Bitcoin Forum

In several bitcoin exchanges (bitstamp, mtgox, probably some others too) in order to become verified, you have to upload a scan of two documents. The first one is "proof of identification" - any government issued id with a photo and a person's name qualifies for this, so no problem here - 99,9% of people have at least some form of ID. The second one however, is a ridiculous thing called "proof of address" - "a utility, phone, or internet bill, issued in your name in the last 3 months and containing your address; or official letter which you received to your name and address, no older than 3 months, sent by a registered company or government agency".

Here is the problem:
1. Our family pays all taxes online, we literally haven't had any paper bill for more than 5 years.
2. The apartment where I live, belongs to my mother, and she is the registered owner of the apartment, so any bills are in her name, not mine.

It is not just me, I did a quick survey, and 80-90% of people around me would be unable to produce such a document for themselves. Maybe it is because I am surrounded by technically-savvy people, but most people dealing with bitcoin are technically savvy. Most technically-savvy persons I know, opted out of receiving paper bills when it became possible, if only for the reason that in my country you have to PAY to receive a paper bill, and online bills are free. The only other document I could think of, that would qualify as "official letter which you received to your name and address<...>sent by a registered company or government agency", would be a letter the police sends you if you fail to appear in court for your trial.
Even if you decided to opt-back-in to receiving paper bills (if only to receive this "proof of address"), what if you are living with your wife/husband/parents, and the apartment is registered to them? Then all the bills would be in their name, not yours.

I am not sure WHY these exchanges are implementing such silly "security measures". It is some law they must obey? It obviously has nothing to do with "security", because anyone with rookie MS word skills could forge such a "document" in 5 minutes (a utility bill features no stamp or signature). I was tempted to do it, but in the end decided to just use a different exchange.

Try googling KYC and AML, they may help.

You do not need to be apartment owner to receive utility bills on your name. Be the man, free your mother from paying for you.

Surely its not a universal thing, nor an obligatory law everywhere, as most banks in eastern Europe, and many in western Europe too, do not require such a thing to open a bank account, you just tell them the address you want them to send statements to, and that's it.

Its mostly banks in UK which rigorously require such a thing as "proof of address" by a "utility bill".

If it was a AML requirement, then banks would be the first to require this, and many, if not most, don't.

Anyway anyone with two brain cells will figure out in 5 seconds that for AML purpose this is pointless, as anyone who would be up to launder some dirty money will get an "utility bill" without problems, it'll just cost him some money, maybe to rent a unneeded flat and sign up for electricity for one month, and then cancel - but for money launderers wasting a bit of money is not a problem. But it is a problem for a lot of normal people, who do not rent a place with utility bills in their name, and have to waste their time and money to get such a useless "pesudo-document".

Does not look universal after all..

You are wrong - in my country the utility bills are in the apartment owner's name. My mother does not pay for me, I pay all the bills, but they are still in her name. For them to be in my name, my mother would need to officially transfer the ownership of the apartment to me.

Imagine an example of three brothers living in the same apartment, and they all want to register to a bitcoin exchange. Even if in some countries you can change the person to whom utility bills are addressed, (without changing the ownership of the apartment), I still doubt you can do it more than once a month. So the first brother would have to register, then change the utility bill receiver to the second brother, wait a month to receive a new bill, and then repeat the procedure for the third brother? All that, to produce what is really a "pseudo-document" (like someone accurately noticed)?

Even PayPal (which is notorious for locking people's accounts and then requesting to provide a bunch of documents to unlock it) never enforce the "proof-of-address" requirement. It is enough to call them and tell them that you have no way of providing one.

Also, what if you are homeless?

Also, what if you are a gypsy, or belong to any other "traveler" ethnic group? In many countries such ethnic groups have law exemptions, which exempt them from having to officially register a place of residence. Based on that, this requirement is potentially racist.

+1

Interesting... For research purposes can you provide me a few names of countries with such "traveler ethnic group law exemptions"?

a POA is to prove that you live somewhere - and the 3 month time constraint is to prove you lived there recently.

In the UK, a Gypsy would have documentation addressed to their current site, such as council tax documentation so they would be able to provide a POA.

Mobile phone bills are available in paper form, even if you do have to pay for them, and would be suitable for most organisations.

Alternatively, a driving licence would also work.


Of course, if you are looking to buy bitcoins, you don't need to use any of the original services mentioned - just visit localbitcoins and pay with cash.

Problem solved!

United Kingdom - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHc5J-x4EnM

Of course, the law may not say "gypsies don't have to register a place of residence", but the law has exemptions for "traveler ethnic groups", which creates conditions where gypsies (and other similar groups) are put into legal gray area. You should watch the video above, and research more on the internet - I am really not an expert on this - but from my understanding (I may be completely wrong) you can declare that you will not be settling, and will be on constant travel, therefore you will not have any permanent or temporary residence.

If you are on constant travel, you don't need state electricity, water or transportation systems, therefore you don't use them, therefore you can't be taxed for what you don't use, therefore you don't have any taxes at all (?) (again, I may be completely wrong on this). And even if you have some taxes, you still don't have a residence address.

When I registered on Gox a few weeks ago I submitted only my government ID and nothing for proof of address.  After waiting the 2 weeks or so for them to verify everything went through fine with no issue.  Not sure if a glitch/bug or oversight but I only had to provide proof of ID.

New

Exactly same happened to me, and kudos to Gox for that.

Bitstamp, however, repeatedly and explicitly denied verification without "proof of address" and told me that "if I can not provide such a document, then I can not become verified" (I could paste all correspondence with bitstamp here, if anyone is interested).

I am not bringing this problem up just to make a fuss and/or problems for exchanges. I only wanted to receive "verified" status - I am from EU member country, I uploaded scan of both sides of my government issued ID, I sent a SEPA transfer to them from a bank account registered in my name, but apparently all that was not enough to convince them that I was "real". But a scan of a "pseudo-document" which contains no signatures or stamps and which could be forged by anyone owning a printer, would convince them?? (by "them", I mean bitstamp.net)

This is weird. When people rent apartments does utility bill still come on owners name? What country is this?

By the way, I guess that if MtGox follows US rules, phone bill or bank bill should work as a proof of residency. I would check with them.

"When people rent apartments does utility bill still come on owners name?"

Yes. The owner of the apartment is responsible for the apartment, and of course responsible for paying taxes for that apartment. The tenant pays the owner, and the owner pays the state any taxes.

I would argue that this is a fairly reasonable law - otherwise, there is a huge opportunity to avoid taxes. If anyone can become responsible for the payment of apartment's utility bills, what stops someone from hiring a bum to agree to become "responsible" and stop paying the bills? Then all the legal action would be on the bum's head. In my country, it is always on the owner's head.

"What country is this?"

Lithuania.

Interesting. In US utility companies do not care if you are owner or tenant. You live in a house, you pay your bills. You stop paying, they switch utilities off. Owner still pays mortgage, taxes and insurance.

Anyway, since MtGox is a US based company, any piece of official mail with your name on it (like cell phone bill, bank bill, traffic violation notice from police, etc) or government issued id with your address on it should work for them.

Except MtGox isn't a US based company. And except those pieces of mail you mentioned don't work for them as proof of residence.

They are partially US, partially Japanese.


Did they tell you what exactly they consider as proof of residence? It sounds silly to me to accept utility bills and not accept bank or government mail as a proof.

So if you rent your apartment to someone, the tenant does not pay any taxes, the utility companies turn the utilities off, then you announce that you are living in the apartment yourself again, they will turn the utilities back on? You won't have to pay for the debt that your tenant incurred? After all, if it is in his name, how could they force his debt on you, even if you are the owner of the apartment?


I thought MtGox is a Japan based company? Anyway, I have not had any official letter since.....well, frankly I can't remember ANY such letter AT ALL. Our government issued ID's do not include residence address. Any utility bills I pay online, directly through online banking. I have done this for more than 5 years now. I have never used a subscription based mobile service in my life (and most of the people around me never did), but even if I did, I would choose to have the bills integrated into my online banking too. Can I get a traffic violation if I don't have a driver's license? :) It looks to be the only possible way left...

Maybe it is very different in different countries, maybe in the US people get a lot of "official letters", but in Lithuania, if you got one, it would probably mean you have done something really wrong, and now are in a lot of trouble. I noticed how you wrote "Owner still pays mortgage, taxes and insurance.". From this I assume that in US many/most people have their apartment on mortgage loan, and have insured their apartments? In Lithuania, almost no one has a mortgage loan, and even less people have insurance. Just the differences of culture/mentality I guess.

In US everybody pays for what he uses. Owner owns property, he pays property tax. Tenant uses utilities, he pays utility bills. When tenant moves in, he pays security deposit to owner. This usually covers damage or debt he leaves after moving out. If not, they will sue him.



Yes, they are registered in Japan. But they have a lot of business in US.


"A lot" is not a right word. It is just a fucking lot  :o

You mentioned that you pay your bills online. If you receive an online bank statement, why not print it out and see if it is sufficient to get you verified on an exchange? Hopefully it will show you're address on it.

Although FATF countries are required to implement the FATF recommendations (AML, KYC, CTF), it's an over-arching framework and individual nations decide on how they're going to implement them.  Most countries specify the minimum KYC information required to open an account (it used to be 100 points of ID in Australia, which meant multiple sources of ID from different classes), but the verification requirements change according to how the account is actually used once opened.  Any transactions which trigger enhanced due diligence requirements (and the bar is set low for this) will trigger increased verification requirements.

Even when it's not technically required, some institutions require full verification at the outset because it's a lot less inconvenient for customers than suddenly asking them to provide enhanced KYC information when the system flags activity on their account as "high risk".  Others work on the basis that the administrative burden of taking this approach is too great and that the majority of customers will never have high risk transactions so they request verification information on an "as needed" basis (which does inconvenience customers).

Verification often requires a combination of old and new documents (many places don't accept utility bills which are more than three months old but won't accept a birth certificate which has only just been acquired).  Forms of ID which themselves require you to prove your identity are often heavily favoured as are types of ID where there's a legal requirement to keep your address up to date (drivers licences in many countries).

Does all of this mean that some people won't be able to meet the verification requirements of overseas financial services?  Sure it does, but they're first and foremost obliged to comply with their local regulations.  They're not obliged to accept you as a customer and bending the rules to do so threatens their own interests as well as the interests of other customers.

Hell, sometimes companies decide to exclude a customer group just because including them would be a total pain in the ass.  This is happening with foreign financial service providers and US customers right now because foreign companies don't want to have to deal with implementing FACTA requirements (which would require them to report the financial activity of US customers to the IRS).

Exchanges are on the razor's edge already when it comes to staying in business and avoiding having their bank accounts frozen.  They don't impose these requirements just for fun.

Yes, but as I mentioned before, they are in my mother's name, not mine. You must have not read my first post. That IS the problem - to have them appear in my name, my mother would have to transfer the ownership of the apartment to me.

In the US the decision of who pays for which utilities is agreed upon by the tenant and landlord and spelled out in the lease agreement.

In most cases the decision is based on how the unit is metered. If each unit has a separate meter then usually the tenant pays the bill. If there is one meter for multiple units then the owner pays the bill.

Regardless of the meter, in some cases the owner may choose to pay the bill and re-bill the tenant. In some jurisdictions, the utility provider may be able to impose a lien on a property if the bill goes unpaid. This is very common for water / sewage service. The issue is if the tenant doesn't pay the bill, then the utility then places a lien on the property. Some jurisdictions have strict rent control laws and so the tenant could go for years without paying the bill and the lien could be quite large.