Bitcoin Forum

Rumors says that code of ASICBOOST has been discovered at Antpool.
If it is the case that Bitmain has secretly incorporated ASICBOOST into the T9 and S9`s they will be more or less worthless if segwit is launched and thats why Bitmain is fighting like maniacs to use Bitcoin Unlimited.
Can anyone reveal what hasrate a "real" S9 and T9 then will be putting out on the segwit network without cheat?
Do we have to take 20-30% of present hashrate pr unit?

Let's take a 12.93Th/s S9 for example.
You mine it at Slush or Kano pool for example.
There is no support for the Asicboost.
You get the 12.93Th/s hash rate.

There would be no 20-30% drop to our current hash rate.

Also there is not yet proper proof of the Asicboost being used in the main Bitcoin network.
The Asicboost method has been proved to exist, for sure, and that Bitmain is involved in that with bmminer configurations.
But we can't be exactly sure if it has being used yet in the main Bitcoin network.

So are you saying if those same miners are pointed at Antpool, you will have a gain over other vendors ?

Until there is no proof of gain being reached with Asicboost, I would say there is no gain in the current Bitcoin network.
I would guess, and now this only a guess, that being able to use Asicboost would require a change in the Bitcoin protocol.
This could have being proposed in the Bitcoin Unlimited protocol and would explain Bitmain's strong support on the BU.

I guess if those same miners are pointed at Antpool by BITMAIN, they will have a gain over other Bitmain's asic miners owners...

That Sam Cole guy (KNC Miner) said that the only efficient way to use ASICBOOST is with a custom ASIC chip (Different from S7/S9). Since it would use less wafer space. And it would be completely useless if Segwit is launched.

However there is no proof if these actually exist.

Timo Hanke’s asicboost paper explains the benefits and hardware prerequisites quite well. If I understood it right, there is no need for changing the Bitcoin protocol to enable it, it just has to be designed in the ASIC and one would need a custom miner software. So in theory all S9 could already run with asicboost and nobody would know.
But the paper also shows, that if you want the full asicboost potential in terms of silicon area and energy efficiency, the resulting ASIC could only be used with asicboost.

So if Segwit would prohibit asicboost (I don’t know if this is really the case), these kind of ASICs would be garbage.

I also guess that if somebody implemented asicboost in their ASIC (most likely anybody with <0.10 J/GH ;) ) they probably added a kind of a “legacy” mode, which would enable a classic operation mode again, in case that somebody changes the protocol. This would cost silicon area, but still saves a lot of power.
But maybe they were just too greedy to add this backup solution.

I just noticed a frase in Bitmain`s statement from last night re. ASICBOOST.

One line really got my attention:

http://i64.tinypic.com/33nyliu.jpg



So, that line tells they have tested or seen ASICBOOST on main net, but not quite as the patented way......
They also states they want to have the advantage of ASICBOOST in China for their hosting facilities....Am I the only one feeling this knowledge should have been out to the masses so the network would grow and transactions faster ?

I feel like people have no concept of what segwit or asicboost actually is....they just see some reddit post demonizing it and fall in line when they really dont have a clue what it does or how it affects things. Everyone is so focused on calling bitmain the devil they dont care about the truth. Its like burning someone for being a witch back in the day...there was no basis in reality for any of the claims levied against people yet they still burned because the unintelligent masses would gather in mindless mobs and parrot what one or two loudmouths would say until everyone believed it to be true.

Ditto and also +1
It is the proverbial Tempest in a Teapot and much adieu' about nothing.
Please let this subject just die...

Lulz, so since joining Bitmain, you've been dumbed down to a '+1' level poster who knows nothing about what his company is actually doing? :)
Why not provide some information? Or you don't know what your company is doing so you shouldn't be posting at all?
You should also update your sig, you don't work for spondoolies :P

The original firmware of the early S9, before they were sold to the public, included a change to the stratum protocol to support the document I posted in the S9 thread.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1493601.msg15634328#msg15634328

The S9 didn't work on ckpool due to a stratum connection mode incompatibility.
Yes pre-sale S9s were tested on ckpool.
They 'modified' the stratum change so it works without failing to connect to ckpool.

Of course as mentioned above, this is verified here also:
https://blog.bitmain.com/en/regarding-recent-allegations-smear-campaigns/

If they were using the 'Overt' method, you'd see it in the block headers.
If they were using the 'Covert' method, it would mean a power saving, so not a direct hash rate increase of each miner, but an overall hash rate increase due to more available power.

Most likely they are using the 'Covert' method.
Their blog pretty much implies it by not denying it, and confirming it's in their miners, and saying they have paid for the rights for it in china.

I'll agree with kano aside from one point, re:
Actually Bitmain said "they have the patent on it in China". Emphasis to 'in China' is required. If the Published Authors behind ASICBOOST did not file for copyright/patent protection in China or for that matter most any other specific country then they are Boned. Legally Bitmain is well within their right to claim it as theirs (in China) and do note that to cover their ass they specifically mention their 'right to use in in their mining operations located in China.

In other words, the logic may be present in the ASICs but to minimize Export issues (patent/copyright infringement) it does not run on miners outside of China (so far they say). Not saying that it is right -- just that that is how International law views it.

Been there, done that. Filing for International patent coverage is a Bitch and a half... At least THAT is one thing that the EU made easier for those concerned. File once and covered for all member States. Asia OTH....

NoFuzzy, that was a quick turn around  ;)
I can confirm that Kano did discover this with the first batch of S9, I was at that time pointing my S9's at kanopool and we did have a lot of discussion about the behaviour of the S9.
Anyway, I feel it's a cheat and I think the only way Bitmain can get a slight trust back is to open this feature for everyone who owns Bitmain miners.

Xir, you miss my point: this kerfuffle over asicboost is IMHO pretty pointless. According to the Bitmain blog 'others' (Avalon/BitFury/BW?) also have the logic in their chips. That I have no reason to doubt. Thing is, if AB was/is so great, it would be in use by all the miner makers and after a blip in diff everyone would be mining at the same level again.

https://medium.com/@vcorem/the-real-savings-from-asicboost-to-bitmaintech-ff265c2d305b

Thanks for the info -- bookmarked for future reference :)
I wonder if Bitmain's Chinese Patented method of using Merkle Collisions (I do like that name better...) lists your work and that of the ASICBoost Authors as Prior Art? I would hope that the Chinese Patent process would at least require mention of that...

Rather helps confirm my feelings about AB not being worth the fuss given it. thx

#%(*^&#! There I go falling for this freakin' thread again...  :-X

I don't have any information about Bitmain's patent, except rumors that it is copy of ASICBoost.

Found it... Surprised no one else bothered to Google it...
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015077378A1?cl=en
The fact that it lists Timo Tobias HANKE, Sergio Demian Lerner as the Authors suggests to me that Bitmain bought the rights to it (for in China). Hmm. The Plot thickens. ;)
Filed Nov 19, 2014

What you found is Timo & Sergio original patent. Not Bitmain's patent.
The important date is the priority date: Nov 19, 2013
The date the provisional patent was filed.

Ok, this one references Bitmain directly filed in the EU
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?II=30&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20160113&CC=CN&NR=105245327A&KC=A#
Original document https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=20170302&DB=&locale=en_EP&CC=WO&NR=2017031967A1&KC=A1&ND=4#
Interesting that the date of original doc is Feb. 2017...

However, Bitmains patent translated from Chinese https://www.google.com/patents/CN105245327A?cl=en has a Priority date of Aug. 2015.

So Bitmain miners are the best to purchase because of this boost functionality?

NO!
Read the frickin' thread... It is NOT being used (according to Bitmain) and other un-named companies have it or a variant of it in their chips as well so is a moot point. The circuits/logic are present but so far unused, probably because it does not deliver significant real advantage.

So the SegWit will have no effects.

I don't know how ANYONE who mines and who doesn't have access to ASICBOOST could consider it OK (^^ looking at you NotFuzzy).. Mining should be done on an even playing field to promote decentralization, this is what bitcoin is all about. ASICBOOST, while a clever workaround, works against the entire premise of bitcoin. I don't fault Bitmain, they are doing what's in their best interest, OK fine. But it's wrong to be hoarding it to yourself and essentially ripping off your customers. It's wrong to block protocol upgrades, hurting the entire network and slowing growth just for personal gain. The worst part, imo, is that it limits other manufacturers from competing, which hurts all of us miners.

I look forward to the day Segwit activates and I can trust that my mining equipment has the same opportunity to compete as others.

Also, speaking of the Bitmain patent... I probably don't understand the patent aspect properly but how can Bitmain own the Chinese patent, if the real inventors patented it beforehand in other countries? This prior art should invalidate Bitmains claims, doesn't matter if it is filed in a separate country. And last thought on the patent - the inventors took a risk patenting it, a risk that the network would render it obsolete in future updates. I have no sympathy for any patent holder in this space where the patent inherently limits progress.

That is just how International Patent law is. Same applies to Copyright.

Each Country has it's own rules about Prior Art and unless countries have agreements between each other regarding it, to each its own as to what is Patentable. There is no international body nor even general consensus covering it. Why do you think so many products can have multiple individual countries listed as 'Patented in"? Aside from EU member states (file once with EU and covered in all), if you want patent protection in a specific country you must file for the patent in each and every country you are concerned with. My guess why Bitmain bothered to list work by Cannon and Panasonic as Prior Art is because said work by them has a Chinese patent covering it so they had to do it.

The only thing regarding Infringement in these cases that can be done is a Plantiff's country banning imports of the offending product.  An offhand guess is that sticky point is why Bitmain has not activated their version of AB for use outside China (and so they claim, in China either).

Dude,there is no "even playing field" in Bitcoin mining anymore,unless you can make & sell to the public an ASIC miner......

Which no one but those who ALREADY have ASICs can do  ;)

So Bitcoin is already "Centralized" by those Corporate mines & VERY large private mines.....THEY control the network,not the people.

Been like this for over a year now sooooo...your argument is moot   ::)

Try s5 models.
They are very cheap. Only about 80$ and are a 1.15 th/s Speeds!
Their amazing  :D

1) I never joined BitmainTech
2) They are not using the covert method
3) Not interested in getting into an argument with you

How do you know that 2) They are not using the covert method? Why would they patent it and build it into their chipset if they didn't intend to use it? Doubtful they would bother doing it 'defensively'

No I think my argument is still valid. How is another manufacturer / group of investors supposed to get into the ASIC game when Bitmain can monopolize covert ASICBOOST, which is really just a bug in the protocol? It does nothing good for the ecosystem, which is entirely against the point of bitcoin and decentralization.

ASICBOOST has literally nothing to do with the 'point' of bitcoin or decentralization. Its just math....anyone that wants to activate it can make their own pool and do it. Its not like this is some secret monopoly espcially since noone can PROVE it is being used by bitmain

Right so let's go with Gregs BIP and patch and kill covert boost. Then there's nothing to worry about

In a perfect world, yes. But unfortunately most people are not using Bitcoin to help the create a new method of payment and eliminate the need for fiat currency. 
They are using Bitcoin to make a profit. 
A small percentage of people are trying to make a difference. The rest are just trying to line their pockets. :(

Who is for this "decentralization" you speak of?? You or me??? Is there ANYTHING you or me can do about it??

NO....so why are you arguing & to whom?? WE the people can do NOTHING to stop it...again your point is moot  :D

Those who have the market share DO NOT want competition...it has been (for almost 2 years now) & will ALWAYS be a CENTRALIZED market from here on out.

Unless you have several million to lose on designing an ASIC,it can not be changed,that turning point has past long ago.................

Segwit is good for all the independent miners.

The bitmain miners that we have may have asicboost on the hardware but not on the firmware that is sold to us, we get no benefit of asicboost.

Asicboot is patented technology which goes against the spirit of Bitcoin, and the GPL, we should not allow any patented technoly on the Bitcoin network, unless if it is an invalid patent like someone patenting the blockchain or Bitcoin itself, then the patent should be ignore since it is not legit.

I been mining on slushdot and I get the advertised hash rates without the use of asicboost.

Support Segwit it is the way to go, use mining pools that support Segwit.

The fact that US miners don't pay import tax/VAT on their miners is the real scandal, IMHO!

I fail to see how this argument applies to the topic on hand. Your stated argument is also backward of reality. :P

Bzzzt -- wrong. Well partly wrong.

True we pay no VAT however, if the miner is worth more than $2500 YES we do pay Customs Duty. If the shipper does not provide the correct shipping codes like Canaan did for a while we pay Duty regardless of value. Then there is my State's 9% sales Tax which is supposed to be paid on all internet purchases. So, not all rosy this side of the Pond.

To keep this on topic, segwit will have zero effect on what miner hardware is needed.

This thread should just be deleted so people dont read the title and get some crazy idea that segwit will make any hardware obsolete for any reason

Honestly, I read the title and thought to myself, "WTF is this rubbish?" However, I can see how noobies might get confused.

The mods locking it so it drops off the 1st page would be another good option.

Of course us replying doesn't exactly help... <cough>

They will be obsolete whenever BITMAIN wants them to be according to www.antbleed.com

It seems like everybody wants to spam this known vulnerability in every thread.

I can close the post if I New how to?

Look at the lower-left corner at the bottom of the page. You can lock it there.

So I am confused.. I ahve an AntROUTER from bitmain at home.  After segwit activates, do I need to upgrade my AntRouter's firmware so it can generate segwit blocks?