Bitcoin Forum

I don't get how will they be able to collect taxes on bitcoin
unless users report the income made in bitcoins by themselves.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/04/26/business-bitcoin-tax.html

I don't see how as well. This will be a interesting story to follow......

Between individuals as well as bartering has been followed...

If you involve companies and banks it get's lot more traceable. I think there is the aim.

When you are doing it with bussiness, they have much harder time to hide things...

So how do we cash out now? If need be obviously.

This is totally un-documentable BS, since nobody knows what you are doing on Kijiji or whatever with your friends and Bitcoins.

In fact being stupid or greedy enough to need to be reporting it as "investment income" or  "investment losses" should be the crime.

In the USA the "Over the Counter, funded Credit Default Swap" derivatives (OTC fCDS) are totally tax free "deregulated" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000) mediums of swap-transaction. (eg: a marginal cost, basically zero-sum instrument)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000

A "funded" CDS (Credit Swap) is simply an instrument where you fund someone else's "default loss" to be compensated for that by the next owners funding of your "default loss".  It's just a rubber cheque that people can all play "bounce" with, and fortunately for us all, it is also the intrinsic nature of a BTCitcoin.

If it's value changed while it was in the air, who's to say if you lost or gained or what else was involved at the time when you swapped them in or out and back in from elsewhere?

Who could determine your costs for one you've sold or still have, or it's "new" value if you haven't sold it yet?

Who can prove you didn't barter your granny's sewing machine for more of them?

Can an exchange know you weren't cashing in or buying them for somebody else?


use your wallets and transfers at all those exchanges you can, often, problem solved...

If gains are taxed, how about losses?  I have a feeling a lot of people can suddenly prove losses if they are tax deductible.

From http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html (http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html)

Yes that whole taxing bitcoin thing is BS, and it is going to be difficult for them to catch it but I mean if for example I have a steady income of 500$ per week and in 2-3 years when bitcoins are worth more, I cash out some of it to partially pay a car let's say. Wouldn't the CRA be like hummm that's weird he just got 20k deposited and it's signed CaVirtex... Wouldn't they come after me?

I imagine that would result in a quick audit if you didn't report that as income.  Hints why companies that accept bitcoin or will buy something for you (bitspend) are becoming a lot more popular now that there's a lot of people that have suddenly made a good amount of money with bitcoin but would prefer to avoid paying taxes on it.

Open Lybit and MtGox CAD accounts and use your wallet too. Nobody could tell you weren't also trading baseball cards or selling homemade jam, and where when how or how much BTC went or came from there or here or when or anything else for you or anyone else you deal with, that has to do with your BTC.

They would need to be doing an audit already to find such a bank statement.

Who's to say you didn't send emt@libertybit money to get a snowblower (that broke) or receive money from acitelecom for your old boat or camping equipment (you lost money on)? Or when those transactions occurred in relation to some "exchange value of a BTCitcoin" that maybe you didn't even get or give that day?

Of course if you are foolish enough to attempt SINGLE $20,000 transactions (over/close to $9999.00) you are going to draw yourself a big "drug money launderer" red flag right out on the track....

So best bet is still to buy with BTC, that's what I actually want to do as it is the goal of a currency. However if I do want to buy a car, I don't think 3 years from now they will accept bitcoins at the local car dealer haha. We'll see.

HOW CAN THEY CHECK OR VERIFY HOW MUCH YOU'VE GAINED UNLESS IT'S IN YOUR BANK ACCOUNT?

They can't. And they probably don't care.

Though I think they might ask a few questions if you get a new car from somewhere...

It would be a hopelessly byzantine nightmare for them to uncover maybe a few bucks in missing taxable income on to tax for their Tory-Bilderberg Trotskyite Menshevik permanent war communist masters.  It'd cost CRS more money in wages to sort out than it could ever allow them to steal to finance their criminal waging of unending permanent war-communism upon non-Saudi Muslims all over the planet with.

They'll do much better to just spend those funds at their Tory Ministry of Permanent War Communism training their marauding war-communist troops on teaching better opium growing and learning better opium smuggling techniques.

I am a Canadian Citizen, and I say that this is Compleate and utter Bullshit.
Taxing a digital good? Come Tax my fucking videogame items while your trying at it, if i "suddenly" get 10k into my bank account, ITS NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS WHERE I GOT THAT MONEY FROM, and if you Fucking Ask Where It Came From, im switching banks
Fuck You Revenue Canada
Bitcoins are already SELF TAXED by the people who use bitcoins and the system itself!

I should point out that a very simple solution to this is to maintain several accounts in local banks in different nations and use various exchanges who deal in that fiat.

Alternately, you could simply choose to pay your income tax according to local law anytime you need to cash out bitcoin. I don't believe there is any law that would allow revenue canada to tax earnings 'in another country' (please point me at the code if I'm misinformed) that never enter canada... and in that case whats the prevent you from buying good or services using euro and having them delivered to canada... maybe some customs fees, import duties etc... but probably that would already be added into your cost of purchase.

That just gives us more fees, and more hassles, im pretty friggin sure the majority of people on this forum only have a local bank account, and do not know the basics of setting up an international bank account

I wonder if they can force cavirtex.com to open their books and track everyone that way. Everyone that used cavirtex.com that is.

What if CRA got smart and started to troll the block chain and applied a little network analysis to it? Forensic accountants are accustomed to ferreting out tax cheats and are used to their schemes of sending money from one place to the next.

They probably could.

Not only that but they could force the issue by requiring cavirtex to charge GST on the service fee. Just like currency swap places at the air port do.

he he he.

Free range slaves; they like to think they are free. We let them speak all they want, but when it comes time to pay up, the GoC has ways to enforce compliance.

I wish they would tax only considerable amounts of profits made from bitcoins such as any amount above $10000. They tax everything and everybody there is no way they will ignore bitcoiners. Better to pay now than have all the hassle and legal problems later on.
Maybe someone with legal know how can find some loop hole so we can avoid paying.

All the steel and concrete in the cores of tall skyscrapers would all be "melting" at once from wayward flying-pork barbecue accidents.

If you want to sell BTC and dump serious amounts of fiat into your Canadian bank account, I don't think there is any loophole. You gotta pay the tax if it's due.

If you don't convert BTC to fiat, or you do it only OTC... your tax liability might be a bit lower. ;D But not zero if legitimate businesses where you spend your BTC pass on GST costs to you. It's difficult to avoid all taxes!

What does OTC mean? So basically they can tax you only if you convert bitcoins to fiat currency.

Over The Counter, as in in person face to face.


Income or capital-gains tax, yes. But legit businesses accepting payments in BTC normally do their accounting in fiat and pay their GST or whatever as before. Sure, you could do private business "under the table" tax free (illegal for businesses required to register for GST) with bitcoin, but this is done thousandsfold more often with ca$h already, so bitcoin really isn't a tax-evasion mechanism per se. It does offer one big advantage of portability, though. You don't have to declare bitcoin to customs (and with the brainwallet option, it would be unenforceable even if you did!), something that makes it a better "hidden" store of value than even overseas numbered investment accounts.

Disclaimer: IANAL and there is no hint of formal tax or legal advice anywhere in this post.

FYI, in the US, the IRS rules are more or less the same. I asked my tax guy (surprisingly, I wasn't the first), and he said the IRS would definitely enforce taxes on fiat gains from buying and selling BTC. Additionally, trading BTC for goods (no fiat in the mix), would be treated as a barter exchange, and any gains on the fiat value of the goods would be considered taxable. For example, if someone buys 10 BTC at $5 apiece ($50 total), then gives those BTC to an online retailer in exchange for a computer that normally sells for $1000, the person who bought/sold BTC would have a taxable gain of $950.

For obvious reasons, almost no one reports gains from bartering. However, if the IRS became aware of the transaction and wanted to spend the resources to audit and prosecute, they would most likely be successful. It doesn't matter whether you agree that it's right/wrong, or even the proper interpretation of the law (the IRS rules are not always consistent with the law). Looking at other similar situations, the IRS would win in the courtroom, which is really the only thing that matters.

I don't know what the problem is.

I always pay every tax that I owe promptly and without complaint.

To say anything else would give the IRS probable cause to investigate me, right?

LoL - exactly the reason to use offshore financial institutions to handle some portion of your btc <> fiat transactions. Anyone know the legallity of income earned outside of the US? My understanding of this issue says that unless you're transporting fiat into the country it wouldn't fall under income tax - but that good transported in may require you to pay tariffs on them.

Seems like a good news for black market and illegal stuff.

A guy get 50000$ from a drug deal, he just have to claim bitcoin transfer, he pay tax and everything is legal.

I really don't know how is this going to work ...

That right there, Is fucking hillarious you could turn your dirty money clean by running it through the bank, LAWL

They'd most likely only be able to tax businesses bitcoins.

Seriously, what is so hard about paying taxes. Just do it!

If you want to pay less taxes, you need to elect politicians who care more about the people and the future of the country that their reelection. And also, cut in services.

Why would you expect anything else?

It won't be long before property tax assessors are auditing your mmo.

hello. please send all your taxes to this bitcoin address: 1NZjvHEmkHSUtStozJGvoRiGQG175SZMYk

see? that's not so hard, now is it?

And what if I am due a refund? Will you pay me in bitcoin? :P

nope, paying out in deflating fiat currency. cause that's how i roll