows where. BFL is vaporware (they've been sitting on my order for 9 months and it *sucks*).  Avalon is looking to just sell chips, heck there's lots of room for small, and smart companies to build ASIC systems right here in the USA.  I for one hope you're immensely successful. 

I agree with the comment that people may not want to move though, this is risky. You should consider a remote setup where people can do work virtually. After all this is the internet age. If you're looking for a good computer architect let me know, I might be able to help you out w/ some of the designs.

What I want to know is how you can get off saying you can produce these units by July. What I see is a empty building and what I want to see is an Engineer or two at least doing some preliminary designs. Have you even hired an Engineer?

Honestly, the ASIC market is just opening up, and as far as Bitcoin goes nobody outside of the initial startup companies really know what they're doing. Why do you think Avalon and BFL have had so many drawbacks?

I want specs. I want legitimate estimates on power, and whether you can actually produce the desired throughput. The chips may be capable of 282MH/s each, but that depends on the configuration.

Even if your proposal is legitimate, I want to see some amount of progress instead of "Pay me now and I'll show you my progress when I actually start."

secret ASIC project?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=180877.0

$8000 for 90GH?  wow.

Hey big time.. Thanks for obliging, are you actually having thoughts of hosting all 500? What coast are you on btw.. you have pickup option? I wish youre timing was better as well as youre price point since i havent grabbed an asic yet and time is an issue. Thats said ill still be on the lookout for this thread and youre venture.. good luck..




Ps: Tho we were impressed with the leaves or tree samples, we still need the dog drool, the gummy bear, the last hospital and the last 4 of your plates! rofl ;D



Best,
Zedicus

@Big Time Coin,

I saw in another thread that you are having trouble hiring engineers.


I think that's only partially correct (your claim stemming from the sentiment that Bitcoin could ultimately be an ephemeral thing). I think the biggest part, however, is:


I know that I was very excited reading this up to this point in the job ad (and I currently have a job as an EE). But, well, its very nice (albeit expensive) living in California.  :)

I know that contracting engineers out of state may be unsettling, but if you define the conditions correctly (i.e. always be available to call/email/Skype during certain times, required daily/weekly reports, etc.) it may be less of an issue than you think. Anyway, it may be the only way you can gain traction in hiring.

I wish you luck! I'm planning on designing my own small Avalon ASIC-based device, with a focus on being sexxxy.  :D

Soon as that datasheet hits, its gonna be an all-caffeine, no-sleep kinda month....

if price wise is much much cheaper and can get this baby out by June and we no need to pay up front... some of us may consider provided you can guarantee your delivery..

>$100 per GH is about 3 months for 100% ROI NOW, but in August? Nah, pass.

Only 3 fans while Avalon has 6? How does that work out?

Avalon has 3 fans and two empty holes  ;)

The idea is to copy a batch 3 Avalon 4 module unit as closely as possible, with a lower overall cost, due to the absence of the legacy costs Avalon had to still recoup during batch 3 sales.

Price is too high for that delivery date.  You need to rethink that.

Your price to expensive ... degree of difficulty will increase and members will earn less .. if you half the price and meet june deadline .. you may get a chance!

Numbers are a bit high, but I think that's because he's invested in the idea already without having Engineers on staff.

I don't think he can make that deadline unless he hires now and finds a good Engineer or two. Even then that's pushing it, and he'll be falling late into the difficulty rise.

I wish you luck sir. I personally think that your price is much too high given your expected delivery date and the current understanding of the market. But given the amount of money you have invested (and are yet still willing to invest) you do certainly seem committed.

^^ i will give him that. In poker we call it pot committed! Kinda sucks ... I actually thought this guy was a scam and it seems he is one of the few who maybe actually be genuine and has made an investment into the asic market .. I hope he fairs out ok..

Yea, its awesome to see someone willing to bet millions on this. The only issue with his plan that I have is that its obvious that if he had done even some cursory estimates into what difficulty will be in August, even with very conservative estimates, he would know that he couldn't charge 1/3 of what he is planning to. Avalon has already sold hundreds of thousands of chips. Assuming that they can get those to market (which this guy is also dependent on) and then even if Asicminer ships very few units, and BFL ships none, no one will see ROI based on his anticipated pricing and timeframe, and that's ignoring the extra competition that is coming, and the other risks to his operation.

OP I thought about this some more. You should abandon the idea of creating miners (shipping in August) and instead resell the chips to DIY folks in the US, along with assembly parts, as soon as they enter your possession.

Since you have made such a large purchase, you may have an advantage over everyone else buying chips in smaller quantities. As evidenced by the other threads with groupbuys, there is a huge market for chips where the buyer doesn't have to purchase 10k at once, and where the chips are already being shipped to the US. That's your opportunity.  

Otherwise, why the hell would someone like me take the risks that you are outlining, instead of getting in on Avalon batch 4?  Surely that will be cheaper and more predictable than what you are proposing, since its based on actual current difficulty and faster (by comparsion) shipping times. Think about it, there is absolutely no reason for someone to take a chance on your plan given these realities and options.

In my opinion, many people will try DIY and not be able to build a working rig.  Since I will have staff on hand trained to assemble working mining devices from chips and boards, this is something I may be able to offer in the future, but it is doubtful that my staff will have much respite from assembling branded devices for pre-order customers.  So it is doubtful that I will be offering an assembly, spare parts, or repair service any earlier than September.  Selling chips and boards as kits to DIY folks is something I haven't considered doing because there are already others working on that as a project and I don't want to take on too much.

As to the difficulty estimates, they have consistently been worst case estimates, including my own posts on the subject.  One of the most thoroughly analytical forecasters, organofcorti, posted: http://organofcorti.blogspot.com/2013/02/910-asic-choices-avalon-update-3.html (http://organofcorti.blogspot.com/2013/02/910-asic-choices-avalon-update-3.html) as recently as February 19, 2013 that the difficulty would reach 18 million April 1 and 33 million May 1.

We have seen these estimates fail repeatedly.  Is it because there are all the parts sitting around waiting to be assembled?  Or are there delays prior to delivery of components?  Hard to say.  It's all speculation at this point.  But even with the current worst case estimates of year-end difficulty, the BTC mining devices I am proposing should recoup their investment within 12 months, which has always been an acceptable investment in bitcoin mining as long as I've been doing it, almost 2 years at this point.

I am very interested and just sent you a PM.

it appears you have 2 options. Reduce the price or make a bigger machine. I'd like you to crank up the specs and charge more per unit.

A bigger machine is also an interesting idea. No matter what you do I really do hope you succeed. This takes some guts and the community is better for people like you taking a chance.

ya, something 100gh/s and cheaper than others..September is a long way.. by that time avalon, butterfly, knc, asicminer will already saturate
the markets.. Speed and Timing, as you can see avalon is 1 year a head of butterfly.Avalon fab or factory goes 24/7 butterfly fab probably goes
8/5 a week or 6/5 a week  :) how to match those guys overseas.

I understand the desire for more hashes, but these are avalon chips and the most that you can fit into a 4U case with a 1000W psu with adequate heat dissipation characteristics is 90 GH/s which can be overclocked perhaps to 96 GH/s.  You see where BFL is using cases intended for the Single to house the pre-ordered Jalapeno.  You can't argue with the laws of thermodynamics, they are immutable.

If you had some proof of design instead of just an idea and still to get the engineers on board it might be different, but I feel there are too many unknowns yet.

I wish you all the best & hope you really do come up with another option for us all, but if I was to pay your price for that spec I would want to know it's actually possible, given today's asic market. Faced with a pre-order situation I feel either Burnin or Avalons 2/3 mini-rig would be safer options.  

As a note (and from the comments here), I think most people would not be willing to risk the 75BTC upfront price.  If you considered a half sized unit you might see one or two more adventurous punters take you up.

This is also my feeling. You definitely look like a nice guy and you are risking a lot there. I hope it all turn out to work good for you. But there is too much risk involved for a customer as BFL started shipping.

I am going to have to revise the timeline due to the following unforeseen circumstances:

1) Lack of qualified job applicants. 
2) Avalon has not moved any of the bitcoins sent to the pre-order address, has not communicated the cause of or length of delay for batch #2, and generally may be late in getting out the open-source specs, sample chips, and final chip orders.

As such, I will not be opening to pre-orders until, at the earliest,

1) I have received the sample chips, which should occur on or about May 15, 2013,
2) Avalon has released the PCB and FPGA open source reference designs, which should occur on May 1, 2013. 
3) I have an engineering/assembly team to consult with regarding production timeline and timeliness feasibility.

Once these things have happened, then I will revise the timeline and open up for either full pre-orders or chip deposits.

Wow you expect them to send you the sample chips and pcb board schematic so early, if you ask me it will be at month end and early June or even late June.. do you think avalon will send out the specs so early? 320 chip x $7 = $2,240 + $100 for other parts, $2,340 - $10,000 or 75 bitcoin  = $8,460? you make good profit  :)

Can we order yet?

they will not likely send out the sample chip early

Props to this guy for not just raking in peoples money on the promise of turnaround that seemed unlikely. I'm guessing sample batches have yet to be delivered.

as i said in another topic ... when i see PRE-orde .. i run away  ::)

how about ORDER and ESCROW ?  ;D

Ya, Order and escrow or paypal

How the hell is bfl getting away with PayPal?

Paypal is massive, and BFL is yet to be inundated with refund requests as people hang in. I don't think it's on their radar yet.

I had my PayPal suspended dozens of times, sometimes for just being late 1 day shipping and they put me through hell drop shipping once. There's something shady at PayPal with bfl. Hope at least all the money is being held.

I really do not understand these companies, sigh, they really do not realize how much people would throw at them if they actually produced a working and shipping model.

People are spending $1200 just for 4 video cards at < 3GH/s

Also nobody knows when Avalon is actually shipping their chips..

You didn't make Paypal a shit load of commission, they probably think BFL are amaze balls right now!

Paypal take like a 2.9% cut you know...

Exactly, if you are a big customer PayPal will work with you. They cut no slack for the little sellers however.

Any news?

OP please lock this thread by editing your first post and looking under 'additional options'.

Please point me to where is answer to my question.

Did you pay the OP?  Did you pay this guy $20k USD? 

Forget about it, you didn't read my post.  Thanks anyway.

This guy knew when to call it quits.