Bitcoin Forum

I want to ask what arrangement do the financial firms have with Ripple? Do they buy and hold XRP to have it as a stake on the network or do they run Ripple nodes to verify transactions? I keep reading all the news about every bank joining Ripple but there are no clear details. Maybe they are only testing it with no formal arrangement.

https://ripple.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/While-back-at-Ripple-booth....jpg

The new partnerships find Ripple showcasing its reach and influence. New members include MUFG (Japan), BBVA (Spain), SEB (Sweden), Akbank, Yes Bank (India), Axis Bank (India), SBI Remit (Japan), Star One Credit Union (US), EZ Forex (US) and Cambridge FX (Canada).

In an interview, Ripple VP of product, Asheesh Birla explained the company is beginning to define its offerings in more collaborative terms. While its product allows for faster cross-border payments, Ripple is also creating a set of standards for banks to follow while using its underlying tech, he said.

Read the full article http://www.coindesk.com/ripple-touts-blockchain-standards-push-10-new-banks-join-network/

No one knows the answer for this? I have seen 2 Ripple employees post in the forum, I hope they see this thread and give us more information about their arrangement with the banks.

If anyone of you know or have a speculation of what kind of deal they have with the banks let us know. XRP is rising quickly and we need to know the story.

I think these banks try to take advantage of blockchain technology using Ripple, they'll get cheaper swift transactions. And while they still get more money from customers their cost is decreased. Compare Ripple fees and swift fees.
Banking system is changing, they need to adopt this new system. First banks which use this blockchain technology will get one step ahead of their opponents.

Yes wait and see until there are explaining from ripple employees in this forum, will gives us good informations and answers than we just can make speculation about their business right now, unfortunately on their article they doesn't gives us large informations about the projects, should they gives the explaining about their projects on here, i think it will takes the new investors, comunity from here.

They get XRP fro free to build infrastructure. So something to use XRP easier for everyone.

Definitely gonna wait until some Ripple employees comment. There doesn't yet seem to be any concrete information on whether and, if so, how banks are gonna use Ripple. From my perspective, any investment in them currently is pure speculation, although it will pay off hugely if banks do indeed manage to make use of Ripple in a meaningful way.

I said it a thousand times here.. banks don't need Ripple ICO scam coins.. or other Ripple bullshit  ::)
No reputable bank would touch this Ripple crap.

The banks get XRP for free while the cryptocoin followers buy them because they speculate it will have far more greater value than today. That looks like a scam model if what you said is true. How did you know that Ripple gives them away for free to banks?

Can anyone else without as much of a shitty reputation level as this Spoetnik troll chime in?

Does btctalk have an ignore feature yet?

Well the first very well established use-case is to act as liquidity for world's forex movement.
I can go on a explain the whole lot here , or just point you to some really good articles that answer everything u asked. If after that you have any questions, feel free to ask. You got to do some homework by yourself right..

hope these links help :

This is from David Blair, who has been in Treasury for 25 years : https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ripple-vs-swift-payment-revolution-david-blair
this is from Chandan Maddanna, a VP in jp morgan : https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/international-banking-flocks-ripple-chandan-maddanna    ( this article in particular compares and lists exact use-cases of XRP, ETH and BTC at the end , scroll down )


to put it shortly, before internet , networks had to connect to each other, trust each other, work with each other, make their networks "customised" for each other. AFTER internet, all they have to worry about is connecting to internet and make sure their data is a standard internet packet.

like so, after ripple, All banks have to worry about is connecting to RCL and having XRP, and by doing so they can forget worrying about partnering with 100 other organizations, trusting them, holding reserves at their branches, etc etc

Plain , simple whats not to understand ? it is called Network of Value, like Internet is Network of Information. some have dubbed it as IOV ( internet of value )

and the gentleman above is a troller i think. XRP usecase is evry well established and SBI Group japan is even in preparation to LIST and USE XRP for their transfers locally and globally

www.sbigroup.co.jp/english/investors/disclosure/presentation/pdf/170301presentations.pdf

this is their shareholder presentation, you can search for ripple and XRP and see specific slides.

good luck.

until and unless people give sources, you can be rest assured of misinformation. you shoudl look for actual sales and related reports ( after all ripple is a registered, answerable and responsible company, unlike so many other coins who can take of and run with your money anytime ) :

here you go , not trolling, not saying my own opinions either, actual sales and report :

Q4 - 2016 - https://ripple.com/xrp-portal/xrp-resources/q4-2016-xrp-markets-report/
Q1 - 2017 - https://ripple.com/insights/q1-2017-xrp-markets-report/


:-) some groups are sure ganging up to spread mis-information on ripple. may be because they cannot make any money with ripple, unlike other basement coins ? :-) something to think about.

The current active XRP trials , including Commercialization + production :


>>SBI Japan finalizing their trials WITH XRP
https://twitter.com/Chan_Maddanna/status/857400519429697541 & japanese : http://www.sbigroup.co.jp/news/2017/0427_10658.html ( google can translate it for you )

>> Indian NPCI banks ( that is all major banks ) in talks with ripple for direct acct to acct transfers throguh rcl+xrp
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/banking/finance/banking/google-backed-payment-company-ripple-in-talks-with-npci-banks-for-account-to-account-transfers-globally/articleshow/58393329.cms

>> Other Ongoing XRP trials ( not just ripple, DLT etc, XRP Trials )
https://twitter.com/XRPedia/status/855767867110903809

I don't believe in FUD, opinions etc, neither trolling.

I have presented you facts directly from their sources. and this is only a tip of the ice berg.

Best,
f0rmdeep

Banks do not have to buy XRP, so in reality XRP is more of a gimmick / speculation toy. Do you remember hackergold token ? That team that released an ICO on ethereum ? It doesn't have any real usage, but they wanted to make money so that was the only option they found. It wasn't actually needed for their virtual accelerator dapp. They just wanted to capitalise on their dapp effort and simply weren't able to implement a token with real usage.

The same thing is with XRP. It has no usage for ripple or it's partners. It's just a speculation toy. Difference is, ripple own like 70% of total tokens and most tokens aren't even released on the market. The only side that wins from this speculation is ripple, because they can dump more and more coins on the market, dilluting people's investment.

Quote from ripple site "While XRP is not required to transact on Ripple*, it is uniquely positioned to create more competitive foreign exchange (FX) markets for cross-border payments". So basically ripple hopes speculators will attract even more greater fools, creating artificial usage. This helps them because they own most XRP tokens, so they can slowly dump without destroying it's "value" at once.

Proof on their site https://ripple.com/xrp-portal/ . So if you wanna gamble with your money, you're better of playing lottery. Or investing in dogecoin, bitcoindark, potcoin, ETC, Coynie West coin ( does it still exist ? ) and many others. Any of these shitcoins have/will have the same usage potential as XRP. Difference is, ripple has a better marketing because their company works, so basically they are legally "scaming" stupid speculators that think XRP is used by banks.

every transaction on forex - that does not have an intermediary with "providing reserve" needs XRP of equal quantity. At current price, moving 100 USD form Japan to India will need 2500 XRP in reserve and will permanently destroy 1.4 XRP.  ( Learn about Deflationary currency that cannot be created anymore )

even by most conservative estimates moving just 3 billion USD of forex value using ripple cloud solution will lock up everything that is circulating.

So i want to ask you one thing .. WHAT are you talking about ?

UNLIKE you, i provide links on how this will happen :

https://www.xrpchat.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/sbi1.jpg.f52fb881c06519f06992de6966cd0273.jpg
https://www.xrpchat.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/sbi2.jpg.b3d8c3cde0da6cf6969131b17ad1c099.jpg
https://www.xrpchat.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/sbi3.jpg.2bb77b2d079fb8a7619ae059c337be17.jpg
https://www.xrpchat.com/uploads/monthly_2017_04/sbi4.jpg.b8a40298154c64a35bd6da7e24b7caf9.jpg


and all those  slides come from SBIGroup presentation to their stakeholders ... ( not some loonie blog written by propaganda )

here :  www.sbigroup.co.jp/english/investors/disclosure/presentation/pdf/170301presentations.pdf
XRP Usecases on SLIDE 35, 36 and 37


you want to see which all banks are actually running XRP use-cases ?

here go please yourself :

https://twitter.com/XRPedia/status/855767867110903809

want more ?

here : https://twitter.com/Chan_Maddanna/status/857400519429697541

want it form the source ?

here : http://www.sbigroup.co.jp/news/2017/0427_10658.html ( google will be happy to translate it from Japanese to English )

I provided you link from Ripple's website fool. I know you're hoping for more greater fools, won't happen with me atleast. You're providing me links for banks working with ripple. I know that. I was talking about XRP not being needed by banks to use ripple. Get lost.



Sure, GIVE ME FROM THE SOURCE. Oh wait. No mention of XRP, just ripple. As i expected.

Even ripple said the curent surge in price ( from when it was ~250mil ) came from bitcoin side.

Plus, even if XRP actually WAS used. Still, as a speculator there wouldn't be a point to BUY it because banks WOULDN'T buy from you anyway. Doh. They would simply take it from ripple who can make it out of thin air. And as a private company they can release as much as xrp they want. It is not decentralized and users/ miners wouldn't be able to oppose.

Why do you care about Ripple so much?

As a Bitcoin enthusiast, I'm reading your posts opposite of FUD --do you know what I mean? Good press bad press is still press, so there must be something else here.

Are you employed by Ripple or secretly own a huge stash (whale) trying to pitch a tent?

Everyone should be suspicious of embellished content like this; pro or con. It gives Bitcoin a bad rap in my opinion and implicates yourself in the process...but I'm just a nobody ;)

Ripple has potential to work as infrastructure and a gateway to forex markets for liquidity. If banks were to start using it as a medium of exchange, good for them. I don't think that Ripple should be viewed as a competitor of bitcoin because Ripple exceeds on being more of a centralized medium which is something banks can easily rely on in contrast to bitcoin. Decentralization favors the user more than the institutions.

In every one of those links XRP IS MENTIONED. you are misleading people.

@People, please go to those links and study yourself. don't take my word, his/her word, or any word for it. fair and square, read from he companies invested  themselves and make your mind.

this mis-information campaign - what it will do is actually educate people thoroughly to a point, where it will backfire so hard. ...


all for the greater good, evolution shoudl continue. we cannot burn trees just for proving POW of some coin... when it serves no real life purpose. there has to be a better way. ETH and Ripple are better ways forwards.

they don't burn your electricity and computing power for nothing, they do it for good. one resolved logic the other establishes IOV. and i din't come here bitching about bitcoin, because i know value of bitcoin. I myself hold bitcoin.

but i cannot take this misinformation on ripple anymore, which is mainly made for transaction and to remove congestion of the world economy. in fact banks are trying to use ripple so that shops in japan can accept bitcoin with confirmation times less then 1 minute. Go Figure !

@mining1
I'm not sure I follow you. If FI buy XRP whereas from you or not, it raises its value.
Ripple can't make coins out of thin air, and if they could that would ruin all their credibility.
It's decentralized you can run a validator, Mit runs a validator https://charts.ripple.com/#/validators/n9KvSsyJiheyFnivzFqChZ58pQgjwWWuc7Tp28WPzXbkdwqL6P5y

For FI and XRP I suggest to read:
https://ripple.com/files/xrp_cost_model_paper.pdf

www.sbigroup.co.jp/english/investors/disclosure/presentation/pdf/170301presentations.pdf

SLIDE 35, 36 and 37


The more you try, the more you get BUSTED. Great ! its working for XRP's good actually. thank you ! LOL

I simply have higher moral standards. I know money make people act like jerks, but i would never advice anyone to invest in something i would think as bad so i can benefit from it indirectly. Like investing in a project that is as good as any ponzi scheme.

@f0rmdeep your link sucks and proves my point LOL. As you can see in your own links they talk generally about cryptocurrency not just XRP and bitcoin's logo is there aswell. Nothing in your links suggest XRP is even remotely needed. XRP is need for ripple as much as bitcoin, ethereum, or any "insert cryptocurrency here" is needed.\

To be noted, i am not saying ripple doesn't work or isn't succesful, atleast so far. But i am saying, and ripple's team admited it on their own site aswell, that XRP is not needed for ripple.
Proof https://ripple.com/xrp-portal/

And that's the point. XRP isn't a stable currency, the example above looks at XRP as a non volatile crypto. That's why you can pick any cryptocurrency and put it in XRP's place and have the same result. That's why banks don't care about XRP, and that's why ripple admitted XRP is not needed for using their platform.

You have an answer for everything.

Let me quote Joelkatz:

I won't argue, in the end, we will see who is right in a few years.

now its time for you to share your sources, because till now all your have done is speak your mind ( which is perfectly fine )

the entire transaction including cryptographic locks and reservation takes 5 seconds, there is no way volatility can effect it.

here is a REAL &  live transaction between ATB Financial Canada and ReiseBank Germany to debunk your Fake and unfounded volatility argument :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAnHzDEP8GM  

and here is confirmation of the same from David Blair, famous treasury consultant for over 30 years that many governments depend upon

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ripple-vs-swift-payment-revolution-david-blair

and here is how Volatility doesn't matter ( exactly how settlement of funds occur ) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e2jDFL1kKI&t=88s

and besides, with Central banks, institutions and large corporate + Normal people like you and me holding XRP will give it perhaps best stability ( not all trading monkey hands ) So your volatility argument doesn't stand either.

lets see if your Moral Compass has anything called as Humility, Confession or Correcting-oneself. Without those its not very Moral is it. speak about moral compass !

Even I am going to end my arguments like the other person as there is nothing left.



what a shame, innovation is being blemished with mis-information and propaganda by those who were all about innovation when bitcoin started ! ( this is not directed at you, but on the general campaign that is happening here spreading all sorts of lies )

No need to try to convince him, he doesn't want to be convinced, so he's going to reply, and you, and then he, this discussion is going nowhere. People have to form their own opinion.

Isn't the very fact that they cooperate with banks and aim to serve the current financial system proof enough that they aren't really decentralised?

there are many ways to achieve de-centralization. One way is "working with" the system.

History is proof, from pirates of Caribbean to mafia of USSR - anyone who tried to completely obfuscate from the system has always failed, because at the end of the day it is in the main-stream - they have to operate to create real-life value.

So you make an interesting point. RCL is decentralized - you can have a wallet and have money in it, and don't need to disclose whats your address to anybody. No government can stop you, neither ripple can.

But i am on Ripple's side with this one, on "working with the system" to Reform the system - instead of trying to live in a virtual world and pretend real-life doesn't exist ( and still get stuck every time one has to convert to fiat or come under regulations from government).

This is the same realization Mr Vitalik went through, and the Same realization Mr Chris Larsen went through. We cannot reform the system by running far away form it and building a wall on all sides.

and lastly are we not seeing, how bitcoin is loosing anonymity as it is coming more and more under regulation ? Japan is even now collecting the bitcoin service providers and one will have to declare crypto assets. Soon bitcoin wallets of a certain value will be tagged to a person, if one has a secret wallet, it will be hard to send or receive anything... ( as more and more providers force KYC and regulation )

just one real example... my 2 cents...

Ripple did it right from the very beginning and now are on verge of breakthrough... if they get banks to accept RCL, then the anonymity on RCL will also for the first time accepted by the system. Not that it will not be regulation if one wants to operate- but that is one's personal choice and freedom, but it will be allowed to stay as a standard feature which is a big deal.

in other words, all i am saying is, "they are realistic". they have worked hard since day one to do things the right way - regulated answerable liable company, licensed to operate - cannot cheat and run away overnight...  etc.. and now it is clearly paying off.

Those reports of the sales of XRP to the allegedly institutional buyers are not clear. The more important details like who bought them, the price for each XRP and how many XRP were sold are not included. But I am sure those buyers bought them below the market price and they are free to dump some on the uninformed at Poloniex.

Those reports still do not give a straight answer what arrangement the banks have with Ripple.

No wonder there was a significant pump on poloniex, it was increased by 50% in one day, the good news is real, and promote the blockchain technology.

Well i am sure they have Client privacy agreements to honor. Especially unlike other altcoins , they work with the largest, most trusted institutions that actually impact "everyday" life.

But, I do agree, this extensive details on terms-of-sale is missing, but hardly matters to me. If dumping is what i had to be worried about, i woudl worry about the thousand coins that are unregistered, has no liable company backing them, no answerable entity nor a functional license.

Given that Ripple is licensed, regulated, responsible and liable company that can be held accountable under court of law, I am perfectly good trusting them devoid the fine terms-agreement with their client. I speaking for myself, understand the need for regulation, and this far more transparency then the many operators working without respective licenses or regulation clearances.

simply put the Day govt says  "all unregulated and unlicensed cryptos are illegal" most of those coins are gone - their respective devels will vanish into onion web in a single night. I suggest that we be more concerned about them rather.  

On the other hand, with XRP, I don't have to worry about anything, while most of the alt coins out there are over. Add to that the supply regulation and locking is coming with their introduced escrow future. Great future for IOV, the onus of research and learning is on the investor. More than this is going to be spoon feeding, so i am going to stop. I am sure google had everything u need.

@Note: As for others, reading through this forum should have made case perfectly clear... I am sure i don't need to say anything more.

good luck to all. I am very pleased with Ripple and all the great progress they have made. and perhaps feel the safest investing in them compared to others. As far as real life use case, how many are even anywhere close to xrp anyways ?

BTC is store of value, ETH is contractual code, XRP is transaction and settlement. Educated community is pretty clear on usecase.

Best, f0rmdeep

Are you sure they are supposed to be trusted? Those same institutions that oppress the people and fund wars for profit? Those same institutions that caused the housing bubble? They are scammers of another scale.


Then the community is not getting a good deal when they buy XRP in an exchange. They are again being scammed by the same institutions that are supposed to take care of us.


The same as the banks of the housing bubble. But what did USA do? Their government bailed them out.


Do not act like XRP is superior. They too are traded in the same cryptoexchanges together with scams. Why not tell Ripple to take them out of all the exchanges and let the banks buy and sell XRP with each other.

Be careful with RIPPLE. They own 2 times more XRP than it is in circulation today. Today, there's 37,884,902,021 in circulation. Total amount of XRP is 99,994,983,179, so over 60.000.000.000 XRP is owned by RIPPLE. If you take that into consideration, XRP is valued at 5.4 billion usd.

Proof http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/views/market-cap-by-total-supply/

Do the banks that have bought XRP straight from Ripple at whole sale prices also run their nodes? An organizatin that is independent from Ripple should start running nodes to test the protocol. I speculate only Ripple is running all the nodes to verify all the transactions. That is the same as a centralized set up.

Banks don't buy XRP. They have no reason to, google for ripple xrp and see on their website. Ripple is a private company and it is centralized, i don't think anyone else will run anything besides ripple.

Held by the foundation. They have a vested interest in market saturation. This will fund their company into the future.

Yes, but the investor in this case is the only side at a huge disadvantage. It's like buying GNO knowing the dev team own most tokens. Extremely risky. Everyone has all teh up sides and no downsides, except for the investor who has more downside than upside. Ripple has volume so they can continuously dilute investor's holdings value for many years. And they will.

I think Spoetnik is wrong on this.

First of all Ripple is a company with mostly corporate investors and they never had any ICO open to the public. So I wouldn't call it and "ICO scam coin".
Banks are definitely interested in the blockchain technology and constantly looking for new ways to simplify internal procedures and decrease costs. Ripple is an already working low cost network with professional developers and a visible company (=accountable) in the background. I'm pretty sure banks would prefer it over basement dwelling developer communities or Russian jack-of-all-trades geniuses :).

As I said a couple of times Ripple Labs already has it's investors. They don't really need us. So we can not be investors in regards of XRP but only speculators. Of course they diluting holdings, as they don't want holdings and hoarders on their network. They want to keep the network cheap with a constantly available cheap supply of XRP for their users.
So if the price goes too high or the coin getting to scarce (because of we piling it up on Polo for the next pump), they can inject more coins from their own holdings into the market and stabilize the price and supply on an easily affordable level (and foiling our plans).

Yes, which means there is no real purpose for speculators to invest into XRP. Because most likely the investors/speculators will lose money.

Ripple is in a position where they can and will milk money from speculators, and only a tiny portion of speculators will make money assuming they exit in time. Ripple in curent situation is like a POW project with 100% annual inflation. No reason to enter in the first place. Because demand doesn't increase with supply, unless the supplied good is getting much cheaper.

If you sell hamburgers for 2$ each, assuming customers don't have to wait in line, then it means you'll sell the same amount even if you place 10 shops near eachother. Then only way to sell more is if you dilute the price of each hamburger from 2$ to 1$. The same with XRP, they will have to badly dilute the curent value of the tokens to get more speculators, assuming they will think of it as "cheap/cheaper".

mining1 is on a mission against Ripple.

The supply of BTC has increased a lot more compared to XRP https://www.xrpchat.com/uploads/monthly_2016_09/57ee3f31541f5_BTCvsXRPDistribution.thumb.png.aeee0d12dd4e8818f82347041699e94c.png

Ripple holds a lot of XRP, and Ripple said numerous time they benefit significantly if there's price appreciation.

Your link is about distribution. Doesn't have anything to do with what i just said. BTC has 21mil token limit and in curent circulation there's 16mil.

There's  37billion XRP in circulation and 62 more billions XRP held by ripple. That's twice more than the amount in circulation. Ofcourse they benefit from a higher price. And that's my point. They are the only ones who benefit from it. Investors are there for their milking machine.

Bitcoin started in January 2009.
I don't have time to make a detailed answer now, but I think you're wrong.

BTC distribution will never be matched because it was before the get rich quick mentality kicked in. BUT let's face it, the real goal of a decentralized asset to be utilized isn't in the initial distribution but how it confirms transactions. Mining was freakin awesome until Chinese mining pools started dominating the network, now we have smart contracts/escrow that can control a distribution in a similar manner without the politics/power consumption. Rather than Chinese mining farms confirming transactions Ripple uses validators ran by Microsoft, MIT, CGI, possibly Amazon, etc to accomplish the same thing. While mining btc becomes more centralized, Ripple is actually becoming more decentralized with every validator added. As far as distribution is concerned, Ripple is working on using something like escrow to lock up xrp and distribute in more transparent manner. I wouldn't worry too much about total supply vs available supply this early in the game. Ripple is actually deflationary in a way because xrp is destroyed with transaction fees, I would be more worried about inflation with some of these coins more than current available supply. When it comes to utilization Ripple is definitely one of the very best with validators, tx/sec, governance. When it comes to initial distribution, bitcoin is pretty damn hard to match considering it defined the value of this market so is impossible to do the same thing again with the knowledge we have now.

You're trying to divert this conversation somewhere else.
That being said, here we talk about 70% of the total supply held locked by Ripple to starve the market and artificially increase the price.

In case you don't understand ( but i am sure you do ) take Gnosis's example. Only 5% of the total supply is released on the market, for people to do what they desire with it; as a consequence, it's market cap, with 95% of tokens held by devs locked, it's at 85mil USD, because the market is starved and there are too few tokens to trade around. That means the real market cap is over 1.5 billion USD. As a comparison, Augur, who basically is a rival of gnosis, has a market cap of 180mil USD. But they don't have most of their tokens locked away to starve the market.

This is what's happening with ripple. People don't understand/research and they do not know that devs own most of the funds, and from time to time, they release them on market and dilute the value on the market, because ripple can't possibly hold a 5.5 billion market cap value with all the tokens released to the market, like most fair projects do.

If you still don't get it, look at Malcoin's coin, 18.8 billion usd market cap, almost as much as bitcoin. Because there are only few tokens to trade around and the total supply is 1 billion tokens. It doesn't have any volume, but it's still 18.8 billion market cap, because the devs hold the funds locked. This is what ripple does.

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/views/market-cap-by-total-supply/

what a desperate fellow, all one has to see is his desperateness - they will right away discard the disinformation. For your kind information

Ripple is Deflationary - no new coins can ever be mined, and the supply will only be decreasing. How about that ?

add to that, RIpple ( a solid legal backed and licensed company - NOT a hunky dory shady character on onion web ) will be using their own "on-platform-escrow-feature" to Lockup most of the XRP for many years - news coming soon

ROFL .. if nothing your stomach burn will cause u ulcer ... take care fella !

as for ripple investors ... they sleep the best and they earn the best. i really can't give u a single dime and never they will wake up to see the dev's have run away with all their money NOR they will have to go through a community fight for segwit...

Speak for yourself and to yourself. -

tell you what, being Civil - the only response i have for you is - I wont be wasting on you , any more of precious time, as it is now pure bigotry and not worth a single dime.. Oh see that line is even a rhyme ! LOL