Bitcoin Forum

Never forget that VISA has fast, cheap payments with a market cap of $207 Billion, Gold is expensive, slow and inconvenient with a market cap of over $7 Trillion.

Yet we have idiots like ver that want to turn bitcoin onchain transactions into paypal 2.0 deleting the gold-like features of bitcoin with a conservative blocksize, instead of building the fast, cheap payments part on top of that as the objectively correct, sane way to do it.

Franky1/jonald's bullshit in 3, 2, 1...

It's obvious bitcoin losses all its value if it's layer 0 losses his decentralized node network with the gold type features.

The reasonable thing to do is build layers on top of that robust, slow, expensive but decentralized core.

Blowing that base up so people can buy onchain starbucks faster and cheaper is the definition of nutjob.

If we already have a paypal, why do we need another one  ??? it's just Ver's pretext to take over bitcoin

Bitcoin is good enough as it is now and so integrating it with paypal is not a wise decision since it will complicate things about bitcoin. Bitcoin can move and be accepted as an exchange for goods without using paypal. If bitcoin will be integrated into paypal it will slow things and though there will be an increase security accessibility will be limited.

besides when sidechain and lightning comes, paypals gonna die  ::)

So we're comparing a company with the amount of gold in the world.
How about we do this for "oil marketcap" , or even better "coal market cap" if we run out of oil.

You're comparing the value of timber (timber guys not tinder) with the share prices of IKEA.

It's perhaps not the best comparison, but it's all about the idea.

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No one beside a few paid shills will support BU and everything that it stands for. Ver has lost its credibility, and so has his fellow keyboard gangster Jihan Wu. If they want to fork Bitcoin, then let them have fun with their altcoin. The majority of the community and services such as exchanges stand firm behind Core, and that's what's important. But I am fairly sure that when things start to get serious, and a fork seems imminent, that pools will pull out and shift to either a neutral perspective, or start to signal Segwit support.

Visa is neither fast nor cheap  ;D Visa network is supported by banks and banks never gonna support bitcoin but it is supported by large community of common people.

When marketcap for bitcoin will grow to $1 trillion which i think it will within next few years. Price will be almost 100x than all FUD regarding bitcoin will be over.

right. i don't think many people realise the amount of time and steps that it takes for a visa payment to end up as real cash in the merchant's account.

https://i.imgur.com/WPi9LYP.jpg

it's a real shame bitcoin is such a hard sell to consumers, because for merchants it's almost perfect.

People are idiots and don't understand actual confirmation in VISA takes several days yet they cry and complain about lightning network being "too centralizing". Go figure.

We could beat the entire banking industry with segwit+LN+sidechains but a couple idiots are blocking progress.

the thing is though that all that craziness is the merchant's problem. the customer never sees anything that ain't seamless.

the eternal problem is that bitcoin introduces hassle on the customer side. either that's obtaining it which is regularly reported to be a nightmare, or there's the security/volatility thing.

the only thing that might tempt non users right now would be deep discounts but i don't see where the margins would be for that. i guess more bitcoin usage would introduce far bigger savings eventually all the way along the supply/retail chain that could be passed on.

OP, is saying the obvious thing that most people are missing.... Some people want compete with a GIANT with less flaws than another GIANT with some

flaws. So in affect, we should concentrate on using Bitcoin where other commodities fail. Bitcoin can be both a payment option and also a store of value,

but it needs to be a lot better to compete as a alternative payment option.  ::)

LN will improve Bitcoin to a level, where it might be a good payment method and still be a better Store of Value network. {better than gold}  ::)

You got any supporting things for bitcoin getting trillion dollar market cap in next few years. As long as we are struggling with scalability issues, I am afraid, we cannot think about getting  trillion dollar market capitalization.

It seems segwit is going to win now, but what they will plan up to beat the capabilities of Visa once the shrunken transactions reached their limits.

There is nothing guaranteed, nobody have thought that bitcoin will get over 10 Billion marketcap within 8-9 years but it have already gained that.

We have to think positive, despite of current block size debate with increasing demand for bitcoin price will grow with time.  ;D

Nobody in the developed world gives a fuck about bitcoin, the only usage is a better gold. Only with lightning network and instant cheap, global transactions we would get mainstream usage, otherwise people aren't going to care, but miners are blocking segwit.

But looks SegWit is really important for the Lightning Networks. The miners are so greedy and they don't care about the convenience for the bitcoin users itself.

Bitcoin users = life for the miners, There are no bitcoin users and no fees for their pouch.

It's pretty cool to see how much money is lurking within the market cap of VISA compared to Gold. I would purchase Gold more than I would borrow money from VISA. If the Virtual Market cap of VISA suddenly goes down to nothing and becomes worthless then people would flock to Gold and Gold already has a 7 trillion market cap so that says a bunch right there.
Sad thing is that people will see the statistics and still try to borrow money from VISA because they wanted an extra pair of the same video game discs that they had a while ago.

Old picture.
True range.

https://i.imgur.com/kJLuBLT.png

Does anyone understand Bitcoin getting $50 billion market cap would still be largely trivial?

Here you go see:
http://imgur.com/a/rXsr8
Image above is Visa vs Bitcoin vs Gold ETF vs S&P 500 stocks

Bitcoin: +800+%
Visa: +112%
S&P 500 stocks: +50%
Gold ETF: -(14%)

I go into the dynamics of this and how money works in this post: "Hacks & puppets & forks - how to destroy bitcoin"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1834310.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1834310.0)

It's very clear exactly what gold's intended purpose is though.  Bitcoin's value is based on both its use as a currency and its gold like properties, so it needs to have both at least to some extent.  Transaction fees should be high enough to create a fee market without making people flock to altcoins (to be honest, for a majority of people to go to a specific altcoin it would take some very, very high fees, especially since a lot of people view Bitcoin as an investment as well).

A more reasonable comparison though would be the market cap of fiat currency versus gold - then you'll find the reality.  Fiat currencies are worth many, many trillions of dollars - even the dollar is worth many trillions of dollars.  You forget that most average people actually hold their savings in that crap, just because they can hand over some cash and they know that it's done - and even with digital fiat, it's done from their perspective.

Yes, for merchants it's perfect. You get paid first. You get paid fast. Your profit is guaranteed whether you deliver a product or not (just ask Butterfly Labs). The only way your customers can guarantee that they will get their product is if your Bitcoin customers go running to mommy government (like the SEC) and beg them to interfere with your free liberal anti-big bank coin to get your money back for you (and even that didn't get back all the money from BFL).

For consumers, it's somewhat less than perfect. The majority of people that got their money back from Butterfly Labs used PayPal to pay for their mining equipment. So PayPal saved a bunch of bitcoiners asses and returned their funds. The reason fraud protection exists is because it's too easy for unscrupulous businesses to fuck tons of customers and run away. Fraud protection costs money. That's why the extra costs are associated with using a credit card, debit card and most types of main stream payment methods.

It's been easy for BitPay and others to sell the idea of accepting Bitcoin to businesses. It hasn't been so easy to convince the average joe to go out and buy Bitcoin to shop with for anything other than black market contraband because they don't need another unsafe method of spending money. They can just send cash in the mail for that.

This is an interesting discussion but I think we will get there on time, bitcoin is growing and it will surely grow in the future. I would not limit my imagination for now, the only basis of my prediction in the future is based on the increasing number of transactions on a daily basis and it significantly increase compared to the past years. Bitcoin system should be able to compete with them in time and it will happen soon, let's watch for that the development is going on and looks fast.

not several days but months, because you can do chargeback up to 180 days, which is insane compared to bitcoin

they can't udnerstand that the electronic money they see coming fast on their bank account are there because there is a guy changing a little number on his computer for you

that numbers has zero value, and the real money connected to it come much later, but to speed this process up they do this trick