Bitcoin Forum

Is that true that we have to move all our coins to a bitcoin core wallet so that in case of a fork to Bitcoin ulimited we have our coins also there? I heard that it is not good to leave the BTC at exchanges because they won't deposit these BTU 1:1 to BTC. Anyone knows more?

Depends.  I think certain exchanges recently declared they would list both coins, but I don't know how they would handle this.  Best is indeed to have the coins, and not exchange IOU.

But don't worry, there won't be a hard fork soon (or ever).

https://blockchain.info/fr/charts/bitcoin-unlimited-share

Technically, they cannot fork before reaching 51%, but they declared not doing so before reaching 75%.

All Bitcoin Unlimited needs to do is say they made a mistake they will not try and fork Bitcoin then we can go back to the long uptrend, all time highs and moon.

Any fork that requires users to act or otherwise prevent users from accessing their long term cold wallet held coins is a shit one.

Does anybody know if there's some wallet that will support the forked chain?

I don't think it would be wise to put any faith into bitcoin unlimited at what has happened today being evident  it is not something to rely completely on for anyone who has even a BTC invested into the blockchain.

where do you get information if bitcoin core(BTC) can swap to bitcoin unlimited(BTU) 1:1
you can share you get information
and youre information valid or not, or only issue, until now BTU not ready

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-exchanges-unveil-emergency-hard-fork-contingency-plan/
https://m.poloniex.com/press-releases/2017.03.17-Hard-Fork/

wow poloniex still support bitcoin core?

Well, this is mean bitcoin unlimited can be activated in this year as bitcoin unlimited seems get 40% approval? Last time I saw it about 26% acceptance afterWu Jihan, founder of the world’s largest mining organization Antpool stated that "We will switch our entire pool to Bitcoin Unlimited” it looks like bitcoin unlimited will be the winner.

or both bitcoins will be the losers..

^This... I am/was a supporter of Bitcoin since it was 2 weeks old... but the issues rising with bitcoin in the past two years are not being handled... instead a lot of development is spend in "solutions" that make bitcoin less attractive to use it in the long term. The only reason that I still have bitcoins is that you more or less need it for trading many alts. Which makes these alts also vulnerable to the price whims you see with Bitcoin, due to jokes like BU and alike.

only in the case of a split, if BU will be the new main chain core will be forgotten, but exchange already said that they will see BU as an altcoin, so it's not clear how the things are going, i doubt we would have double of our coins, would be silly because everyone would dump on the exchange

current prices at bitfinex - looks like BCC and BCU are overvalued as they add up to more than actual BTC price. but as soon as there will be margin trading available for them they will probably get closer to reality. or bcu price drops even more, will be interesting.

BTC/USD: 999
BCC/USD: 718
BCU/USD: 294

edit> actualy i got cool trade idea now:) selling short BTCUSD and buying BCCUSD could be safe trade. I have to think it through.

Haha, yes, actually, exchanges could already list non-existed forks !  That would be fun !   
 ;D

oh yeah its good idea dude  ;D

Relax Bitcoin is not going out anywhere soon despite hard-fork or whatever happens. Bitcoin also has a strong brand other cryptos don't have and will not anytime soon. I also don't expect BU to win over Core team. The battle continues because both sides have their own bias but after things settle we are going up. People just can't understand this because they're in a very altcoin euphoria.

Sane and normal people support bitcoin core, not poloniex, 22 exchanges support core. Only greedy Chinese miners or people who want cheap bitcoin support unlimited.

Apparently, the most powerful companies in the Bitcoin community feel that a fork network division is becoming inevitable. Yesterday's statement certainly stunned the investment market. Many of the world's top Bitcoin stock exchanges, including Bitfinex, Shapeshift, BTCC, Kraken, Bitstamp and ten others have issued a statement detailing their contingency plans if there is a network split.

Deja Vu.
Hardfork, sneaky chinese miners, greedy exchanges.

ETC already did it!

A joint venture of big exchanges already took stand against this hard fork so need to be worry about this. This unlimited version will be treated like an altcoin and current BTC wont get effected by this.

Bitcoin Unlimited is doomed now that I've shown it is based on faulty math (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1819153.msg18250390#msg18250390). This is fundamental and the entire concept of unlimited block size is flawed. Once the market digests my revelation, there will be dumping of mining nodes for Bitcoin Unlimited. Roger Ver you really need to get better peer review of the projects you support. You are making so many YUGE technical errors and promulgating incorrect technical information. Shame on you.

of course its good.actualy more than just good :D they are in fact the same core bitcoin instrument, only the second one is 250 dollars cheaper now.
free money on the table 8)

would it be like ETH - ETC?

if you have BTC you will automatically have the same amount of lets call it BTC-U?

Bitcoin unlimited can create real chaos in the market. If you conduct a hardfork, then this should not lead to the creation of two chains, Bitcoin must switch to a new protocol without separation.

This is an illusion.  Markets don't digest mathematical revelations. 

I think that the problem with the analysis is that you don't know the elasticity of the demand for transactions.  The mathematics makes the assumption of fees independent of the pressure on the fee market.  But the game is much more complicated than that: you have miners that set their own secret limits on the blocs on which they will build, and the blocs they will try to orphan, while they have their own other secret limits on the blocs they will make themselves.

In your math, you presume that network transaction time is important, but for the moment, this is not the case.  By the time it is the case, that it, by the time that blocs will be so big that it is network capacity that limits time, and not the mining time itself, bitcoin will probably be gone since long.  Because miners have mutual interest in improving the network links between them.  If they put 100 GB/s optical links between their nodes, before transmission times become important as compared to their own average bloc mining times (multiples of 10 min), you get an idea of the bloc sizes we're talking about !

As long as bloc transmission times are small as compared to local bloc finding times, network resources do not play a significant role.   What plays a much bigger role is the (in)elasticity of user demand for transactions.

The battle will be a complex dynamics of secret orphaning sizes and own sizes.   There's a contradictory force: own advantage, which is to MAKE bigger blocs, and collective advantage, which is to make smaller blocs, and trying to guess how big is the chance that by you orphaning a big bloc, you are in fact making an orphaned bloc yourself on top of it, or you will inspire others to join you.

In other words, totally undefined consensus :)  Big fun.  That said, most probably, there will be simply a slow divergence in the bloc size that is generally accepted ; miners may now and then try a few bigger ones, and if they get accepted, this becomes the new size, so essentially the fee market gets relaxed. 

Most probably, they will make 1 MB blocs for a while, then some will try 1.1 MB blocs.  If that passes, most will make 1.1 MB blocs, until some try 1.2 MB blocs.  And so on.  One will most probably not come back down.  So during times of high transaction rates, the bloc sizes will increase because miners are greedy, and then this new limit will stay there until there's another campaign of spam, moving the bloc limits so high that it usually doesn't matter.

Yes.  On exchanges, that's not clear, but on chain, yes.

Let's put that to a test right now. I am going to refute you and let's see if the market is paying attention, because miners damn well better be paying attention (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1819153.msg18252539#msg18252539).

Perhaps you haven't noticed that before I made my shocking math post, the Bitcoin price was declining, since I made my post then the BTC price has risen 5% and miner support for BU has declined (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1833771.msg18252777#msg18252777). I think the market is paying attention and that is why I am following up with more explanation (when I should be sleeping instead because it is 2:30am where I am and I am on medications).


One thing is very clear, and that all those strategies were already in play. What unlimited block sizes bring that is new is they hand another club membership tool for the large pools and mining farms to use against those who don't adhere to their cartel (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1819153.msg18252539#msg18252539).


But it is instantly the case when the block size is unlimited and transaction fees can be as small as any level of spam one wants to incentivize (or even miners paying themselves the transaction fees so they can spam the other miners will huge block sizes with the disproportionate profits going to those with more hashrate, faster propagation, and secret signing agreement cartels (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1819153.msg18252539#msg18252539)).


Incorrect. I refer you to the research on optimal mining strategies. You are behind the curve of the current knowledge of the experts in the field.

---

You *really* believe that ?  
First of all, nobody believes really that BU will activate, no ?  Of course 1 MB blocs are with us for ever, and BU only serves to keep Segwit away.  No miner in his right mind would push BU for real.  So I don't see how your analysis of why BU would be bad for miners, would have the slightest bit of influence, as BU won't happen.  Miners never intended that. They always knew it was bad for them. The god-given present of 1MB blocks, put in for reason or by clumsy mistake, is not going to be wasted.

You also see this, BTW, because in your examples you talk about network delay effects.  But as I pointed out, these only start making an effect on mining if the network delays become not negligible to the mining time taken to obtain a bloc.  We are talking about hundreds of GB blocs here, because we are talking about average bloc finding times of ten minutes.  If you have several GB/s links (which, as a miner, is perfectly affordable), you'd need to make spam blocs of tens or hundreds of GB before your network delay effects start playing a role.  That's not reasonable. 

So before unlimited blocs start making the slightest bit of advantage for a cartel of miners, they would have lost out because of the low fees that a relaxed fee market would bring. 

No, miners like small blocs with hard limits.  They are not going to throw away that great gift from Satoshi.

How can that be if all blocs are now 1 MB ?  How can there be strategies in place with orphaning blocs with sizes you do not like if they are all equal to the maximum size ?

Size of blocks is the not the only way to play those sort of games. Withholding blocks with a delay is equivalent (i.e. a form of selfish mining). I am not going to cover all the details and scenarios now and relate it all to your discombobulated post. Sorry I've got higher priority work to do, than arguing with people who think they are making a point but don't realize they are not. I suggest you study all the research first, before attempting to get into a detailed discussion with me. I did (or at least much of it).

BCU is definitely cheaper but i don't think it will suddenly burst, it could be dragged below 200 later when a troll suddenly find their way to create a fud of their own. i'm not a supporter of any, i'd rather be moving to a not divided coin. look where ETC now, there not even a single thing is going on in there except the Chinese exchange creating an app which until now it had never been released.

I don't think that BTU will ever happen. This is just FUD. I don't think miners will abandon the biggest and strongest network and risk losing all the value BTC already has

Is it just luck to often be in the right place at the opportune time? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1819153.msg18254205#msg18254205)

 ;D

My point is: in this world, only very few understand the kind of subtleties you are addressing.  And those that understand it, knew already that BU was not going to happen - maybe not for the same reasons than your analysis, but there are many reasons why BU is not going to happen as long as bitcoin has its brand name of first mover.  There are hundreds of reasons.  So your sophisticated extra reason, only comprehensible for a very small fraction of people, and a still smaller fraction of influencial people voting in the market, could not have any significant market influence.

BU is not going to happen, but not because it is erroneous.  Your debunking of DASH didn't stop the market from appreciating it.  Markets don't follow rational arguments full of maths, but cheap propaganda.  Your propaganda is of bad quality, sorry  ;)

Dash doesn't have a market. It is allegedly a couple of guys working for Evan Inc. running accounts at the major exchanges buying and selling from themselves. It is a greater fool pyramid scheme.

You even stated that no one with large size dared tried to enter that market without a deal with Evan Inc.. So that tells you Roger Ver is in bed with the alleged "fraud" (aka dis-aggregate non-market) or he didn't buy much Dash.

For this very reason, Evan Inc. can in theory push the "market" as high as they want. I think they will be cautious about surpassing 1 Billion USD though, for fear of drawing the ire of the SEC.

Except if they grow the pyramid too fast (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1820428.msg18249950#msg18249950) and can't sustain those who want to cash out:


The Dash pyramid scheme will continue to have an advantage in FOMO over any aggregate freer market, until the base of the pyramid can't grow fast enough (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1820428.msg18249950#msg18249950) to allow the earlier buyers to cash out:

Yes, I agree, but I'm convinced that they do have greater fools flooding in now.  Much, much less than the numbers would let you believe (that is the centralized market manipulation), but they are flooding in nevertheless.  Otherwise, their game would be useless.  These games are never useless.  The first players always make a lot of money, and the mass of fools, well, gets fooled.

The art of pumping, of course.  Actually, limiting the pump is a great time: you dump slowly on fresh blood streaming in :)  The best part of the game !  When you have a big reserve of cash and a big reserve of coins, you can steer this perfectly.  When you see people start to cash out, you buy with cash and pump the price, so that their FOMO stops them from cashing out.  When you see that there's a buying frenzy by FOMO that would pump too hard and make people take benefit, crumbling the pyramid, you dump on them.
People need to have the feeling that now and then, the market stabilizes, but that "the moon" is near.

If you do it right, you end up converting your stash of coins, by dumping on FOMO newcomers, into a huge pile of cash, which you need to use partially some times, to counter the feeling of crashing.  Small "corrections" you can allow for, that gives confidence to analysts that the price is "consolidating" ; you need enough cash to be able to counter any attempt at "taking benefits".

I think they are doing it like true masters.

When do you stop ?  When your stash of coins is exhausted :)

It helps when the whale/cartel manipulator's (aka Evan Inc's) stash of both DASH and BTC is very large compared to base of the pyramid of non-cartel (aka the float of) DASH hodlers. And your stash never shrinks if the supply of new buyers is growing faster than the base of hodlers (who could compete with the manipulator by selling).

Also the masternode scheme further reinforces this in at least two ways:

1. The hodlers are not selling because they are earning ROI paid in newly minted DASH.
2. The non-cartelized hodlers are paid less minted coins ROI than the cartel, so the cartel is continually diluting their free market competition. (This is diminishing over time as their block reward shrinks although not if transaction volume x fees is offsetting increasing)

The only way the scheme is defeated is if the supply of new buyers becomes MUCH lower than those who want to cash out. Then the cartel has to expend their stash of BTC to prop up the price. So they would instead allow the price to crash, because their goal is to obtain BTC (which can be traded for real fiat money) for this worthless token DASH which they printed out-of-thin-air for themselves.

So from the crashed price, they could buy out all the bagholders and renew the pump process again (while not losing much of their BTC stash).

So that is why I say, that at nosebleed levels, Dash is likely to have crash event at some point, especially people stop believing Dash's InstantX offers anything worthwhile (e.g. when Ethereum and Bitcoin both get instant transactions). I had already linked to the math security errors and design flaws of InstantX, but the n00bs prefer their delusion and only a competing ecosystem with the same features and more adoption will defeat their technological ignorance and delusion.

We are not quite there yet, but at another 4 - 10X the current Dash price, it is possible depending on what happens with other developments interim.

The long-term death of Dash is when some project has moved on to attain millions of users adoption and Dash offers no features that aren't already provided by that mainstream project. Then no one will buy Dash's hype any more. It will be like Steem with a crashed price and loss of speculator confidence in their ability to FOMO pump it to fools again.

how this can work without them losing money, if the price increase like it's happening? you can't manipulate and create value out of thin air, you need more money to raise the value, and other people like miners dump on their manipulation, so they are giving away money for free? this sound stupid to me and it's not what it's happening, i think dash is being pumped with bitcoin dumping, newbie move from one place to another with their silly trading

@Ayers agreed there is new greater fool BTC incoming. The key distinction is that allegedly there is only one coordinated whale/cartel in control (instead of multiple uncoordinated, competing whales) who will run away and let it crash to ~1% of its price in order to conserve their BTC stash in a stampede spiral event (which hasn't happened yet because there is sufficient supply of new fools incoming and the base of the pyramid of hodlers who could stampede is always being diluted relative to the cartel's percent of the money supply by the compounding asymmetrical masternode ROI scheme). Unlike in an aggregate market wherein bagholders could at least get out with say only -80% loss or something reasonable.

It is quite an elaborate scheme. You have to wrap your mind around it holistically. The masternodes are the cartel (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1830554.msg18261835#msg18261835) (technically a masternode isn't a hashrate miner, but because the masternodes are subsidized asymmetrically they can also be the miners then selfish mine and gain more asymmetric rewards).

Please read my post immediately before yours where I replied to @dinofelis's latest post.

Note ETH may be similarly structured but without the masternodes (unless someone has an unreleased more efficient implementation of the ETH PoW algorithm, which I saw someone allege) and with better ecosystem marketing and hype than Dash:

yeah, but there are still people who think its soo awesome ::)
Im not getting this hype

Spoetnik this is why your "developers should work for free" communist power vacuum doesn't work:

Here is my opinion. To get your BTU you must move or keep your bitcoin on the direct wallet which means you're using the software wallet. BTU will be running on the different chain or in this time I will be believing about the forked chain from the original bitcoin itself. So, you must wait until the forked chain will be fully activated. And the bitcoin unlimited dev will make an announcement or a method for you to get your Bitcoin unlimited.

About the distribution of the bitcoin unlimited by the exchange site is depending on the exchange site itself. I think they will try to distribute the bitcoin unlimited coin with same equal to the original bitcoin.
If you're having 2 bitcoin on the bitfinex wallet and you will get 2 bitcoin unlimited and you can manage it on the token manager. I think you must read the bitfinex announcement and it's a reliable source for you.

Afaik, the problem is that without replay protection (which apparently BTU refuses to add), you would end up transferring your BTU when ever your transfer your BTC (and vice versa if BTC doesn't have replay protection). This was apparently a problem during the ETH/ETC split wherein some people tried to sell one or the other, but ended selling both as the transaction got relayed to both forks.

You can't even be sure an malevolent actor won't send your transaction from one peer network to the other.

I actually haven't studied this technical detail, so I might have an incorrect understanding.

It is probably time to sell some BTC and move to an altcoin for the time being:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1819153.msg18284974#msg18284974

I would seriously consider making that hedging move asap.

No we don't have to move our bitcoin core to BTU it will be automatically doubled / replicated. And besides that is still on debate and this is just politics. As of now, there's no real deal on this BTU however there are a lot of people that wants to migrate on this "rogercoin" but you don't have to worry about it.

How can we know if the fork  is going to happen?

I see unlimited hash power is about 37%, way below 51%

As far as I understand, BU is an unilateral hard fork, meaning they still accept, on their chain, "old style" blocks (and even Segwit blocks).  In as much as that is right, it would be extremely careless for them to fork with a very small majority, because they could be orphaned if ever their majority gets lost.  If it were a bilateral hard fork, no such danger exists of course, they could even fork at 20%.

But BU cannot fork at 51% (technically, they can, but it is suicide), because the slightest bit of loss in hash rate makes their big blocks being orphaned, maybe a few weeks from now: imagine the disaster !  All BU transactions gone, as if they never took place !

Moreover, the exchanges listing BU as an alt coin, BU would lose the only thing bitcoin has going for it: its brand name.

However, if BU forks at 75%, they are pretty sure to survive for at least a while, the time people "vote in the market".  Moreover, the OTHER bitcoin, left with only 25% of hash rate, would be in serious problems: only a block every 40 minutes, and only hope to get it fixed 2 months from now, UNLESS they hardfork too and change difficulty "by hand".  Major cluster fuck for "normal bitcoin".

All normal bitcoin users would see their wallets come to a halt until they upgrade to the latest, hardforked version of "true bitcoin", with a hard fork !

Exchanges might reconsider their stance if the "true bitcoin" is a minority chain with a lot of technical difficulties and no transactions, and BU, majority chain, happily running, and call BU "bitcoin".

So BU would kill itself with a small majority, but would have serious chances to get the brand name and kill off the old chain if they had a LARGE majority.

Which miners will never give them.

AFAIK It will be like it was at ETH when ETC was released. You will get BTU in proportion with your BTC holdings.

awesome, BTU is solving the problem of BTC, BTC can be possible if syncor with BTU it will be better, so that BTC is the BTU and BTU is BTC. or BTU is the largest number of BTC contract, this will not eliminate the BTC price is too much.

same thing will go and what will be the benefits of this to bitcoin holder aside from acquiring benefits with its value? its barely
needed to keep an eye from this debate for us not to be left behind.

It doesn't really matter at what hasrate they fork. BTU will still be an alt and Polo said they might not even list it. And they can fork at at any %. They don't need to wait until 51% or 76% or any other number.

Mate you still have time to think about this. Look where we are at now
https://blockchain.info/fr/charts/bitcoin-unlimited-share

Not with an unilateral fork.

Perhaps some of you may want to go comment in the thread I started in Bitcoin Discussion. I don't often comment over there...

How come free btc will have it wont until the gov is dead

without the right consensus they can not fork, otherwise they would end with an altcoin at 100%, after all all the altcoin are hard fork of bitcoin without reaching any consensus, this is the point of consensus to have the original chain upgraded and not a new one

To me it seems the whole Bitcoin Unlimited episode is a hoax, designed to lever the spread between extremely cheap signalling costs and extremely large returns on market movements.

maybe its not a hoax just a few people try to make some real good changes to btc, but i guess they will not succeed, even if their purpose would be good. Better leave BTC as is

Any one want to buy a million ASIC doorstops (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1837136.msg18323609#msg18323609)?

It could disrupt everything,better leave bitcoin as it is,I consider Bitcoin Unlimited as another altcoin like all the other bitcoin clone here,unless there's 80 to 905 consensus by all the major stakes holders I doubt if it can move forward ..

The price rise of the BTC is now because people realized that no hard fork will happen?

yup. Panic sell ended

I totally agree the price drop was due to Bitcoin unlimited threats to Bitcoin but now that the threat is gone,traders confidence returns,but Bitcoin Unlimited could become another major altcoin and could receive respects from the altcoin traders.