Bitcoin Forum

Let's leave price aside.

IOTA promises to have found the holy grail - infinite scalability with zero transaction fees.

If that is truly so, then screw just the IoT usage, such a system should replace every imaginable form of value transaction known to humanity.

Questions that arise from it are:
1. What is the mechanism behind such an ingenious discovery?
2. How come nobody came with the idea before (there must have been some bright minds within blockchain technology who understood the scalability and fee problem and never came up with solution)?
3. What prevents other coins from implementing such a revolutionary design?
4. Can other coins with established market caps and track records switch to such a design?
5. Who secures the network if there is no fee-incentive?

I've seen the IOTA thread pop up from time to time so naturally I had a look at it, Honestly my opinion is split, on one side it sounds too good to be true, on the other seems like a smart investment.

Anyone knows whats the final supply of IOTA and if there's any inflation?

I would like to know the details too. Sounds to god to be true. It looks like it's 100% premined

Circulating Supply
2,779,530,283 IOT
Max Supply
2,779,530,283 IOT


How was that ugly number decided? how did the coins get released into the market?

Same here. I am trying to disregard whether it is a good investment or not.
I would be interested to learn and understand how does this IOTA thing work and what is so special, unique and unthought of before.

Unfortunately that is a claim I have seen no evidence to support.  A transactional DAG still relies on a global state to ensure double spends can't happen, thus its still vertical in nature even though the architecture promotes horizontal scaling.

Ultimately the problem of scale comes into effect when you try and shard it.  The structure of the transactions within the DAG is shard-friendly, but the consensus is not.

Lets say we shard a DAG into 2, and I present a transaction on the strongest tip on each shard.  Unless there is still a node that has both shards, the transactions I presented will validate in each, thus a double spend.

The 2 shard example is very simple, but as it scales you'll have less overlap between shards as nodes scale back how many shards they can support, thus the possibility of double spends going undetected increases.  Auto-detecting shard availability and overlap is an NP-Complete problem...i.e expensive!

Does IOTA have a mechanism to mitigate this?  I don't know and for my example I'm talking about a pure DAG implementation.  If there is a solution it will likely be a form of master node that witnesses all transactions within the network / batch of shards and alerts on a possible double spend across shards.  Not really ideal IMO.

The good news is, I researched and implemented similar architectures a number of years ago now and it certainly WILL scale better than a block chain (a lot better), and the lack of a global state won't become a problem for quite some time.  IMO though, it's no holy grail, just step forward in the right direction.


1. Not sure what the question is.
2. They have, DAGs have been around for a while, using them in a decentralized transactional nature is fairly recent and so development has taken the time.
3 & 4.  Can't be done, they are TOTALLY different architectures.  It'd be like trying to install a combustion engine into a horse to make the horse run faster.
5. Thats IOTA specific, so I can't really answer it.

The total supply of IOTA is (3^33-1) / 2, which equals to a total number of IOTA's of 2779530283277761. IOTA is specifically designed for machines, so this high supply makes IOTA optimal for tiny nanotransactions while still keeping efficiency in mind. It also nicely fits into the MAX_SAFE_INTEGER value in Javascript.

they had the ico a good while ago, and i believe sold nearly all IOTA, not sure how much if any was held for devs only.  i guess i just missed out

Thanks Fuserleer but I feel like a 4 year old who has just been given a lecture on quantum mechanics.

I guess I am to far behind to be asking the questions in the first place. Lot of reading ahead.

i do not understand it neither.
also, I do not understand if it is all free transacitons, why people would pay for it being 1.6bln market cap?

does not make any sense to me.
i do not own it, will not buy it until i understand what it is.

Ok let me present a simpler example.

I have a Picasso painting I want to sell, and I make a copy of it also.

I find 2 buyers, Alice and Bob and we all meet in the same room.  I give Alice the original and Bob the copy.

Because Bob is in the same room as me and Alice, he can witness that there are 2 copies of said Picasso and can refuse to accept the one I gave him.  Alice can also, as there is no way for either of them to determine which is the copy and which is the original (plus you probably would call off the deal even if you could because of the dishonesty).

With sharding, I meet Alice in a room, and Bob meet in another.  I give them both a Picasso and take payment.  They are both unaware that there is a copy as they have not witnessed the existence of one, so they both pay up.

The problem therefore, is how to allow Alice and Bob to become aware of whats happening in the other room, reliably and without needing to trust a 3rd party to tell them, without actually having to BE in the room.

Does that make it more clear?

This isn't just an issue for IOTA or a DAG, this issue exists when sharding a block chain too.

It does. The problem.
But not the solution.

For a DAG and a block chain I believe there is no acceptable solution without relying on trusting 3rd parties (master nodes for example, which trade security for performance).

I spent a lot of time trying to solve the problem on both technologies and I could not.  Resource based consensus mechanisms (POW, POS) are not designed with sharding in mind.

The only solution is to start fresh and design BOTH an architecture AND consensus algorithm at the same time that support sharding/partitioning.

Thanks a lot. You have been a great help already. Could you expand just a bit on what exactly sharding is and why is it important.

Permanode != Masternode

Dan really knows his stuff. Makes me even more happy about the upcoming radix launch.

Yep, it seems it was 100% premined, then it suddenly appeared in coinmarketcap above litecoin... funny.

From the comments above (Fuserleer, banano... thanks for your hindsight) it seems this is another broken promise with impossible claims.

Another failed attempt at solving bitcoin problems it seems?

I actually intended to invest into IOTA - joined their slack a while ago - have mostly only followed what people post in there - and due to the somewhat chaotic chatter around the ICO/Bitfinex saga, I have to say: I'm holding back my investment, as I sense/feel IOTA is not ready and does not have a public face ready to stand on it's legs.
Too many unanswered facts for the public to inform themselves from - or to be fair - the answers may be out there somewhere - but if so, they are certainly deep into a tangle, hard to find.

Somewhat.

Total supply is actually  2,779,530,283,277,761

The reason supply is shown as MIOTA at the link below is that the M stands for MillionIOTA.

http://coinmarketcap.com/

Not that it matters much. Bitcoin is divisible to 8 decimal places.

Iota is a crypto paradigm shift.

From what I can intuit and I may be wrong  but the tangles reach a specific usage in a local area that is become impractical to double spend them, then these thangles themselves at the edges are also parts of other tangles, and the whole thing gets sort of stitched together in a mesh of tangles....

What may happen is sort of an unlikely en tropic event and a tangle becomes sort of detached or not sufficently hooked up, but the more people you have using (or things) this becomes infinitesimally small chance

What do you think of https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Sharding-FAQ then?

Some information on double-spend:

https://forum.iota.org/t/iota-double-spending-masterclass/1311

Would eliminating the global state be a step in the right direction ?
I came across another coin without fees(Raiblocks), that states having replaced "shared state" with "message passing" to be able to scale better.

Here some lines from the whitepaper :
RaiBlocks is designed to be a scalable and efficient distributed ledger platform.  The design makes several significant improvements over alternatives giving a simple system that can process transactions in seconds making it a useful in a digital world.
To get these performance improvements we apply a critical optimization borrowed from concurrent computing where we replace shared state with message passing. This eliminates shared state contention greatly improving global throughput and lowering transaction time.
...
The ledger is the global set of accounts and each account has its own chain.  Only one entity can add a transaction to an account’s chain, the account owner.  This means each chain is not a shared data structure eliminating all contention when adding transactions to the ledger.

The ANN is quite small : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1381323.0

IOTA is your refrigerator talking to your lawn mower. What they will talk about I have no ideas. Maybe how wars influence oil prices or how fast lately Eggs gets bad.

Are you guys aware that Xtrabytes does everything IOTA does and more and is 10m marketcap?

Plus it solves the 51% attack (no other coin does this) And didn't grab millions in an ICO. Its getting silly how unknown it is now.

Now we are aware, thank you.

Great. You're a good guy. I did great on NXT. Good luck with IOTA. Not cheap though.. 8)

Ping me in 6 months when you change your mind, please.

You mean it will be more expensive than now?

There are 2 interpretations, I let everyone pick what they like.

It probably will be, but it'll never be used on IoT devices.

It's common sense that small transaction fees like Byteball would make a million times more sense than having to do PoW on IoT devices.

Doing transactions on IoT devices would destroy the battery life.

I do not even care to understand the technology.


Why?

They premined the whole thing, claiming it is worth 1,000,000,000 dollars.

Now they wait till there is enough orderbook developed for them to dump it on innocent bypassers.

So far, the daily volume is far from enough to absorb any dump. So they wait.

Really, if about 20? people control a billion, each gonna make 10-100million out of a decent dump; do you think they are "religious" enough not to get rich in one click?

This thing has no market dynamics that formed it. The price is fake, the technology is not there yet. Only reason it is not crashing is there is not enough market for it to crash yet.

TELL me who holds the IOTA, I tell you what happens next.

I'm pretty sure you'll make into the 2nd season of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD9fArwkhNY...

EDIT: Sorry, after rewatching the video I spotted you are already there

Neither I understand iota strategy nor I understand the free transaction I just believe in iota because of huge market cap which is 1.6 billion that is the only thing i believe in iota

Well, I can see that you've never heard of the dotcom bubble.

If you go by that logic, you'll be losing a lot of money in the years ahead...

Lololololololol funny thing is as silly as this sounds and no reference to IOTA this pretty much sums up at least 50% of investors thinking.

So IOTA has a market cap of $1,055,215,318  on CoinMarketCap.
If the M stands for million that is $1,055,215,318 * 1000000 = 1 055.21532 trillion US$
That's a lot, Google didn't even want to write it in numbers.
I mean, it feels like there's only the way down from that point.

Don't get confused between the global marketcap of the Iota ecosystem and the value of "one" iota token. Actually the later is "quite low", and 1 million IOTA tokens is worth about 0,38 USD. As you've got about 2 800 000 000 MIOTA in total, the total marketcap of all iota tokens is 0,38x 2 800 000 000 so roughly 1,05B Usd.

From the lack of answers in this thread, the answer is No.

Not even the main devs understand it, they are working on solutions for the mentioned obvious problems of PoW on IoT, or achieving global consensus and trustless DAG-coin.

Coordinator, so far they took a short-cut and they cant provide an answer when if ever it will be turned off.

The answer was provided. Unfortunatelly, not everyone got it.

What a breakthrough that must have been in the last 30 min, since I checked, then the IOTA Centralized Coordinator was still active! Amazing! Such progress you and your coin made in only 30mins! /sarcasm

You probably forgot that IOTA is decentralized and we can't force users to go without Coordinator. Every user will decide himself when it's time to go without Coordinator.

The best future that have IOTA it's no fees for transactions, and they describe how it works on there website. But it's really complicated explained to the people and only people who have good mathematical skills can calculate that formulas

This article gives a good analysis for understanding IOTA:
https://hacked.com/ico-analysis-iota/

Really man, Why did you force your users to switch from Curl to SHA3? You called it a "network upgrade".

IOTA with a Coordinator is a shit scam coin worse than using fiat with banks.

I have not also completely understood IOTA technically but I think it is good coin, you should look at the analysis of theymos in his thread

Not sure your words are true taking into account that you put all your money into Byteball right before the crash. Do you think by posting here you can affect the price positively?.. Let's check it, would be an interesting experiment!

It dont really work so ...
Technology existed before and this tangle thingy is called different in Bitcoin.

But in general everyone has rights to innovate.

Ive made money on both Byteball and IOTA, seeing how there is no lack of retarded sheep willing to swallow your hype and scam IOTA.

One of these, Byteball, will be around in 2050 the other long dead and inactive just like your previous coin Nxt.

I know, this is why you swing from talking shit to praise IOTA. I can gauge your current IOTA holdings just by checking your last post about IOTA. Right now you sold all iotas and want to buy cheaper.  :D

Sold all my iotas which I bought to test back in 2016, a mistake, like so many others make, to belive the marketing instead of checking technology first.

As you said, iota is worthless without the closed source Coordinator.

The tangle technology from my perspective is theoretical but potentially revolutionary. If it succeeds the repercussions could be massive.

Truth is many people dont care about the tech, they just want to know how much money the speculation on it is going to make them

I read a post from Theymos yesterday which states IOTA actually has some decent technological innovations over Bitcoin called Tangle. Although I do not understand it... so can't offer much more than that.

I believe IOTA will go to the moon, look at the concept they describe, I am still studying and investigating about IOTA, but I started to like this. It looks like it will have a bright future prospect.

Quote or take your lies elsewhere, shill.

Read my criticism of iota on this forum.

There is nothing wrong with the ambition, the vision, IoT, but the technical implementation, the "PoW on IoT" and "The Tangle" is oxymoronic at best and retarded at worst.

Currently and past 2 years IOTA is more centralized than PayPal, without the Coordinator iota is worthless according to its main dev.

If it seems too good to be true, it is too good to be true.

I don't understand it. So I have stayed away.

Nice thread though.

I remember your name from a long time ago. Aren't you the creator of eMunie? What's going on with that?

You should provide the direct links, because it's hard to find criticism among the lies spread by you to protect your investment into Byteball.

Read my criticism of iota on this forum.

There is nothing wrong with the ambition, the vision, IoT, but the technical implementation, the "PoW on IoT" and "The Tangle" is oxymoronic at best and retarded at worst.

Currently and past 2 years IOTA is more centralized than PayPal, without the Coordinator iota is worthless according to its main dev.

EDIT: Begin here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1354220.msg17697705#msg17697705

And his "trust" rating.  :D

so, did you get paid for these flaws you found ? haven't had time to read through all iota threads.

cheers

No, CfB lost many bets with me, never payed up. I pointed out a flaw in his Curl function in February, that was laughed at, and they required I de-anon myself if to be taken seriously for a measly $10k usd reward, not even worth my time. Its in the "IOTA Unmoderated" thread.

Yes, I chuckled when another researcher also discovered flaws in Curl, and iota had to "network upgrade" to sha3.  :D

Iota cannot work as designed.

Without miners there is no possible, trustless convergence - it will live forever with coordinators and be as centralised as visa, with none of the benefits.

I like how you generate lies, you have an extra-ordinary imagination. Today's gem


made my day.

PS: Next time posting lies make sure you don't fuck dates up again.  :D

Bold claims, dude, post some math if you want to make your claims look credible.

No maths required. I quote my previous post on the subject:

Ok.

The whole whitepaper assumes that everybody always has the gigantic tangle.

I got the information that it should work via clustering. But no single word in the whitepaper about that. In my theory I cannot validate a tx if I do not have the whole tangle. I cannot know if he has the funds or not. Now I can trust a cluster or simply validate without knowing if tx is valid. Tursting a cluster would be centralized.

Marketing and website of the company is pretty good. But they actually never try to explain how it really works.

In my opinion people will never use this system because it is way to abstract and nobody understands it (i it is really a valid system and no scam).

Try to ask in their slack for information. They will spam you with pointless articles (about swarm intellegence, human stampedes, human crush, whatever) and not even try to explain it. This seems pretty scammy. Many cryptoscams are easily spotted, this one would be unspottable, because they can just claim you do not understand it.

Information from slack:

"It's a whitepaper on tangle, not on iota swarms".

That was ther reasoning why no single sentence about how it actually works in the whitepaper. So in reality they did not even reveal how it works in their whitepaper. This iota swarms whitepaper will come next year.

Ever heard of Quantum Mechanics? Thanks for adding "in my opinion", now we see how much it's worth.

Bold claims scammer, turn of the Coordinator if you want to look credible.

Thanks for the profits. Hint: I could not sell the iotas earlier/last year because I was banned form your slack where yassin was.

Another lie, you could just register a sockpuppet.

Didnt consider the value of those iotas to be worth the time to sockpuppet.

No need to create a solid-looking legend, noone believes you anyway.

IOTA (IOT) is a brand new and micro-transaction optimized Internet-of-Things (IoT). Unlike the heavy and heavy Blockchain of Bitcoin or similar platforms, IOTA is designed for other uses.

God damn shills and sockpuppets.

Main dev of iota didnt know anything about IoT, he was Java programmer at best. Considered raspberry pi to be an IoT device.

Thats how much IoT there is in iota.

Of course, you can't find the quote even if your life depends on that.  :D

I remember the nigh this coin get top on marketcap with out any information.. and after 2 month.. I still dont get how IOTA work.... poor me. still remember they say this is 3rd tech blockchain or something like that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYbRyVrrUDY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYbRyVrrUDY)
https://iotasupport.com/whatisiota.shtml (https://iotasupport.com/whatisiota.shtml)
http://learn.iota.org/faqs (http://learn.iota.org/faqs)

jeez...

and last, most important
http://www.giyf.com/gfx/en/simpsons_board.gif

:P

I'm waiting for a whitepaper. Releasing a tangle whitepaper whithout an "iota swarm" whitepaper is like releasing no whitepaper. They say this whitepaper will come next year ^^.

Because...

?

Because a tangle on it's own works if everybody has the whole tangle, but in a real world scenario you need network logic. You cannot assume that everybody has the whole tangle like in the tangle whitepaper. And there is no information on this part besides:


In other words that means as long as you do not run a complete full node you have to trust others, which makes it more or completely centralized as the tangle grows.

means you give your processing power and data in third party hands they compute something and then they have the current state (from that cluster). Because you cannot verify/confirm tx on your own (because you do not have the necessary information) you are completely dependent on third party, which makes it in fact centralized. And all that gets even worse as the tangle grows.

Tell this to Ethereum devs, they'll be laughing hard at you.

why? I'm not so much into Ethereum, I'm focussing on other projects.

Because they claim the opposite. Whom should I trust, to them (who proved their expertise) or to you (who is a random dude from the Internet)?

I guess you speak about Ethereum sharding or so. I think this discussion should not happen in the IOTA thread.

Who can recall the chain letters. You, considered "lucky" by the organizers, receive a letter which instructs you to spread it to, let's say, 4 people and push them to each send it to 4 other people and so on. The moment you found 4 people you are done confirmed in the game.
For the game to continue there must be ever more newcomers.
IOTA transaction confirmations wok in similar way, with a major difference, the "newcomers" can return again and again.
At the moment people are buying IOTA and holding it, But for the tangle to function holders should just have another wallet and send their iotas forth and back. the more actions the faster it gets, until the real use of iota, communication machine to machine, comes to life, and will have the machines keep the tangle alive automatically and we enjoy free transactions among each other.

I expected a direct answer to the direct question...

You are a nobody, can not expect from others what you do not provide either. Answer the questions in this thread about IOTA or stfu and enjoy your scammed money.

I'm so offended, because I value your opinion very much. Just like the others.  :D

He's just a "investor" not as developer. He believes in this project. I talked with him in slack. I doubt that he understands it.

Think about it you do not have thew whole tangle. You should approve two transactions. So without going two a third party and aks it for state you can you confirm in the dark, which implies that your transaction maybe is not legitim.

Try to ask such a question on slack they will give you that as answer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle).

As already pointed out they are trying to make an unspottable scam, where they constantly try to tell you that you do not have the knowledge to understand. They also claim that they have some revolutary technique behind iota that currently nobody is aware of and do not release information about it. At the current state they running their system with a centralized coordinator and they haven't released any information how it should run without it.

Be aware...

Haha, you took it too seriously, it seems. Dude, you are marked as a troll in my note book. I'm talking to you only because your are funny, after all that nonsense you posted - no way you understand what you are talking about when it's related to tech.

Just to give you a clear picture guys. This is not only since I posted something here that he and the developers provide such references to wikipedia with such abstract articales, this was also going on since the beginning as I was trying to figure out if it is a legitime approach. All people in the iota slack then come up with such articles. This is their plan to hide the scam.

In case if you didn't read my last reply on Slack:

The problem lies and is always going to be, if you are going to do away with mining, then it has to be provide 100%, and no matter what that is going to put that in tire supply coins in either Developers or in this case the original funders hands. That creates matter of trust, and amount of responsibility some people are prepared to handle.

You are placing the trust of the entire system and the developers or the company's pants if you're going to let them hold on to every uncirculated coin or if this case that original bunch of coins ended up divided tweet several people that funded the project and that means that they now have the responsibility of dispersing it, making it popular, and added value to it, so basically the developer got paid, and passed off the responsibility of going somewhere with the coin to the original funders.

IOTA is scalable and payments are free, making many applications in the IoT viable. Not without reason are companies like Bosch very interested in such technologies, because a future in which each car pays for itself in the parking garage makes our lives easier.

Whether IOTA can prevail, only the future will show, because a “proof of concept” must be provided in real-world applications. As with Bitcoin, the risk of the bubble is significant, because without genuine applications I personally consider such a crypto-currency worthless.

What is exciting, however, is whether the Lightning network will have a positive effect and whether profitable applications may soon be on display.


For IoT, where machines pay machines, we need a payment system that can process tiny transactions in huge numbers and in real time. It must be cheap, or even better, free, fast and scalable. And that is exactly what Bitcoin cannot do, according to experts, but it remains to be seen what improvements the newly created Lightning network will bring.

Here, payments are to be executed via many separate micropayment channels, which make it possible to execute transactions virtually in parallel to the Blockchain. Instead, two users can make as many transactions as they like, without informing all the participants in the blockchain about the cash flow. Only the final amount of their transaction will be noted afterwards.

Volkswagen is working closely with IOTA, so much so that their Chief Digital Officer (CDO), Johann Jungwirth has joined the IOTA foundation’s supervisory board.

 The Volkswagen group consists of 12 motoring brands, Lamborghini, Porsche, Bentley, Audi & Bugatti to name just a few.

The skills, connections, and influence Jungwirth can bring to the German-based IOTA foundation could prove to be very significant.