Bitcoin Forum

Jun-20 2011 04:42.

Why should everyone who profited from the crash suffer your inablitiy to secure the site?

Anyone who owns shouldn't have 500K in his Mt Gox account anyway (and make sure no one gets his/her password).

So, everyone who got cheap bitcoins today will have them reversed??? THAT is stealing!

Please give a statement to that!!!
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Jun-20 2011 04:27.

I also don't see how you can rollback transactions without losses. I had a trade that executed as the market dropped, shortly after I got spooked and withdrew my BTC (less then 100 more then 10) to my wallet. That BTC is now in my wallet confirmed. How can you possibly roll that back?
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I don't think you're realizing what a disaster this is. You won't be able to rollback all the transactions because substantial amounts of Bitcoins have been withdrawn, and you can't just declare a price of $17.5 or reinstate people's orders to achieve that price because circumstances have changed. I would object strongly if my prior order is reinstated without giving me a chance to review the current, rather than past, conditions. What of people who both bought and sold after the hack?

DON'T WORRY GUYS, MT. GOX HAS GOT THIS.

MTGOX IS NOW NAKED SHORT ON BITCOINS. IT DOES NOT HAVE THE BITCOINS IT SAYS IT DOES

THEY ARE MANIPULATING THE MARKET BY NOW SETTING THE PRICE TO 17.51

I agree. Im begining to think I might have some serious problems on my hands now.

It's those replies on their site and a few others that led me to post this...

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19587.0

If you withdrew, they will rollback and subtract what you withdrew. If you withdrew more than you had before the rollback, they may have to just cover the losses. They've made enough to. I just hope they don't decide the losses are to much and restarting isn't worth it since they lost everyone's trust and disappear.

Perhaps they will put your account negative and require you to return the funds to continue trading.

I'll bet a bitcoin they will leave that message up for several days, give a few rounds of excuses, and their site will disappear by next week.

Any takers?

but how do you know this?

I really hope they'll not reinstantiate all the standing orders without giving a chance to review them against current conditions (in particular the current price at other exchanges).

The number of coins that actually left MtGox is small and limited, so while those may be lost for good, the vast majority of the big theft are still with them, and reversing their trades will repair most of the damage. Perhapt Mt. Gox will personally compensate the remaining amount from their own wallets?  

I think it's good this is happening while bitcoins is still so new and "fledgling." It's still in Beta. Anyone who didn't expect crazy stuff like this was naive, but the Bitcoin will emerge stronger. Stronger exchanges, stronger passwords, and lots of new information.

The market will heal.

You're on! :)

It shouldn't be rolled back.  MtGox needs to cover the losses of the guy who was hacked, and that should be it.

If that happens we will send Atlas after him.

The SPECULATOR (pump and dump) market will heal.

The LEGITIMATE vendor/consumer market will not.

Bitcoin grabbed the spotlight too early if it wasn't ready for prime-time.

Cause it got major fucking prime-time attention, and a whole hell of a lot more is coming next week, bet your bottom bitcoin (which is probably quite worthless at this point) on it.

BTC as anything but an "investors" circle-jerk and criminal paypal is gone, probably for good.  Maybe in another year or two BTC might have a chance at being a legit e-currency, but it's doubtful...

very soon, there will no exchange named mtgox

I know this because people have withdrawn bitcoins from MtGox to their personal wallets (look around people said this on this forum).

This means MtGox no longer has the Bitcoin it's supposed to have.

MtGox should not rollback, but instead continue and refund the hacked accounts who lost bitcoins.

If they rollback they should be put in jail for breaking the law. This is not how exchanges are allowed to function by law.

Even if Mtgox lost a large number of bitcoins, they can temporarily work like a fractional reserve bank until they recoup all the accounts with the 0.65% fee.

Excuse me, did he get hacked because he cannot into passwords and used something like "johnqwerty" as his pw, or because MtGox got exploited?

I think the rollback it necessary and fine. Mt Gox might just have to take losses from people who withdrew. I'm sure not all that many did.

Gosh, it's like a bitcoiners dream!

"Chargebacks"

Fractional Reserves

Everything we stand for as a community!

Yee Haw cowboys.

Did you carry out the mathematication rituals necessary to divine whether they have enough coins to cover the rollback out of their own pockets or not?  ::)

Also, are you an expert lawyer dealing with Japanese legislation governing virtual commodity exchanges (or whatever Japanese laws might apply)?  ::)

What would you rather?  Him to just take bitcoins away from everyone, possibly a large number.  Or just pretend he still has them until he has replenished all the bitcoins with the fee?  Just like a regular bank.

That'll work just fine because first thing you see if Mt.Gox ever opens again is a freaking bank run.

Fuck, I forgot you need the /sarcasm tag on the Intardwebz.

Your definantly on!

I think there will be a "bank run" on Mt Gox after this incident. If Mt Gox do not have enough bitcoins, some people is going to eat the loss.

I am glad I found something wrong with my account less than 24 hours ago, and I changed my password to 24 character long, and withdraw all btc at the same time.

I just found it unbelievable that so many people blindly trusted Mt Gox even with all the hints show up in the last few days.

Mt Gox is not part of the bitcoin "project", nor is it part of the community. It is a private enterprise just accidently involved in the business of bitcoin trading.

Pretty sure something 99% of bitcoin users also use, constitutes being part of the "community"...

If you lost a lot, then try to network with other people who lost money and see if you can file a class action suit against Mt. Gox.

Should be much easier if they hold US Bank accounts and you can sue them in a US jurisdiction. Japan is very hostile to civil litigation.

Oh God, this would be the most EPIC of examples of exactly what I've talked about a number of times in my prior threads.

PLEASE someone try to bring a lawsuit concerning bitcoins to court.

Nothing would make our lives more interesting here, I assure you.

How can you lose a lot by the rollback? Do you mean the stolen bitcoins you picked up for $0.10 and had for 10 minutes? You will have as much as you had earlier today.

A steals something from B and sells it to C. If C doesn't know that it was stolen from B, then if B demands that C give it back, he is demanding that a theft be committed. Period.

so you admit to knowingly buying stolen goods?  Doesn't that make you an accessory?  If you didn't know they were stolen when you bought them you do now.  You still think you want them?

I can't believe people are expressing righteous indignation because they can't keep the stolen bitcoins someone threw in their general direction.  Good luck getting a lawyer to prepare a class action suit based on the principle of "finders keepers."

If Mt. Gox is indeed short some amount of bitcoins, it'll just be taken out of whatever's left of the hacked account I imagine.


Who cares what A demands, he stole it in the first place.

Here's how it works in the real world: If someone sells you something and you later find out it was stolen, you are trafficking in stolen goods if you don't return it.

So, apparently, the police commit theft every day? Just be glad that you still get your money back.

I made a typo (braino?). I meant to write, "...then if B demands that C give it back..."

Here's a reality check for you: every bill in your wallet that is more than a year old was almost certainly stolen from someone at some point. Anyone who supports a rollback should whip out all of the US currency in their possession and post the serial numbers. That way, if someone else can determine that they were stolen from someone at some point, we can return the stolen bills. Yay!

To all of you who bought bitcoins at about 5 cents and are now pissed coz Mt Gox are doing a rollback I have only one thing to say: Fuck you! You knew something was wrong, you tried to capitalize and thought you got away with it. Don't blame you guys for trying, most of us would have. I blame you for bitching about the rollback, calling it stealing, and claiming to not understand that something was wrong when the other markets traded at around 15$ at the same time.

Except of course, everyone knows what a volotile market BTC is and so it very well could have been a totally legit sell off by an early investor.

Right?

Isn't that how this wonderful free market works?

 ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

I think the opposite is true, and I think that there's a chance Bitcoin will be better for it.

So long as there is at least some value to a coin and it's not too wishy-washy, I'm sure there will still be vendors out there willing to accept coins for goods and services. I know we're still seriously considering it, but then again our business doesn't live or die by Bitcoin. There doesn't even need to be a way to turn BTC into USD for us to still be interested in it, as long as we can find someone that has something we want who will take our coins. I'm sure there are lots (the die-hard devs included) who will still feel this way.

Well, below 5$ could have been semi-realistic maybe but from 17 to 0.01 in a couple of hours? This is from the bitcoin-extension Bitcoin Ticker:

Trader   High   Low   Buy   Sell
MTGox   $ 18.88   $ 0.01   $ 11.50   $ 12.01
TradeHill   $ 18.00   $ 10.00   $ 13.00   $ 13.50
Bitomat   zł 123.00   zł 1.00   zł 37.01   zł 38.50
BritCoin   £ 11.50   £ 5.00   £ 10.31   £ 10.00

It was at 0.01!!!!. During a fall crazy like that wouldn't you check forums and other markets and realize something is wrong? Even if people didn't understand at the time, which I doubt, they should accept it now.

from merely looking at trade data, this event was indistinguishable from one in which a large holder of bitcoins tried to sell his or her holdings. you can't infer bad faith on the part of any buyer of bitcoins (or anyone else) from the data.

there is no way to determine whether someone relying on the data that mt. gox was broadcasting was thinking that it was data mt. gox would intend to reverse. indeed, the natural assumption would be that because mt. gox was broadcasting it, it was 'real' trade data; if that is not true, that is only mt. gox's fault.

as for resale of stolen goods, this varies widely from one legal system to the next. but in almost all legal systems, regardless of the other rules, currency that is innocently exchanged for value is never taken back without a refund of the value. that's why it's called 'currency': because the current holder of it can dispose of it. financial instruments in general are treated differently from consumer goods.

thus, in the united states, if i steal your motorcycle and sell it to an innocent party for $10,000, you can get the motorcycle back from that innocent party; the innocent party will be left with a loss if the thief is insolvent. (this is not true in most european countries, where the rule is the opposite.) however, importantly, even in the united states, if i steal your briefcase with $10,000, buy stock, sell the stock, and then use the proceeds to buy a week's holiday in a posh hotel, the money is unrecoverable either from (1) the stock exchanger, (2) the party who took the dollars in exchange for stock, and (3) the hotel.

A more extreme and simpler analogy ... If I get receive change from a store which later turns out to be stolen currency I shouln't have to give it back.

Further more, it is not clear yet that all sold Bitcoins were stolen. Some people cold have panicked and sold  into the plunge with "legit" coins.

what are you doing to make it better?

Watching you.

Yes... MtGox should have had an in penetrable infrastructure.

Yes... You should not have 500k btc sitting in your account at MtGox.

If you piggy backed off of somebody else's illegal  venture and made money... it's not legit money. 

Think of it like this.  If you're walking down the street and somebody throws a brick through the window of a store and starts stealing stuff.  If you follow suit and steal stuff too, you're still stealing stuff.  If you're not viewing these as ill-gotten gains, you have a skewed point of view.

If you lucked out and got a shit load of btc for $0.01.... lucky you.  You have nothing to worry about regarding roll backs. 

If you bought a shit load of btc for $0.01 and left them sitting in your mtgox account... well shit.. you're probably SOL.

What I'm wondering is exactly what kind of person has that much btc in their mtgox account. Was it a wealthy day trader, or one of these nefarious individuals rumor says are using bitcoins. If it was the criminal type that hacker may not get to spend much...

Yes I realize this is rather Hollywood-istic but maybe.... ;o)