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Title: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: skorupi17 on May 21, 2017, 05:24:19 PM Waiting for the confirmation of every transaction has been a headache to us bitcoin users. And in order to avoid a long wait, higher fee is required which adds to our headache, well who would want to pay more just to gain priority, right? We just gain priority in paying more but we lose Bitcoin on the other hand. I have suggestion in mind that I really don't know if it is applicable or not. Suggestions are always welcome, right?
1. Why not make the transaction fee be fixed? Regardless of the size of transaction in byte. So if the transaction fee is equal to all transaction, some greedy miners would follow a First In, First Out. No priority. All equal. OR 2. A fixed transaction fee which is proportional to the size in bytes. Example 100 Satoshi/Byte no more, no less. The fee will be fixed and no one can add fee to gain priority. Seems fair. So what do you think? Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: virtualdn on May 21, 2017, 05:26:42 PM I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon.
Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: Bit_Happy on May 21, 2017, 05:32:13 PM I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon. Bitcoin is quickly turning into a Tulip Bulb Mania / Brilliantly Crafted Ponzi. :P Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: skorupi17 on May 21, 2017, 05:33:08 PM I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon. Well that is because of the continuous rise in bitcoin's price. I will give you that. However, Bitcoin has a smaller unit, which is the Satoshi, which lower class can afford. I do not think that bitcoin will be exclusive for higher/rich class only in the near future, middle class should never be out of the picture here. Well I personally do not know why are we talking about social class here since we are talking about transaction fees being fixed. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: virtualdn on May 21, 2017, 05:34:05 PM I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon. Well that is because of the continuous rise in bitcoin's price. I will give you that. However, Bitcoin has a smaller unit, which is the Satoshi, which lower class can afford. I do not think that bitcoin will be exclusive for higher/rich class only in the near future, middle class should never be out of the picture here. Well I personally do not know why are we talking about social class here since we are talking about transaction fees being fixed. Yeah it has a small unit but the fees are outrageous. Who would pay $6-$8 for a smaller transaction to get confirmed? Buy a coffee with BTC if you can anymore Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: Nagadota on May 21, 2017, 05:35:47 PM Both of those options are impossible.
Transaction fees don't exist solely to pay miners for their work - if there were no transaction fees at all, they would still receive far more than enough as a block reward to keep the network secure. Originally, transaction fees were just a tiny extra donation to help get your transaction confirmed sooner than other people and not everyone would pay transaction fees. That's no longer the reason for transaction fees. The reason for the amount of fees now is that there are too many transactions now for them to fit in the blocks which are limited to one megabyte, so demand exceeds capacity and people have to "compete", so to speak, to get their transactions into a block. The solutions are either to increase the block size or alter the protocol in other ways (like SegWit and/or LN) which increase the capacity and implement scaling. So basically there needs to be a priority group as there are too many transactions being sent, and a fixed fee isn't possible. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: LLec on May 21, 2017, 05:36:07 PM I agree with this.
Have it fixed because even my wallets I send from are confused now. Not knowing how much to put on the transaction to be capable to send it. I tried one this morning and it applied 0.0002btc on a 0.016btc send. It would never confirm at 50sat/bytes if I didn't accelerate the transaction right after I sent it. ::) This is just getting ridiculous now. :-\ The banks now have allowed their account holders when you sign up with them UNLIMITED transactions without having any frees applied to their accounts (use to be $1.50-$2.50 per transaction, atleast at my bank! :-[ ) But now they give new customers who sign up with their accounts held with them no-fees charged on all transactions and not just to a limited amount of 10 or 12 of them allowed per month before they start charing them per transaction so not to flood their system. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: amacar2 on May 21, 2017, 05:40:35 PM 2. A fixed transaction fee which is proportional to the size in bytes. Example 100 Satoshi/Byte no more, no less. The fee will be fixed and no one can add fee to gain priority. Seems fair. Block reward will keep on decreasing while number of miners will keep on rising, so miners will not earn any profit if fees are fixed and those miners will not find mining bitcoin profitable which will weaken the bitcoin network. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: ImHash on May 21, 2017, 05:42:23 PM 3 letters LTC, bitcoin miners are mining it since 2011 and now grew tired to stare at their coins so they have decided to put bitcoin improvement on hold until they can sell all of their LTCs, the reason why it's still so cheap is because some of the miners are greedy and dumping their stashes and when run out of coins you'll see the price to jump like crazy.
Another reason: a minority group of old timers revolted against the leading majority and due to the consensus design of bitcoin only if a version can successfully mine 750 blocks out of last 1000 blocks the rules will change in favor of said version. you could check "coin.dance" for more detailed information. Or you could become a miner yourself and start earning the said high fees and ignore the community which that is the whole reasons for an open source and decentralized software. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: TryNinja on May 21, 2017, 05:42:57 PM Both of those options are impossible. I understood the concept. But if it worked that way, how would the miners be paid to continue mining after the production of new Bitcoins ended if there is no need to pay any fees?Transaction fees don't exist solely to pay miners for their work - if there were no transaction fees at all, they would still receive far more than enough as a block reward to keep the network secure. Originally, transaction fees were just a tiny extra donation to help get your transaction confirmed sooner than other people and not everyone would pay transaction fees. That's no longer the reason for transaction fees. The reason for the amount of fees now is that there are too many transactions now for them to fit in the blocks which are limited to one megabyte, so demand exceeds capacity and people have to "compete", so to speak, to get their transactions into a block. The solutions are either to increase the block size or alter the protocol in other ways (like SegWit and/or LN) which increase the capacity and implement scaling. So basically there needs to be a priority group as there are too many transactions being sent, and a fixed fee isn't possible. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: Searing on May 21, 2017, 05:46:26 PM Waiting for the confirmation of every transaction has been a headache to us bitcoin users. And in order to avoid a long wait, higher fee is required which adds to our headache, well who would want to pay more just to gain priority, right? We just gain priority in paying more but we lose Bitcoin on the other hand. I have suggestion in mind that I really don't know if it is applicable or not. Suggestions are always welcome, right? 1. Why not make the transaction fee be fixed? Regardless of the size of transaction in byte. So if the transaction fee is equal to all transaction, some greedy miners would follow a First In, First Out. No priority. All equal. OR 2. A fixed transaction fee which is proportional to the size in bytes. Example 100 Satoshi/Byte no more, no less. The fee will be fixed and no one can add fee to gain priority. Seems fair. So what do you think? IMHO ....why fix the transaction fee and block size etc....well ....it artificially keeps the price of btc low...with consensus we'd be looking at 4k btc imho so the more FUD you have the more you can keep the price down...if you are a whale or big player..thus more coin accumulation only way consensus will be reached imho is if btc dumps back to say 1,000 usd and the other crypto's surge....until that happens ..no incentive by those stirring all this up to not continue to do the same FUD I'm likely wrong...feel free to point my errors out on this...but comparing it to other markets where big players can keep price low and accumulate..it sure smells the same imho :( Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: Snorek on May 21, 2017, 05:47:20 PM I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon. No unless we will have scaling upgrade, it should be in near future, within next 3 months. Unfortunately until this happen there is no solution for long confrontation times ad ridiculous fees, you can try to use tx accelerators, but is is nonviable solution in the long run. Bitcoin is quickly turning into a Tulip Bulb Mania / Brilliantly Crafted Ponzi. :P And why suddenly high transaction fees will make bitcoin a ponzi? It is only temporary hiccup which will be fixed, hopefully soon.Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: bitcoinstress on May 21, 2017, 05:51:03 PM I think the transaction fee is fixed but because too many transactions are long not get confirmed then there is the increase transaction fee.
Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: skorupi17 on May 21, 2017, 05:57:55 PM I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon. Well that is because of the continuous rise in bitcoin's price. I will give you that. However, Bitcoin has a smaller unit, which is the Satoshi, which lower class can afford. I do not think that bitcoin will be exclusive for higher/rich class only in the near future, middle class should never be out of the picture here. Well I personally do not know why are we talking about social class here since we are talking about transaction fees being fixed. Yeah it has a small unit but the fees are outrageous. Who would pay $6-$8 for a smaller transaction to get confirmed? Buy a coffee with BTC if you can anymore So we are basically talking about using bitcoin on a daily basis, right? I do agree that paying so much in a transaction is so hilarious. That justifies that Bitcoin is very impractical to be used in a daily manner. It is like paying gold instead of fiat. This is the reason why I suggested the transaction fees to be fixed (#2 is applicable in this scenario). So having micro transaction would not become a pain. 2. A fixed transaction fee which is proportional to the size in bytes. Example 100 Satoshi/Byte no more, no less. The fee will be fixed and no one can add fee to gain priority. Seems fair. Block reward will keep on decreasing while number of miners will keep on rising, so miners will not earn any profit if fees are fixed and those miners will not find mining bitcoin profitable which will weaken the bitcoin network. Can you elaborate this further. I cannot quite comprehend what exactly your point is. How come that mining bitcoin will be not profitable? If you would consider #2 there will be a fixed fee per byte. Imagine how many transaction there is per day. Regardless of the block reward, they will have profit from mining. On the other hand, having competitors in mining is not the concern of the transaction fee at all. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: Nagadota on May 21, 2017, 05:59:57 PM Both of those options are impossible. I understood the concept. But if it worked that way, how would the miners be paid to continue mining after the production of new Bitcoins ended if there is no need to pay any fees?Transaction fees don't exist solely to pay miners for their work - if there were no transaction fees at all, they would still receive far more than enough as a block reward to keep the network secure. Originally, transaction fees were just a tiny extra donation to help get your transaction confirmed sooner than other people and not everyone would pay transaction fees. That's no longer the reason for transaction fees. The reason for the amount of fees now is that there are too many transactions now for them to fit in the blocks which are limited to one megabyte, so demand exceeds capacity and people have to "compete", so to speak, to get their transactions into a block. The solutions are either to increase the block size or alter the protocol in other ways (like SegWit and/or LN) which increase the capacity and implement scaling. So basically there needs to be a priority group as there are too many transactions being sent, and a fixed fee isn't possible. So transaction fees will not be necessary for a very long time - as the price rises, computer technology gets better and the block reward only decreases quite gradually relative to these factors, transaction fees will barely be needed at all for another 50 years or so at least. When they are, they should still not have to be very much to pay for "enough" miners (not that there is a precise number). Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: concept2 on May 21, 2017, 06:01:29 PM It will take a lot of time to develop a algorithm which is the same as what you are expecting. Moreover, even the fees are fixed, I do not think that it can solve the confirmation time because there are more than 20000 transactions which are not confirmed on the blockchain
Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: Qunenin on May 21, 2017, 06:06:19 PM I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon. Not really, i think bitcoin will remain an everyone currency. We need to fix and sort out the Tx Fee issue and more importantly the slow transaction fee which is not good for faster purchasing market. I think Miners needs to think a way so no one feels burden on the Tx issue. Currently you can see lots of people complaining about the amount of fee they send for a transaction and time it takes for the confirmations. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: skorupi17 on May 21, 2017, 06:06:33 PM IMHO ....why fix the transaction fee and block size etc....well ....it artificially keeps the price of btc low...with consensus we'd be looking at 4k btc imho
so the more FUD you have the more you can keep the price down...if you are a whale or big player..thus more coin accumulation only way consensus will be reached imho is if btc dumps back to say 1,000 usd and the other crypto's surge....until that happens ..no incentive by those stirring all this up to not continue to do the same FUD I'm likely wrong...feel free to point my errors out on this...but comparing it to other markets where big players can keep price low and accumulate..it sure smells the same imho :( [/quote] I am pointing to the fixing the transaction fee only and not about the block size. I never mentioned about the block size, I was pertaining to the transaction size (if ever your eyes get blurry or something that mistaken transaction size as block size). I cannot quite get the involvement of transaction fee to the price of bitcoin. The fact is that the demand and supply of bitcoin in the market dictates the price of bitcoin. The higher the demand, with respect to the supply, the higher the price. Can you clarify the involvement of price of btc here. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: Vishnu.Reang on May 21, 2017, 06:08:10 PM I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon. Bitcoin is quickly turning into a Tulip Bulb Mania / Brilliantly Crafted Ponzi. :P You can't say that Bitcoin is a ponzi, because the person who invented Bitcoin (Satoshi Nakamoto) never profited out of it. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: skorupi17 on May 21, 2017, 06:09:52 PM I think the transaction fee is fixed but because too many transactions are long not get confirmed then there is the increase transaction fee. No, the transaction fee was never fixed. Those are just recommended fee. If you say that the transaction fee is fixed, then how come you say that in order to not wait for confirmation, an increase in fee will exist. If something is fixed, that's it. No one can add nor decrease. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: Emoclaw on May 21, 2017, 06:15:52 PM The network had 200K unconfirmed transactions in the mempool a few days ago. Having a fixed fee would do more harm than good, as all transactions would be equally and painfully slow. Transaction fees serve the purpose of incentivizing miners to include a specific transaction in the next block. Fixed transaction fees would serve no such purpose.
It's Bitcoin's scalability that needs solving. If any one solution is adopted to fix scalability and allow more transactions per second, fees would go down significantly. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: joshy23 on May 21, 2017, 06:17:09 PM Why not we just totally removed the block size limit? Or just have a dynamic size generation based on the transaction demand?
Unfortunately, the demand for bitcoin right now is really very high causing the network to be clogged, that's why the bitcoin network is falling apart. The BU vs Segwit drama is far from over. So expect that transaction fee going to rise as we continue to struggle. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: darthmaul on May 21, 2017, 06:17:55 PM Waiting for the confirmation of every transaction has been a headache to us bitcoin users. And in order to avoid a long wait, higher fee is required which adds to our headache, well who would want to pay more just to gain priority, right? We just gain priority in paying more but we lose Bitcoin on the other hand. I have suggestion in mind that I really don't know if it is applicable or not. Suggestions are always welcome, right? 1. Why not make the transaction fee be fixed? Regardless of the size of transaction in byte. So if the transaction fee is equal to all transaction, some greedy miners would follow a First In, First Out. No priority. All equal. OR 2. A fixed transaction fee which is proportional to the size in bytes. Example 100 Satoshi/Byte no more, no less. The fee will be fixed and no one can add fee to gain priority. Seems fair. So what do you think? It is fair deal but it is not favour with developers. Why they will loose their profits which comes from the transactions. And also do not forget that when you do transaction the confirmation has to come from atlas 4 to 16 confirmations for which the nodes are used and fees are taken for that. I think it is fair from their side as well but as the users will grow in number the fees will decrease as well..that is just my assumption because at that time confirmations will be done faster on the basis of network rating. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: iluvpie60 on May 21, 2017, 06:21:23 PM BTC is becoming more and more unuseable for average people. Almost any poor country can no longer use it as those people make 10 cents an hour. We are using alt coins now and that is why you will see altcoins go up in price. If BTC solve their current issues expect alts to crash! Don't hold bags hehe.
Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: omonuyak on May 21, 2017, 06:23:05 PM Op, having the fees for confirmation fixed will resolve the current delay of confirmation we are facing now. To me the final resolution for this problem is to expand the network and also. Fees being fixed will create inequality in the system and this will make people with low income earning to start accusing bitcoin or crypto currencies in general to be for the rich.
Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: unamis76 on May 21, 2017, 06:44:10 PM Transaction fees are fine as is. You want to fix something that's not broken. What need addressing is scaling...
Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: Snorek on May 21, 2017, 06:59:56 PM I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon. Bitcoin is quickly turning into a Tulip Bulb Mania / Brilliantly Crafted Ponzi. :P You can't say that Bitcoin is a ponzi, because the person who invented Bitcoin (Satoshi Nakamoto) never profited out of it. It is more than 1 million bitcoins, and it is unknown whether Satoshi has still access to these coins or will ever decide to use/trade/dump them. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: jc89 on May 21, 2017, 07:03:23 PM Transaction fees are fine as is. You want to fix something that's not broken. What need addressing is scaling... That is for you, I think. Considering all users, they are not happy about the high transaction fee at all. I believe that OP is not trying say that the transaction fee is not broken or whatever, just impractical for other users. Having a fixed/constant transaction might be a good move but I personally do not know if it is really beneficial. I am not technical about this discussion but the idea is there. Scaling has been an issue since like forever now. While they debate, we suffer. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: Reid on May 21, 2017, 07:05:49 PM If that is that simple it would have been done already.
There are so much spam in the transaction that made it worse. A part of it is actually our fault as users and the others are for greed. They want more. Why not? Bitcoin is going up and having more will be a pleasant thing for them. If this remedy is really the cure for it someone must do it first and maybe the rest will follow. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: jacafbiz on May 21, 2017, 07:40:39 PM I think the transaction fee is fixed but because too many transactions are long not get confirmed then there is the increase transaction fee. But it is only fixed in Satoshi not USD value. Currently 50ksat is worth more than a Dollar and the transaction fee is now 100ksat minimum Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: piebeyb on May 21, 2017, 07:44:02 PM I believe this problem will find a good way out, at least just raising blocksize will help also to no longer make a long queue on transaction bitcoin
Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: TheWallStreetCrew on May 21, 2017, 07:57:05 PM The transaction fee issue will have to be revisited multiple times over the years as bitcoin price increases. And it will be fixed each time.
Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: The One on May 21, 2017, 08:02:58 PM I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon. Bitcoin is quickly turning into a Tulip Bulb Mania / Brilliantly Crafted Ponzi. :P That can only happen when one can't use it as electronic cash. Yes, it is turning into..... Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: franky1 on May 21, 2017, 09:34:28 PM as for the what solutions for bitcoin transaction fee
well implementing a new priority fee formulae that does a better job than the last one here is one example - not perfect. but think about it imagine that we decided its acceptable that people should have a way to get priority if they have a lean tx and signal that they only want to spend funds once a day. (reasonable expectation) where if they want to spend more often costs rise, if they want bloated tx, costs rise.. which then allows those that just pay their rent once a month or buys groceries every couple days to be ok using onchain bitcoin.. and where the costs of trying to spam the network (every block) becomes expensive where by they would be better off using LN. (for things like faucet raiding/day trading every 1-10 minutes) so lets think about a priority fee thats not about rich vs poor(like the old one was) but about reducing respend spam and bloat. lets imagine we actually use the tx age combined with CLTV to signal the network that a user is willing to add some maturity time if their tx age is under a day, to signal they want it confirmed but allowing themselves to be locked out of spending for an average of 24 hours.(thats what CLTV does) and where the bloat of the tx vs the blocksize has some impact too... rather than the old formulae with was more about the value of the tx https://i.imgur.com/WnGb05Q.png as you can see its not about tx value. its about bloat and age. this way those not wanting to spend more than once a day and dont bloat the blocks get preferential treatment onchain ($0.01). if you are willing to wait a day but your taking up 1% of the blockspace. you pay more ($0.44) if you want to be a spammer spending every block. you pay the price($1.44) and if you want to be a total ass-hat and be both bloated and respending EVERY BLOCK you pay the ultimate price($63.72) note this is not perfect. but think about it Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: Bit_Happy on May 22, 2017, 01:56:06 AM I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon. Bitcoin is quickly turning into a Tulip Bulb Mania / Brilliantly Crafted Ponzi. :P You can't say that Bitcoin is a ponzi, because the person who invented Bitcoin (Satoshi Nakamoto) never profited out of it. Bitcoin is not a traditional Ponzi, but it does have some obvious similarities: What if Satoshi solved the "Ponzi puzzle" & created the first ever sustainable one? Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? The free market is "fixing" the problem by giving new life and purpose to alt coins. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: 7788bitcoin on May 22, 2017, 02:12:11 AM Fee is part of the equilibrium of bitcoin system. At the moment, miners are getting rewarded by the block reward, which halves every 4 years. Therefore, fee will gradually take over the block reward as the incentive for the miner to work hard. This is one of the reason the miners are enjoying the current high fee situation...
Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: pooya87 on May 22, 2017, 04:21:26 AM 1. because in bitcoin you are paying for the space not the work. if you are taking up a lot of space (a big transaction size in byte) you need to pay a higher fee. and if you take a smaller space on the blockchain you pay a smaller fee.
2. if the way you are proposing was used, not a single big transaction would have been mined. because a miner simply sees 2 transactions: a big one (lets say 2500 bytes) and another small one (250 bytes) both paying the same fixed fee. the miner would obviously choose 10 of the small ones to get 10 fixed fees instead of 1 big one and get 1 fixed fee. Title: Re: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? Post by: skorupi17 on May 24, 2017, 08:18:57 PM ~snipped~ 2. if the way you are proposing was used, not a single big transaction would have been mined. because a miner simply sees 2 transactions: a big one (lets say 2500 bytes) and another small one (250 bytes) both paying the same fixed fee. the miner would obviously choose 10 of the small ones to get 10 fixed fees instead of 1 big one and get 1 fixed fee. That is the reason why I had suggested the #2 that states that the transaction fee will be fixed in relation to the byte size. So if the transaction fee will be just 100 Satoshi/byte and removing the capability of raising the fee, then there will be no prioritization. All will be equal since the fee is fixed per byte and no one will be able to add fee just to gain priority. |
