Bitcoin Forum

Don't get me wrong, I'm very excited about bitcoin, but I think the Feds are not going to be happy.  If somebody there is knowledgable about this, and thinks I'm wrong let me know.  If they'll lock a guy up for making silver coins, I don't think they're going to be very accomodating to bitcoin. The Feds move slow, but when they move watch out!  Can bitcoin survive regardless?  I hope so. 


http://investmentwatchblog.com/nc-man-convicted-for-making-selling-own-silver-coins/

Article I, section 8, clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. This power was delegated to Congress in order to establish and preserve a uniform standard of value and to insure a singular monetary system for all purchases and debts in the United States, public and private. Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money which is not issued under its own authority in order to protect and preserve the constitutional currency for the benefit of all citizens of the nation. It is a violation of federal law for individuals, such as von NotHaus, or organizations, such as NORFED, to create private coin or currency systems to compete with the official coinage and currency of the United States.

It's not really competing with the USD. According to that article the US Conqress might be allowed to ban the use of bitcoin in the US. But it obviously didn't happen yet.

Another thing is how hard it ca be to track down someone using it. It would be like downloading movies : It's illegal, but they won't come out to every house to check the computers, as long as you keep this to yourself, nothing will happen.

I think that guy got into trouble for selling his coins as coins and not as a store of value.  After all, there are many private mints making silver coins and selling them as silver.  I think the argument for bitcoin is that it can be traded as a store of value like a silver or gold bar.  Corporations like microsoft don't get in trouble for their online "currencies" such as MS points.  The NC man was passing off his coins as real and inserting them into circulation with legitimate US currency.  

However we should be somewhat concerned.  Chuck Schumer has been a vocal critic of bitcoin because it can be used to purchase drugs.  Apparently the US dollar has no purchasing power to druggies...

No, Nothing's happened yet, but it might in the future.  I'm not worried about myself, but it will effect the viability of bitcoins and their marketability.  The Feds love to let these type of things roll along, let people get invested, and then shut em down.  They might not be able to stop bitcoin, but they will be able to shut down websites if they want to, which could make things very difficult I think.  Another thing don't think the Feds won't consider this a threat, all they've got is their money. Without it they're toast. 

bitcoins are a Japanese currency, therefore, not illegal in America.

  Yeah, I'm sure that will convince them!

While it is true that the US is regulating the value of foreign "coin". They do not have the jurisdiction to regulate the value of foreign "coin".

Bitcoin is not within US jurisdiction... let's be clear about that.

The US and French governments seem to think they have international jurisdiction.... but they dont!

Also, the US constitution is speaking specifically about coin money aka coins made from precious metal. For more than a century banks were issuing their own currency backed by the US coinage (aka US gold coins).

by the way, if a bitcoin website's DNS is registered through namecoin, then there is no way for the US government to take it down.

it will be years before the U.S. government will even understand how bitcoin works.

This is a specific referrence to the power to create legal tender.  Bitcoin isn't legal tender anywhere in the world, and the legal right to create a private currency within the United States is well established provided that it could not rationally be confused with legal tender.  The Ithica Hour is a wonderful example.

I guess you didn't hear about Bitcoin's lead developer doing a presentation about Bitcoin for the CIA, then?

Tell that to the 36 sovereign nations the US alone has attacked or invaded since (not including) World War II without declarations of war.

Since when has jurisdiction stopped the US from doing anything it wanted, at any time it wanted, and anywhere it wanted ??

Yes, I am a US citizen.

If the Justice Department investigates bitcoins they may discover that the Federal Reserve is in violation of the Constitution.

Remember Andrew Jackson? He warned us about such a central bank.

Who owns the Federal Reserve? Shouldn't it be public record?

Jurisdiction has not stopped them since WW2... I'm still waiting for someone with the resources to file charges against the US gov.
Part of the fraud with international courts is there is no free access. If people's rights are violated they need access to a free legal counsel...

I beleive the Aust Govt wants BTC regulated so they can tax all transacions. Heard this from a mate whom works in a big bank. Dunno how they hope to acheive this!

"Old Hickory" did much more than warn us. He actually BEAT the central banks and was the only president to pay off the national debt!

The ownership of the federal reserve is hidden, but that fact that its private is public knowledge. It simply is not advertised because those in power and those in the press and media are owned and controlled by board of director members who are part of the world central banking system, who owns the A-Stock certificates in the worlds central banks. All the same players here working for a small group.

sure but im referring to the political side that likes to play with earmarks

You might be right there.

I'll check that out. Thanks!

What are Disney Dollars?
 
      Disney Dollars are a form of corporate scrip or tokens or currency used at Disney theme parks, the Disney Store, and at one time certain parts of Castaway Cay, the Disney cruise-line's private island. It is worth dollar for dollar.  Being backed up by real money...

-DisneyDollars.net


So n00b, what's the difference?

Try not to be a dick, okay?

Good luck with that!

Fine fine, I'll be more friendly.

OP, see references to any one of many "substitutes of money/value/transactions", like

Disney Dollars
Gift Cards
Fun Money
Fiat Currency
Monopoly Money
Poker Chips
Casino Credits
XBox Live Points
Ithica Hours
BerkShares
T-Bills
WoW Gold
Debit Cards

And ask yourself, "how many of these have been ruled illegal, and their creators cast into mythical dungeons," and "how does bitcoin differ from these," and "do I Wikipedia objectively?"

Well, Walt Disney maybe in some kinky dungeon, but it was his choice.

Did you know that Federal Reserve is technically illegal according to the constitution?

Gov doesn't care anymore and they want more power so they can gain more control over the people. Bitcoin is a step to right direction, just what American forefathers wanted. They want sovereign people to deal with their own situation without the gov. They want decentralized America but it couldn't happen because of the Britain Imperialistic tried to take over America with their schemes. Thus they implement constitution to prevent from tyrannies. Tyrannies are running the world, like we're witnessing today.

Before the revolution begun...
Did you know South Carolina used rice as money?
Did you know Virginia used tobacco as money?
Did you know north use fish/corn as money for the Indians?

They all use some form of commodity and find what's the best for themselves and others. Bitcoin does this as well which is why I support it because it does not rely on the gov nor central bankers. It simply eliminates them.

Internet is anarcho-capitalism, to be noted for anybody who doesn't know this.

It's already been stated multiple times here, but there are far too many "acceptable" examples of currency substitutes being employed by various parties in the US.  The US Government finds fault only with the Bitcoin because it is often used in underground trades for black market merchandise.

I will forecast that, although they will try to shut down .onion sites such as The Silk Road (which might've already been accomplished, given the look of it), they won't attempt to touch the Bitcoin.

Something to consider...unless you have an Austrian (real) economic background, you may just think bitcoin will fail or is not a threat. You won't see it as the most magnificently beautiful and elegant monetary solution man has seen thus far. So even though the CIA was given a presented about bitcoin, they probably won't understand the full potential. People in general won't understand the potential either. People will probably come out with conspiracy theories claiming the bitcoin technology was handed down by aliens to save humanity. I guess my point is that most people today can't think rationally, so bitcoin should have some time before governments start going hysterical.

Understanding by the government is not a requirement. Congress has been passing laws for decades on things they know little/nothing about  :-\

Hahah, try working in the scientific fields and seeing congress having debates on issues such as cloning.  The lack of understanding or even desire to understand is pathetic.

Technically, and legally, bitcoin is a commodity, not a currency.  Also, bitcoins aren't really "coined" by anyone, not even virtually. They are discovered.

The differences are many.  There's no discoin/usd exchange, people aren't creating Disney coins to literally make money.  People don't speculate in Disney coins (except maybe you) and they don't buy things on the internet with them to name a few.   signed the n00b.

Exactly what I am thinking.  Well said.

I think you're wrong. I think  Bitcoin is the real deal, and it will be a big concern to them, and they will attempt to "touch it" if not more.

Online poker is not illegal in America either and is legal in many countries the online operators are based.  The government decided to shut that industry down and did it by attacking the payment processor and shutting the early payment sites like neteller down to US customers.  Do not make the mistake of thinking that the BitCoin is too far out of the US government reach.  

There are major differences between all these things and bitcoin.  Even if there wasn't, it wouldn't matter.  If the Feds perceive bitcoin as a threat they will come after it.  All they need is the facade of legality and the Federal courts will back them up.  You can make arguments until you howl at the moon, and they might be good ones too, but it won't matter.  Unless you have a really good lawyer, political connections and a sizable amount of public opinion on your side forget it.  Maybe you could get a really, really good lawyer like Tom Cryer but that's about it.  You would need a jury trial though because they would put the screws on the Federal judge that would hear the case and he would not be impartial to say the least.

Good arguments.  Some power there I think, but that's not how it's being presented to the public.  I listened to the bitcoin video very carefully.

Aren't bitcoins completely virtual? 

So are X-box live points and WoW gold.

but then again, technically speaking, bitcoin is not money

it really isn't a currency either (typically currencies inflate and constantly lose value over time)

it's more of a digital commodity

my opinion

Bitcoin is money. That's the whole point of bitcoin, is to be able to use it as a means of payment. If you want to get "technical", Wikipedia describes money as "Money is any object or record, that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given country or socio-economic context." Bitcoin certainly falls within those boundaries.

At this point, Bitcoin is not stable enough to be used as a mainstream currency, so the majority of Bitcoin is just involved in stock-like transactions, but the intended end result of Bitcoin is to be able to use it as a currency.

Its still ok AFAIK

Yes, for a short term. The long term will slowly steady out as we get closer to 21 million. I noticed that most of of my friends are supporting the bitcoin commodity which is fantastic. They are mining as well. We will have even more mining players in the system thus, the calculation to mine blocks will dramatically reduce as more miners appear. Although, the difficulty blocks bound to get harder to mine which will scrape the lower end miners. They will not able mine very well and not very efficient plus, it's just a waste of time.

IMO the US Constitution is unlikely to exert a meaningful influence on the outcome of Bitcoin.  Especially if the DOJ, FBI, NSA, CIA or any other US Federal TLA's are involved -- US Federal LEO's mostly think the Constitution is an historical relic and anyone taking it seriously is probably some kind of "Taxi Driver" type whose phone should be tapped as a safety precaution.

If I had to bet, I'd bet that a US Federal campaign to destroy Bitcoin will happen sooner or later.  Because Bitcoin offers a kind of anonymity it will be labeled as "money laundering."  However I suspect the Feds will go to great lengths to ensure that Bitcoin never gets its day in court, unless, of course, an opportunity arises to prosecute an individual or group who is jurisprudentially clearly guilty of a bunch of crap unrelated or tangentially related to Bitcoin (i.e.: wire fraud + racketeering + tax evasion + money laundering, all using Bitcoin).

As others have posted, it may take them a while to figure out what Bitcoin actually is.  But don't expect Feds to live up to their infamy as misinformed dolts in 2011.  In the Internet era, facts are cheap.  Anyone with access to Google, git, and an abacus has the requisite tools to figure out what Bitcoin is and the Feds will make sure they have at least a cursory understanding before they send the goon squads to round  up their citizens.

Here's my reasoning: since 9/11, it has become -- I suspect -- sacrosanct in the Federal LE community that highly traceable, highly seizable money is going to be the cornerstone of a new anti-terrorism and internal revenue enforcement regime, and that protecting the control and monitoring of the movement of all practical money instruments is a a top priority -- much higher priority than, say, enforcing actual laws.

So once Bitcoin reaches a certain critical mass -- and I fear it looms dangerously close already -- its going to light up pretty big on their radar.  Even if the real money supply of Bitcoins were to remain unexpectedly small, a high velocity of money could still threaten the control of the Fed and the Feds over their money-power security blanket -- by which I don't mean an actual high velocity of Bitcoin, just the perception that it is possible for Bitcoin to accelerate in the future without real expansion of the monetary base.

Personally, I'm just grateful for Bin Laden -- that could very well have bought the US an extra six months or more.  I wish I were kidding  :(

On the other hand, I think any US Federal attempt to shutdown and outlaw Bitcoin will most likely fail.  I suspect that, due to the design of Bitcoin, they will be forced to trample on some fairly fundamental human rights or to implement some sort of Great Firewall to fight any "war on Bitcoin;" ultimately it will be a PR disaster.  Eventually some US administration will be smart enough to know when to back down.  I could see it being put into some sort of legal-gray-area status or even recognized as legal but with some onerous tax accountancy burden attached to it to make any real-world, practical usage of Bitcoin a de jure crime even if it's technically allowed.

Of course this is all wild speculation and even if I'm right, the whole process could take decades.  But if I had to wager on an outcome it would be something along those lines.

A group of people or better yet Govt. with power to protect itself that will adopt Bitcoin will RULE THE WORLD.

It's up to the US Govt. to decide if they want to bullshit about "Full Spectrum Domination", or really do something.  Yes, crooks running Federal Reserve should be prosecuted for what they've done. It's also up to the US people to DO SOMETHING NOW.

But good hackers/engineers will have an advantage. That is REALLY what I like about Bitcoin - not financial crooks, that can do nothing, but down to earth practitioners will benefit. What a relief for a change, after all the "outsourcing" done by greedy assholes not willing to consider implications of their unlimited greed (defined as a desire to improve your position 10 times at the cost of making position of 1000 people 10 times worse). That is generally road to nowhere, whereas Bitcoin is a road to sanity.

This. I can imagine the FED getting hysterical in the future and i do look forward to it. Ahhh just reminds me of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPWH5TlbloU

Is it any different to trading in a squillion other international currencies? Bitcoins are the most international of all, except owned by all and none alike.

I'm going to pass this vid on for ever, awesome stuff mate, thanks for linking it.

Federal Reserve notes are not lawful tender either.

http://harveyalexander.weebly.com/themoneyscam.html

AAAmazing! So clear, easy to understand and historically and factually correct.

In view of current issues with nuclear energy, a very appropriate analogy.

MONEY is like NUCLEAR ENERGY. Very powerful invention, that requires a LOT OF CARE even when used by good people, and CAPABLE OF ENORMOUS DAMAGE when used by evil ones.

After watching it  I feel that America HAS future, in spite of all damage done by banksters.

They wont give a shit about bitcoin for one reason...IN THE END SOMEONE IS CONVERTING IT TO USD AND THEY WILL TAX THAT ASS! Until then...its a worth peice of code.

In the end the US is going to be more worried about taxing bitcoin use than it is about trying to get rid of it. If they can find a way to tax it, then they will most likely promote it. For example: a store would associate their bitcoin address with their merchant/tax number and now they have a very easy accounting system of how much came in through the use of bitcoins.

I agree this is entirely likely, in fact it will almost certainly happen. There's no way Bitcoins will become as successful as speculators are hoping without some hostility from the fed. It will be interesting to see which countries attack it and how quickly. Hidden transactions make taxation difficult, but as long as Bitcoin is competing as a virtual currency it's fine, next it will be traded like physical currency when there is some fixed value attached to it (1 Bigmac will ALWAYS cost 1 BTC), finally it will be traded like the semi-virtual currencies of the exchanges, credit cards, etc.

Until the last point it's of laughable threat to established currencies.

Without going into a big huge diatribe on the terrible state the US has fallen into lets just say this..

The bitcoin is just another example of people flight from the dollar.

Bitcoins,
Gold,
Silver,
Euro's,
Commodities,
Little toys from vending machines outside the supermarket...

ANYTHING TO GET AWAY FROM THE USD

The whole systems coming down, and its finger is going to be pointed in one direction. I think we all know where.

So when the dollar collapses, or hyper inflates, or whatever it does, do to QE3 under another name, or QE15, it doesn't matter, bitcoins and other currencies will be the benefit.

Bottom line, i wouldn't worry about the US government for much longer. A few years from now and they wont be able to support the police state we've all grown to know and "love"

They wont let the dollar hyper inflate. At least not for long.

They will kill the dollar and either create another US currency or push in the Amero (http://images.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1003&bih=708&q=amero&gbv=2&oq=amero&aq=f&aqi=g6g-s1g3&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=939l2417l0l7l7l1l0l0l0l263l1142l0.3.3l6) if we ever get near hyper-inflation.

If they would do their job, which is to figure out what their citizens want and make it happen, then they would have people who wanted them to continue running things instead of shrink to a smaller government, but instead "all they've got is their money".

I hope bitcoin does not get banned! That would suck.

Unfortunately, this doesn't take into account who actually has the money and their agenda.  It doesn't matter if the US gov't is bankrupt - that will simply justify further liquidation of assets stolen from US citizens.  If the banksters want the police state, they'll have it.  The only way this will change is if enough 'services' provided by the US gov't are available at higher quality and lower cost on the open market. 

BTC is a great step forward because it breaks their stranglehold on money.  Arbitration companies now settle twice as many cases in a year as gov't courts in the US - this is beginning to weaking the gov'ts strangehold on law and disputes.  The only domino yet to fall is the gov'ts strangehold on military power.  Without an effective means of collective defense outside of the traditional means of gov't armies and militias, we can never move in the direction of real freedom.   

As I see it, step 1 is bring BTC and similar fiat-money-replacements mainstream.  Step 2 is use it as a means of financing goods and services that the gov't currently has a legal monopoly on and would shut down if it could regulate, trace and manipulate financial transactions.  Step 3 is bringing those alternatives mainstream, until the average 'man on the street' begins to wonder why he's paying taxes when everything the government supposedly 'provides' him is available more cheaply and at vastly higher quality on the open market.

Why would the man on the street pay for stuff when he already gets that service through taxation?  For the same reason people pay for DSL and Cable internet when dial up is provided nearly free in certain geographies.

BTC is the beginning of the future.  We can make it happen together.

With all due respect, but... who gives a damn about the US?

Your and everyone else in the world should care if you care about freedom and liberty.

If the US falls, the rest of the world is not far behind.

We citizens of the world are brothers and sisters. We need to unite under freedom and liberty, for that is our true common bond.

I care because I have to live in the same house with the bully.  You should care because he is also known to leave his own house and beat the kids on the next block whenever he starts feeling insecure about himself.  And he carries a damn big stick.

Fucking feds.

Supporters of Bitcoin and moving toward a decentralized society in general, should "give a damn about the US" and all other countries because global politics and power and economics is a very unstable system, ready to collapse into World War 3 much faster than you think, and we should all try to make sure LOCAL CHANGES ARE AVOIDED and GLOBAL CHANGES HAPPEN SMOOTHLY. We should not try to overthrow any government or escalate conflicts, and such governments will feel less need to attack the idea of a decentralized society, giving us flexibility to implement it the right way. Instead we should use things like Bitcoin and Wikileaks to make such changes smoothly and quickly. Anyone who knows calculus knows you can be smooth and fast at the same time. That's why you should give a damn about US and every other country, and less importantly, every Human life is valuable which is something most people say with their mouth but not their actions. If you can't look at the bigger picture, then please let someone else think for you who does think about those things.

Yes I do. The thing "the US" doesn't get IMHO is that a person's freedom ends where another's begins. It's too easy building your citizens' freedom at the expense of other peoples'.
Mind you: I'd be equally critic if this were to be the position of the EU or whatever else. It's just that these kind of things generally come always from the US (ACTA, SWIFT, etc.) - so I get started up pretty easily when somebody links "freedom" and "US".

And BTW, I disagree with the primadonna view of the US: no, you're not strictly needed. Simlarly, the EU is not strictly needed, Japan is not strictly needed, China isn't either and so is India. Nobody's strictly needed.

According to the very insightful movie posted above US HAD already fallen - as long ago as 1913 (FRS/IRS creation)

The problem is to bring the original principles US was founded on back. By now, the WHOLE WORLD is ready to REVOLT against the RULE OF BANKSTERS (call them Rotshilds if you wish). It's very sad to see the US being perceived as the Banksters, but it is so - US is totally occupied by them.

I'm into Bitcoin for this reason, as well as because it's a great technology and social phenomena. Are people of the US ready to do their share in establishing of the Fare New World Order? Forget about capitalizm/communism - I want to have MY MONEY BACK. Money is a social phenomana. They belong to the people, not to the Govt, not to any social class (if we use Marxist discourse), not to any nation, not to any corporation.

I don't like Banksterism, I don't like Socializm or Communism. I just want the normal free market back. With taxes on monetary gains ONLY. In other words, nobody should be able to hoard MONEY. If you can spend what you've earned - no taxes. So - majority of people will not pay any taxes. But those - like these Banks now, that have TRILLIONS in reserves, shall pay, and Govt. SHALL put these money back into the economy. Seems simple.

Maybe with Bitcoin and no ability to issue more money when somebody is hoarding them we can demonstrate that it's simple to run the economy and w/o Banksters and corrupt Govt. the Free Market will do what it does - grouth, prosperity and happiness to the people.

All right, I concede that maybe "to care" wasn't the right verb to use. In the proper sense I do care because I strive to do all that's legitimate for a non-US national to do to change this (IMHO) for the better (with the obvious boundary of preserving US nationals' freedoms).
Beside that, I don't care.

You are not speaking about the US.

You are speaking about the insidious influence who puts dupes and minions into power throughout world governments.

Those bastardizing what this country and the rest of the free world were built upon are the ones you should direct your vitriol towards. Not any nation nor its people.

The rest of the world is all bought up with WB/IMF loans they cant even pay the interests on. Europe already fell to the globalists geopolitical and financial power. The asian union and african union are not far off. All it would take is for america to fall completely to start a chain reaction steamrolling to world towards a global police state with centralized executive, legislature, judiciary, and military.

Go read some realy history books, not the ones they give you in school not the information in the media. They are dividing and conquering us by splitting us apart. We are brothers and sisters fighting the same battle in the same war.

There is still time while we have freedom left.

If freedom and liberty were truly gone, we would be arrested for having this discussion and put in re-education camps.

It's not to late... for now.

You are talking about a tool they use. A symptom of the problem.

They own the presses and can print all the money they want.

Its about power and control.

To create a propagandized world where everyone thinks they are happy. Enslaved by debt and obligation, doing their patriotic duty as outlined by indoctination and manipulation. A control grid.

Money gives them that power and control to influence dupes and minions. Put them into office. Using change agents to indoctrinate and manipulate the public into seeing things how they do. Establishment controlled media, establishment controlled schooling, establishment controlled social programs, establishment controlled society. Pressuring people to think in mainstream ways even if deep inside they disagree or question it, they dont want to be different. This is how they steal our wealth and our rights by enacting legislation under public support by that very indoctrination and manipulation that takes more rights and freedom. Using more oppressive and tyrannical leaders and laws.

Why do you think the governemnts frown upon militia, patriots, and constitutionalists and have used media to try and change public perception of them ?

Its all about a few controlling the many. A return to serfdom. So they live like kings with anything they want, while everyone else serves them and gets as little as possible, jsut enough so they wont revolt and kill the king. Its simply rolling back time to the age of Pharohs and Kings whos word was law and no one had any rights.

They biggest tools are war and the money.  If they can kill our resolve and disenfranchise us enough, we may be willing to accept world government as the only saving grace.

The ecnonomy, global warming, the ozone threat, world wars, police actions, the enviromental movement, and many more are all tools used to change the hearts and minds of the people.

they are slamming us from 100 different directions with just as many tools.

they want all land, all wealth, and all resources for themselves.

the manipulation and indoctrination are working for them.

They change agents are gradually changing the hearts and minds of the people.

the divide and conquer strategy is working.

The main problem is the people for our apathy and disinterests in what truly makes us free. Very few citizens feel they ahve the ability and responsibility to protect their own freedom, while many do not even recognise that there is a problem, let along knowing the cause and what they can do to fix it even if they recognised it.

if a few billion armed world citizens stood up to them in unison with an ultimatum, they would run like cowards.

it really doesn't matter.
The government is pretty much powerless in tackling a P2P network with no centralized location.
They can try and tackle institutions like Mt Gox but it'll be a cat and mouse game.

Watch this interview with Gavin Anderson bit coin programmer/administrator. It's eye opening, especially what he says about working with the government,  using bitcoin is not anonymous, the exchanges are registered with the government and complying with all laws.  This guy also gave a talk to the CIA this week. You can find the link for that yourself.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7368784n

Sure you can trace every transaction, but it isn't between Person A and Person B, it is between BTC address A and BTC address B.  And if the users of Bitcoin are smart about it, there will be nothing tying them to the account.

Honestly the developers are being smart about this by giving the impression of cooperation with the gov't - or maybe they think they are really cooperating.  Either way, an intelligent userbase can all-but deny oversight into their private transactions.

If a revolution ain't illegal it ain't a revolution.