Bitcoin Forum

del

paying anything above say 2% makes it not really beneficial for people/merchants.
- this is because the effort to actually getting bitcoin is one hurdle, then finding a merchant (300k out of 200mill merchants) is another hurdle. so then paying 2%+ to use bitcoin starts to erode all utility.

the only utility then is that the funds are 100% yours, you can send them out without someone elses need to agree to send it or accept it. this is known as a push payment.
- however by removing the push payment utility to openly pay anyone, and turn it into a 'just fund xapo' or 'lock it into an LN channel' removes the permissionless push utility and now funds need a counter party to sign off/agree to the movement of funds

thus now removing the other main utility of bitcoin.

so now the utility has become much like fiat. all we are left with is people that are just looking at the FIAT price daily hoping to get rich quick just to return back to fiat.

leading to the only thing that people will talk about bitcoin being "you can be FIAT rich one day"

Depends, if sending bitcoins remains cheaper than any other form of sending money, then yes. I doubt btc will get up anywhere near that high, anytime soon though. NO worries.

I sort of have to agree. I used to buy gift cards for places like starbucks on a regular basis from sites like gyft as well in 10$ installments. But everytime I buy one now, I end up spending an extra 7%. Coinbase used to have no fees, but they started charging too , recently.

this topic has nothing new or different from the other one apart from being self moderated!

the problem is not "nowadays" it is only during spam attacks where there is a lot of transactions inside the mempool. and yes we all know fees have gone up and we have to pay $0.4 per transactions now to get a high enough priority to get our transaction confirmed faster.

and there is nothing we can do about it apart from paying higher fees during spam attacks, paying less fees when they stop and support a solution you think is best by running a full node or direct your hashpower if you have any.
but making a new topic about the oldest discussion here doesn't make any difference.

If you are talking about the fees which 10%-20% of our bitcoins will deducted from the transaction, then i will say that yes. I will still use bitcoin because it is secure and still fast in doing transactions, it is better for me to pay an average to expensive fees per transaction rather than exposing myself to the internet people. It is just a comfortable currency for me and i will still use it whatever will happen.

Fees are already too high.   :P

The Second and I mean the Second , Coinbase gets off of their ass , and allows direct LTC purchases,
I will have no further use for BTC after that.  :)

Until that moment, I am stuck having to use it.  


 8)

I do not think that many people will use bitcoin if that happens.
Most people use bitcoin for the convenience and if we are charged 10-20% more then it will no longer be a convenient payment option i guess.

i'm lucky that i don't like coffe, and i don't do microtransaction basically never, unless we are talking about food, but even then you can buy food in bulk

with bitcoin i think i'll do every shopping online in bulk, with a minimum threshold far higher than what i'm doing with visa this should at least alleviate the problem a bit

This type of problem would likely become a threat for bitcoin's existence. Who would pay 10-20% of fee? Even rich people would be mad due to the very high fees. Also, this is why bitcoin is still impractical when it comes to a daily basis of usage.

I would rather cash out my BTC instead of using BTC for many transactions, especially on microtransactions. Cash will not require fees when on a face to face payment, so why use bitcoin. I still prefer fiat in using for payments, and bitcoin for me is for earning.

Then use Litecoin

Larger blocks wouldn't change how feasible microtransactions are in the long term.  Microtransactions have never actually been feasible on Bitcoin because the transaction size is changed by how many payments a person has taken in order to spend that amount of Bitcoin.  Transaction fees aren't only insignificant on large transactions because they're similar to the cost of smaller ones, it's also because people who spend large transactions are likely to receive them too, so their fees don't grow very much.  If someone was using Bitcoin as a currency though and 100 people deposit 0.001 into his wallet, when he tries to spend 0.1 it'll be inconvenient as hell.

LN might change it due to the possibility of offchain transactions for them instead.  But it seems unlikely that a consensus allowing it to happen would ever be reached, and even then LN would take years to be pulled out of beta and actually be ready for widespread use or be implemented.

The conflict here is that mining really profitably and getting far with it requires a person to be wealthy.  And since miners basically have the vote for a consensus to be reached, it's a collection of wealthy people which we're trusting to vote in favour of getting less money.  Unless Bitcoin mining wasn't based on profit, which would never happen, a consensus isn't going to be reached and the system isn't going to change.

So basically, paying for coffee with Bitcoin was just a gimmick.  It was never going to be practical in the long term and people who did it thinking that it would be were just following a gimmick in my view.  My theory is that the transaction fees won't get so much higher that it's impractical to do anything, but it will change Bitcoin's key audience to what it was basically destined to be - wealthy people and people transferring large amounts of money (for example, expats sending their money back home).  There are many situations in which people who were aware enough of Bitcoin would do this and use it as a digital asset.

The price will keep rising because people who put money into Bitcoin will be putting more and more in as they trust it more.  The actual user base and practicality is unlikely to change.

nope. why should i burn money for the honor of using bitcoin? screw that. and if i have to buy it in the first place then unless i have money on an exchange already that's another 3-10% in premium for localbitcoins, atm, coinbase. forget it.

OP you have it spot on..... the biggest advantage Bitcoin had over other payment methods were the cheap micro transactions and now with these

spam attacks and the higher fees, this advantage have been nullified. Most people in developed countries do not worry much about high fees, but

for people in developing countries, this is a huge problem because most of their transactions are micro transactions. I paid $7 a day or to ago to

transfer $20 and that is just unacceptable. { This was the default setting for the fee, set by the wallet provider }  ::)

10% or 20%.

Bitcoin transfer fees are still much more affordable than its competitors:

https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2F2m3si04.jpg&t=575&c=a1J87NqTY7l6qA

80 cents, 0.0006 is about the number of stamps a person would put on an envelope to send a letter in the united states.

I've never heard anyone complain about how much stamps cost to send a letter.

One of the selling points for using Bitcoin is that the costs are lower because there is no middle man and low fees so merchants would prefer it over credit cards because it's cheaper. If that's not the case anymore, then it could hold the value of Bitcoin down.

It may be that in the future, Bitcoin will only be used for large purchases so the fees would be a lower percentage of the purchase.

the middle man has been replaced by thouands of groaning machines sucking up a country's worth of electricity. that costs and someone has to pay for it somewhere.

in theory the middle man will always be cheaper. it's a guy with a database. it's the fact you can't trust him not to screw you that counts.

everyone knows fees are a necessity. the block reward has been disguising them. the real cost of a transaction is about $7 but its subsidised. that's always been the case.

Most payment processors charge their customers depending on how much the purchase is. Higher purchase = higher fees whereas in bitcoins, it's not entitely the case. For example A, if it is cheaper to use visa than bitcoin, then I'd go for visa. That simple. I wouldn't frustrate myself so hard on a simple solution which is accessible to me.

As for micropayments, it really is bothering since bitcoin is losing its edge due to tx fees (which is an insane $1-$2 to get your tx on the soonest block possible). Larger blocks 'might' be a temporary fix for the said issue, I suppose.

yes we all are paying the high transaction fees in the bitcoin network and still we are here. why don't we jist switch to some other altcoin, i am sure altcoins do not charge this much for just transferring them to one person to another and in addition if we think its price flustuation matters then it actully depends on us. if we increase its volume and popularity then it can became more stable like bitcoin

Do micropayments through offchain networks instead of blockchain?

Like fund a credit card or something similar and make microbuyings with the balance.

Also 10% or 20% still might still be cheaper for some transactions through more conventional ways, for example, for payments in certains countries, the fees and time required would be too costy

Bitcoin is not meant to send micro transactions and that is how things are going with the current developments, i am not sure whether the vision of satoshi will be like this,but the convenience factor to send micro transaction have to be neglected and we have to start considering bitcoin to store our assets than using it as a currency.

Of course not, you'd have to be crazy to use any method of payment that costs 10-20% extra when you can use a debit or credit card and only spend 2%. Understanding the problem is one thing but how do you solve it?

I exchange btc for cash occasionally and get raped on both ends of the transaction. I don't see any solution or I'd already be using it.

Who are the competitors?

My bank online is free to send money to another person.

BTC isn't feasible at the moment. However if you have got them cheap then its ok. But i don't see the point in eroding my profit because of the current fiasco.

Even if it were priced the same if I was to use Bitcoin, I would still fiat or a credit card. I will only use Bitcoin if I could get a good discount, or if I cannot pay with fiat or credit card, meaning if I had really no choice but Bitcoin. The dark markets is a good example of this.


Micro transactions for what? Coffee like your example? Use cash and spare yourself the headache. What stupid person is using Bitcoin to buy coffee everyday.


I will go with the side that has good developers. If Bitcoin Unlimited was made up of better developers than Core then I could see myself follow them. Sadly they are not.

Short answer. NO!
Why the hell would you do that.Bitcoin means money. If you want just to purchase something do it with the method that is cheaper.

You have a card with rewards , do it with that.The shop offers 5% discount on cash do it with cash.
The cost for bitcoin is 10% extra  show them the finger.

But if the transaction cost is the problem things get complicated. I mean, we all want to support bitcoin and if we stop using it for micro payments then vendors that deal with cheap stuff will most likely not embrace bitcoin because of lack of customers.

And using a credit card that you load with bitcoins and you actually pay usd it's not using bitcoin.

If this becomes a reality I'll stop using Bitcoin for shopping/payments. 10% extra is just too much. It doesn't compensate for the ease of use and security compared to traditional fiat methods. I think I can go further: if this becomes a reality not many people will actually use Bitcoin for anything except trading and maybe gambling.

Asking what we'll do about micropayments is taking a step back: things are already being done and scaling discussions have been ongoing for many, many months.

i dont know why nobody has asked this so far but why are you keep repeating percentages and give huge amounts. i don't get it.
for example how in the world did a transaction cost $5 for you ($25 instead of $20) or is that in cent, that still won't make sense since fee is about 40 not 20 cents!

and also how did you pay 7% extra for a vide card, can you elaborate on that. for example did you pay $18 for a $266 graphic card?

the problem with you and that other thread is that you think you should pay for "anything" with bitcoin. yes it would be neat if we could but since the option is not here yet, then stick to other things bitcoin offers instead.
like the privacy and security and the fact that you don't have to answer to a bank.

I dont think I will still used bitcoin if it would cost 10-20% thats too expensive. I will look for others payment method instead. Im using bitcoin because of its cheaper transactions fees and fast transactions. But I dont think it will happen because people join bitcoin because of less costs.

I think you are making that up. Please show those transactions in the blockchain and I will take back what I said. There is only a very small part of the "Bitcoin population" that really buys with BTC. Most of that occurs in the dark markets.

Unfortunately, this can happen. Now there is a problem with transactions. And it must be solved. If this happens, then I will use the bitcoat only for investment

Yeah bitcoin transaction fees today was so terrible really frustrating if it reach up to 20% transaction fees I will rather use altcoins as an alternative to bitcoins this problem must be solve immediately in-order to maintain the dominance of bitcoins in the market.

Using altcoins to send and do transaction and exchanging it into bitcoin using exchanger is a good idea because it will save a lot of time and it will receive immediately by the receiver but the thing is, it will just like paying 10-20% of your transaction because the fees from buying altcoins (if you don't have yet) and transferring it to the wallet and to the exchanger to change it to bitcoin will give you a lot of hassle.

Near the end of mining wait for big fees.

New customers, who not owns bits of bitcoins, would ofcourse,- buy a cheaper way of spending money from FIAT etc into Cryptocurrency.

Why would I spend more % "money" for Coffé when I buy with Bitcoin when I can just use an alt with less % and more % for mai cafí? oui? si? niet?

nej, one would never use that as a regular consumer to pay more.

butttttttttttt


Would BTC be The Reserve currency in crypto? Most likely atm? Like The Dollar?


"1000k MILLION DOLLARZ SENDING? 600k DOLLARZ NOTHING MINERS BRO'S" ....like ok if some doin big transfers and are big capitalists or watheva , then that high fee model suits and might tie a purpose....but honestly, aint rich people like the most "SAVE MONEY"-attitude in the world? lol would they even wanna use something that is higher than another alternative? would there be a network with no sends and just store of value who have any relevance? I'm 2 n00by to guess tbh


...... I enjoy though to read and watch you all argue and talk, many of should come together in a great conclusion about Crypto as a whole and work together

Pretty simple my fellow bitcoiner
When I clicked the magic button purchase credits (first example) I had a few options
 card/paysafe/bank/bitcoin
Funny how if I would have paid via cc I would have bought 20 for 20usd. With paysafe 20 for 25$ / same as btc.

Second example is when a damn mofo shop was also near scamming me of my precious bitcoin.
How was the 7 % difference obtained? Simple
Different exchange rate, they used 750 instead of 800 or so.
And it was not because of difference between the bitswamp or the bitibexit was because of greedy idiots ;)

If I have only Bitcoin then even if it is 50% extra, I will use it.  And since there is nothing like Bitcoin in its category, I am trapped with its expensive transaction fee.  As of now, do we have choices?  There maybe altcoins but are they accepted by different merchants the way Bitcoin is accepted?  So for a person who's only means of earning is thru Bitcoin trading and other online jobs that pays in Bitcoin, I guess I will be using it until there is an alternative.

Ok I take back what I said. But maybe you used the Bitcoins you earned from your signature campaign to buy those items? Because it would not make sense to buy Bitcoins from an exchange just to purchase those said items. Except maybe for the anonymous casino.

See the thing here is that you put forward saying that in some countries this would make sense, I'd be expecting this to be more third world or developing nations that are forced to be using those horrid wire transfer services that take a disgusting fee out of how much money you put forward.

In that case, yes those people would happily use Bitcoin if they'd be able to save money and be able to ACTUALLY CASH OUT THE BITCOIN WITH EASE.

But in a case like I'm in where I live in a first world country where credit cards and such are pretty prevalent I probably wouldn't be using Bitcoin if it cost that much more, I feel it'd be a waste and wouldn't be worth it anymore.

Though at the current state with the high trans fees I don't like using it.

It definitely is a problem. I have been considering this myself and am not sure if I would be willing to pay that extra 10 – 20 percent. It is a lot to ask when you don’t have to pay that with visa. I am scared this might affect the population of Bitcoin users since they will find out that it is not worth investing in unless they are holding large amounts of wealth that don’t get transferred a lot. We will end up only with people saving their coins and the price will fall. I hope I’m wrong though.

That is a hard question for everyone, because im sure that not many people would accept the fact, that now they need to pay about 10% more, than previously.
It would put the fee so high, that using bitcoin would be really annoying sometimes, even for medium transactions!

I remember many threads, about people discussing is getting a salary in bitcoin except fiat is a good idea.
Fees going so high would probably kill that option, because if the boss needs to pay to 300 people, it is expensive to send so many transactions, with such a high commision.

If you're going to pay your men peanuts or 100$ a month yeah it is going to cost you in terms of percentage.

But for most of EU / North America  the transaction fee is too small to count.
1 max 2 $ at a 2000$ wage is nothing.

Problems start with pole using their hard earned bitcoin.
50 cents extra a coffee, 50 cents extra beer and pizza , 50 cents extra at 4 gallons of gas..
It's going to chew on your walllet like bugs bunny