Bitcoin Forum

I'm new to altcoins. It is a very interesting world, I'm reading articles and trying myself things out, trying to grasp all this a little bit better.

I read about the ether fork and I realize that both ETH and ETC are being in use. I see for example at kraken that they are both tradeable.

I understand thus that each is going it's own way now like a distinct currency.

A couple of questions:

a) Is ETH not vulnerable to the very same wicknesses that it was before the fork? How does it handle this?
b) Take someone who used to have ethers before the fork, does he have his ethercoins doubled? becoming ETCs in the one blockchain and remaining ETHs in the other?
c) Which currency is more popular? having the mainstream?

( Honest questions; don't mean to start a troll. thanks )

1. Every project is somewhat vulnerable, no project is completely invulnerable to all type of attacks. What caused the problem was bad developer code from the guys that started dao ( not part of ethereum foundation developing team ). And the community decided to not let the hacker get away with the money ( 90% voted in that direction ) so the ethereum foundation provided an update, which most people followed.
2. Yes, i sold all my ETC for example and kept ETH. Because ETC has no chance of fullfilling ethereum's original promises, that to eventually become a dapp / contract blockchain that can eventually scale. Because they don't have the brainpower to do it, they want to change it to something similar to what bitcoin and other thousands of similar projects are aiming for; becoming a currency.
3. Bitcoin is the most popular currency nowadays, because more average people know about it. Ethereum is much more popular where it matters: people with skills and money working for companies that try to build on ethereum. Also ethereum has the biggest dev pool, there are literally hundreds of project for it, some live, some in beta stage, some in work.

P.S: take into consideration that ETC was born mostly not because some people didn't agree with the fork, but because some people like chandler guo, barry shilbert, tried to scam the people into thinking ETC is the right chain to make them invest in it so they can dump their bags ( since they had the ETC from the split too ).

Thanks for the answers. So, I understand that despite the fact that 90% were positive about proceeding with the fork, you yourself, preferred to stick with ETH, and not follow the new blockchain. Do I understand it right?

As about my 3rd question:


I meant, which one between the two: ETH vs ETC

and yet a new question:
d) Do you need a different desktop wallet for each coin? (ETH/ETC)

Again: about 90% of people agreed that the hacker should not be allowed to keep the money, me included. So i sold all the remaining etc because i had no use for it and the ETC dev team isn't capable of delivering original ethereum;s promises.
Obviously ETH is, you can check at http://coinmarketcap.com/ to see the market capital. Also the reddit. ETH's reddit is filled with important stuff, dapps, development, technical shit while ETC's reddit, like bitcoin's and all other shit projects out there is filled with unimportant stuff. Check them yourself to see what people talk about in ETH's reddit compared to ETC or BTC.
It's like on one side, there's a group of people talking about football or the weather, and on the other side there's a group of people ( ethereum ) that talks about sending a rocket to space. That kind of difference there is between ethereum (eth) and others.

About the wallet, i think that you need a different wallet, not sure anymore. BUT don't bother with ETC, it is extremely centralized both politically and the mining. DEV team just decided that there won't be ~100mil token cap and they will change it to 200+ mil. Basically in time your ETC becomes more and more worthless since more tokens are mined. The naive people just got scammed by chandler guo and barry silbert with this ETC scam.

I realize I might be mixing things up.

Which one (ETC/ETH) is connected to the original rules and which one to the new after-fork rules?
???

ETH is the original chain, with the original dev pool, biggest community, having tens of corporations supporting it and hundreds of projects. ETC is the one manipulated by chandler guo and barry shilbert that has no future as a dapp/ smart contracts platform, with a tiny community.
P.S: because of uninformed people like you ETC still manages a market cap of ~128mil. Some people who bought into this scam genuinely believed the manipulation.

Basically ETC is referred to as the Criminal Coin around here because it was developed solely for the purpose of funding criminal activities. As others have pointed out in this thread you are best to stay away from the ETC Criminal Coin. If you want to invest in a Coin with big backing and potential then buy ETH.

Thanks for all the explanations and yet, i feel like stupid for not getting one thing.

So, let's see:
ETH = the original rules currency
ETC = the after fork, new rules, currency

right?

Mining1 says:


That means that mining1 was positive about the fork. Isn't it the fork that produced the ETC? Isn't ETC the "newer" between the two?

If you were pro-fork, shouldn't you support the new chain (ETC) that would come out of it?

And why is it called "classic" if it's the newer one?

(I know I must be missing the obvious here. Thanks for bearing with me.)

Jesus, again:
There was just ethereum; after dao happened, polls were casted on different sites, the consensus was that we should not allow the hacker to get away with the money. As a consequence, ethereum foundation released an update, stating that it would follow and develop on the chain with the most hashpower, aka the chain chosen by the community. So people abandoned the chain where hacker had millions of stolen tokens and moved onto the updated blockchain where he had none.
But, short time after, some market manipulators saw an opportunity to make more money. How ? Well, if you were a whale back then, there were 2 ways to make money:
1. Trick people into buying tokens on the "loser" chain so you can dump your huge bag without dropping the price, therefore getting the most out of your loser chain bag ( otherwise it would have been worthless)
2. Sell your tokens on the main blockchain as an attempt to manipulate people into moving on the loser chain. Why would they do that? Example: you have 1.000 ETH worth 10$ each. That's 10k usd.
Now, if you sell your tokens on the main chain for 10k usd, you still have 1.000 ETC on the loser chain. Instead of selling them for 1k usd, they tried to pump ETC to make people believe that ETC is the winning chain and did that as a bet to double their money. They failed because there weren't enough fools to believe their manipulation and ETC and ETH's value didn't reverse as they were hoping.
I was and am pro fork, therefore i moved onto the blockchain that was newly created after the fork. Basically everytime a hardfork happens, the old chain is abandoned and people move onto the newly updated chain. This is how updates happen in the blockchain world. A new hardfork will come soon to update to metropolis, so people will leave the curent chain and move to metropolis.

I see now. Thanks for the good explanation.

The reason for me not being able to follow you, was because I thought that ETC was the newer thing (despite seeing "classic" in the name). I got this misconception from reading some article, on the net.

I understand, now.

ETH is the after-fork, supported by the most, when ETC is "abandoned" by the most, but still run by some who still hold to it, for whatever reasons.

I just checked and I see that indeed, ETH holds a stronger position in the market:
1 ETC = 1.33 EUR
1 ETH = 18 EUR

Think of hardforks as evolutions, if for whatever reasons some people refuse to update and run the old versions then the old chain will survive. ETC has some value left because it has "ethereum" in it's name and some people like you make a confusion.
Being "newer" is relative, depends on the POV. Technically it is not new because it runs an older code but it is newly created and new to the market, since there was no "etc" before.

consensus means majority of users agree upon something. this means miners and users which can show their voice via running a node.
Ethereum fork looks more like a fuck up than a consensus to me because if you fork with majority of users accepting the change you won't see a leftover coin!
just like the forks bitcoin had in the past. you don't even know about them because they were done with consensus (back when community was smaller) and the fork happened smoothly and without any fuck up left over alternate chain.

dont listen to the bs buddy. ill set u straight

etc is the original blockchain
eth is a fork of etc
thedao fucked up along w the ethereum dev which were both tied together/part of ethereum including vitalik
the ethereum blockchain is broke
90% of the community did not vote to fork
ethereum rolled back blocks before the hack which in itself is the death of a blockchain- thats the bottom line
dev was being made on the ethereum blockchain when stevie toolbag/slockit destroyed or should i say exposed the broken chain
ethereum has a cult following

if u make money off of it, great
this is the wild west so jump in and make your money

I guess the best currency and has a good rate is ETH
usually the price ETH will go up once a year.

there is no "best currency" specially if you are calling it a "currency" because it is not. ethereum is just something that we invest in when it is in a dip to sell on top and make more bitcoin as profit!

and ETH and ETC are the same code only without the DAO rollback. they are both with many other bugs that needs fixing and it has lots of other problems. the only reason why ETC is cheaper is the fact that ethereum whales have been dumping ETC to prevent it from rising.

The main reason is very good marketing strategy.
Also Vitalik Buterin is interesting public person, he always promote his project at various conferences and reports.

For me it was a good signal to buy some ETH in he past and I have earned ±90% during 3 months.

ETC is the original chain.  Code is law and the hacker should be able to keep the coins due to shotty coding & checking by the ethereum project.  ETH is just a shit fork of the immutable ETC chain.  Regardless, both have no real usage or utility right now. It is purely just speculation and pump and dumps.  If you have to choose though, stick with ETC.

100% FUD.

ETC is the criminal chain and is so cheap because no one develops on it.

ETH is the original ethereum chain and is cheap at these prices conisdering the amount of development and investment going into the chain.

People ALWAYS choose ETH over the ETC criminal coin.

To put this straight, this is the "call the lawyers and the police" version of the story.  This is the "we don't need any crypto, let's do paper contracts and then decide what the contract wanted to mean by a jury".

However, let us not forget what ethereum, long ago, claimed, and was its raison-d-existence: "smart contracts".

They said all over that the usual way of making human contracts, where there's the letter of the contract, and then, the whole environment, that will judge over exactly what that letter of the contract means, in the frame of the law, habits, and a general feeling of what is just, IS NOW OUTDATED, because we have "smart contracts".

In smart contracts, they said, "the code is the law, and nothing but the law".  This was the innovative thing of ethereum: the code is the law and there is NO ROOM FOR HUMAN INTERPRETATION.  No dispute possible: you run the code of the contract, and it says what should happen, and makes it happen.  If you do not agree, then that's your problem, you had to read the code, which is the contract, the full contract and nothing else is the contract.  And NOTHING WILL EVER STOP a contract from doing what it was written to do.  It were *unstoppable contracts*.


Well, as you can imagine, with a new, Turing complete language, people didn't really *understand* exactly what the code actually meant.  So a lot of "smart people" signed up to the DAO, a super-duper smart contract that was going to play venture capitalist.  It said all over "the code is the law".  All these people "invested" in that contract, signing up to it, and to the claim that the code was going to be the law.

Essentially, the DAO was a big fund, that could release part of these funds to undertakings the holders voted over, with a lot of complicated gouvernance rules.

And then, a guy really looked at the code, and understood that the code allowed him to get most of the funds out of the contract using these governance rules.   And he did exactly that: he used the code, which was the sole law, remember, to give him part of the funds in the DAO.   He didn't "hack" anything.  He used the contract as it was written down, and on who everybody had agreed that it was the law.

But the "law" was different than what people, who didn't really understand the code, thought it was.

So they panicked.  They said that this was not "meant to be that way".  That the code is the law, unless one doesn't agree with it.  So then people started calling that person, who got the funds according to the "laws of the contract", a thief.  A criminal.  A hacker.  While the only thing that he did, was to apply fully the adagio of ethereum: the code is the law.

He didn't modify the code, he didn't break into any computer, he simply USED the contract as it was written down.  And that contract said that he could have the funds.  Even though this is not what people thought that the contract said.  Maybe (not sure) not even its authors.

So then, totally panicked, the only thing that the ethereum foundation did, was to "turn back the block chain" with a hard fork.  The actions of the contract were stopped, and reversed by the hard fork.

Some people, a minority, thought that this killed the essential notion of ethereum, which was based upon the notion of smart contract, and the two fundamental axioms:

- the code is the law, and the sole law: if the code does it, that's what should be done
- a contract is unstoppable.

Stopping a contract, reversing it, and calling someone who played by the rules, a criminal, was the worst thing that could happen to ethereum for some.  So they continued with the old ethereum code: ETC was born.

It's bullshit and you know it. No smart contract is law, unless it's regulated and in production stage. Ethereum is unregulated and in beta stage. I am right so i will not debate this any further.

I think theres room for both chains and development philosophies. Personally i never agreed with the fork, it was a bail out and it went againat thr principles behind ethereum that attracted me to it in the first place. But. As another poster said, thats where the development is going on. I applaud the guys from ETC for standing on principle, but ETH and related projects should be about the smart contracts they provide for and less about the name calling. I was interested enough in ETH, or the EVM, that i was involved in one of the first clones of ETH as an independent blockchain, SOILcoin. I spend a ton of time reading the newest dApp projects, going over their github repos, and finding ways they can be reimplemented for use towards the SOIL vision. dApps will be the future of crypto, the underlying blockchain will simply need to be stable and scalable. I think ETH as a programmatic tool, as well as its clones, has that figured out, and we're just coming to realize that theres few limitations as to what we CAN build on top of yhe blockchain.

It's false to state that "ETH is the original ethereum chain". There was only 1 ethereum, and both ETC and ETH split at that point. Their history was identical prior to the split.

I am going to keep my eye on ETC. Whatever the reason was for its survival (pump, etc), it remained true to the original code. If someone in the future wants their smart contract adhered to, they are going to have qualms about running it on ETH. As others have pointed out, ppl got into the DAO without due diligence, and it was not technically hacked, someone took advantage of what was allowed by the code.

Plus, ETH will go to PoS before ETC. If something goes wrong, ETC may do better.

Besides all this, both ETC and ETH can theoretically do everything BTC can do, and more, with less effort. So it remains to be seen what happens in the future. Although it seems that smart contracts are starting to be run on bitcoin as well?

Nobody will use ETC for smart contracts. Those oligarchs who control it now, can't and don't want that, therefore those investors who wanted a cheaper ETH got scammed. They want to transform ETC into a currency project because they are not able to further develop dapp/smart contract technology because they don't have ethereum foundation on their side and it's very hard to find developers with experience on that particular matter.
So no, ETC won't do better because for many months now they do NOT develop into the direction of ETH. They could copy the updates but they surely do not understand them, so they will always be 10 steps behind. Like the other clones of ethereum, expanse, etc. ETC doesn't stand on principle, it was manipulation and the proof of that is just what i said above. The real people who really believed in it and invested, got scammed by the oligarchs that now want to make it into a currency with a cap of 200-230mil tokens. So much for principles.

I would love to see ETH and ETC developing new Dapps and competing with each other. It would greatly offer many experience to the entire crypto community. ETC has a lot of work to do in setting up a solid team and a roadmap and above all, getting all this working as per the plan and also in making great functioning Dapps. ETH has lots of Dapps that are in the process of developing while ETC lacks in this area.

The ETC is too small. It does not have the resources to compete. It needs more funding.

i think eth is more  popular  then etc , but etc's price is still too low

ETC is small because it's a scam and most people see that. Why do you think they removed the time bomb WITHOUT EVEN ASKING INVESTORS OR MINERS and want to increase the token amount to 230mil ? To let the big investors milk it, aka chinese miners like chandler guo and pump and dumpers like silbert. People who bought it for it's cheaper than ETH and has dapp and smart contract capabilities were left in the dust.

ETH have largest community and original developers... However in a cryptocurrency you must TRUST THE SYSTEM not the decisions of developers. Fork the whole blockchain because you think that is legit, and say "by now this is ETH" to help your investors, violate the base principle  of a P2P cryptocurrency. The only point to have a blockchain based system is to not depend on the decisions of some central authority otherwise is only a stupid and pointless waste of energy and resources. So ETH fork decided by developers is the negation of the essence of the cryptocurrency.

if u want to bag it, go with ETH.  :)

Do you mean ETH will rise faster?

ETH is now more valuable and have better potential, don't forget that ETC was created only because of the hard fork and the hacker, but all this is long gone now, what it matter is that vitalik is still supporting his project and didn't run away after he dump, i think ETH will be a strong contender of bitcoin in the future, the market cap is simply too huge to fail, so buy ETH instead yes,, has a better promises

Long-time lurker on this forum. A year ago the response to this question, in this forum, would have provoked nothing but FUD by BTC maximalists and miscellaneous haters. One year later, we are seeing a more balanced debate.

While 10% or so went with ETC after the contentious fork, it's unclear how many people moved to it for ideological reasons. Certainly there were a number of BTC maximalists who wanted Ethereum to fragment and so they supported it because they were threatened by its popularity. Others saw ETC as a way to own a piece of the brand that ETH had created on the cheap. Some PoW miners also felt threatened that PoS was on the horizon and wanted to ensure that PoW would have a viable future under the Ethereum brand. And no doubt some were confused about which chain the Ethereum Foundation would choose because they seemed to support both, until Vitalik and most of the community publicly announced their support solely for ETH.

10 months later here we are. ETC has experienced its own bout of in-fighting and contention and none of the reasons for why life was breathed into ETC in the first place mean squat for its long-term viability or public utility.

I admit, I am in awe of the persistence of ETC and its will to survive. The problem is, as a chain, it doesn't differentiate itself from ETH in any meaningful way that justifies its existence. As time goes on, more and more people will come to this realization. The price may continue to defy logic, but sooner or later, the crap will hit the fan and reality will set in.