Bitcoin Forum

I wanted to gauge interest in a new project I am putting together. I am setting up a new service where by you can have encrypted bitcoin private keys laser engraved in Diamond for safekeeping and as an ultra-luxury product.

We will be launching a website soon but we will also have a brick-and-mortar store location as well so you can bring in your loose diamonds for engraving, or you can purchase certified loose diamonds through us. Alternatively, we will have expert jewelers on site that can remove and replace diamonds from existing settings (rings for example) if you wanted to engrave on a diamond that is already set in jewelry.

The engraving does not affect any of the diamonds physical characteristics (nor changes its value) and will be microscopic. It will be done directly through our partners in Belgium. For non-local customers, shipping will be done via insured carrier and is safe.

I am interested in what questions the community might have about such a service so that I can have them answered already when we launch the website. It's hard to get any sort of market data on a product so novel such as this. What would you want to know before buying an engraved diamond? I'm all ears and very curious to hear peoples opinions!

how much would the service cost?

How do we know you haven't recorded the private key?

When you order you would generate an encrypted private key on your own machine, or potentially on a hardware device like a yubikey. This is the only way to guarantee the security of your key.

Down the road if the service was popular, we would consider a dedicated app or hardware device that would allow you to manage your diamonds

As for price, the basic service would not be so expensive, but long term we would be aiming for a luxury market. We are based in the Czech Republic.

Uh? If you engrave the key then of course you know it and you can record it!

Then you need a second diamond for the password  :D

Hence it being encrypted by the client first. The key on the diamond would be useless for anyone else. :-)

That's a good idea actually. For rich people who keep the Diamonds in 2 separate places.

There isn't much point to it then. I actually thought of a similar service using a cnc router but discarded the idea for that reason.

We are working with some talented industrial designers to create special encasings for the diamonds that overcomes this problem. IE: the private key needs only to be hidden from the us the engravers. But the diamond can be held in a special case that in combination with the diamond yields a non-encrypted private key. There are a number of really amazing things that can be done on the really high level to make an incredible product. At the start however we will use encrypted keys. Splitting keys across diamonds is quite interesting as well.

This is so davinci code... Diamond Private Keys with Davinci Code decrypters.  Tres cool.

Thanks, we are hoping that this might have a special appeal for some members of the community.

I think it seems like a risky idea - you are putting something that others may see as garbage into something that everyone sees as valuable.

A thief would certainly steal a diamond, but probably not a broken plastic toy or whatnot.

If I wanted to have a key engraved, it would rather be into some regular (non corrosive)metal, plastic or glass that will be conceived as a plain object to anyone that is not in the know.
How about a fork with a tooth missing in a "man-drawer" with a key engraved - IMHO that would be much more safe.  ;D

this http://i.qkme.me/3tryd1.jpg

but seriously, interesting service ... beats a tattoo! :)

While there are definitely markets for that, the market we are thinking about is an ultra-luxury niche. People who enjoy having things like diamonds and things like bitcoin. While the 'hidden in plain sight' is a good idea, it works with diamonds- wealthy people have quite a lot of diamonds around in general, women in particular. Not to mention, it might be something you enjoy keeping in a safe. After all, the engraving is microscopic- the Diamond does not lose any value by being engraved.

Also, a Diamond is a heck of a lot more durable then a broken plastic toy or really anything else for that matter. With the exception of being shattered (and lasers) they are impervious to pretty much everything else.

Besides that- the cool factor says it all. Who wants a billion dollars stored on a broken plastic toy? :-)

Is it possible to engrave a key on a crystalline lens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_(anatomy))? Very handy to always have ur key in front of ur eye(s)...  ;D

Good point. I think this is relevant for everyone with Bitcoin's. It's an interesting idea as well for mult-sig security. You could for example engrave one signature of a 2 of 3 sig transaction in the diamond. Put it in the bank. Then you could give the other two keys to your wife and your child. If you die, either one would be able to retrieve the bitcoin.

Additionally to response again to the hiding bitcoins in plain sight- if you were to die, there is a much higher chance of your broken toy being overlooked and simply thrown out. No one throws out diamonds, but very few would think to check it with a microscope (unless they were selling it). Also, people are well trained how to treat things like diamonds seriously so someone might safeguard a diamond without even knowing there are bitcoins stored in them, while the same can't be said of a broken toy or some very ordinary looking object. The idea is to hide it in a "seek and you shall find" kind of way.

I think generally it's possible to engrave anything, although if you are talking about engraving it into your eye It might not last. Certainly glass contacts it should be possible.

Speaking about creepy items though- I am talking with someone about what it would take to create sub-dermal implants: RFID chips or the physical sub dermal piercing that could contain your private key below the skin, or even an engraved QR code on the protruding part of some sub-dermal implants.

Needless to say, the popularity of such devices might be quite far off.

Well if molecular nanotechnology ever takes off at least this method becomes more affordable. :p

Or, seeing as how some parts of the world are going. Maybe FinCen regulation will require everyone to have their BTC Private key implanted. :-)

haha this is sort of genius ... can you imagine a message that was released or decoded 1 year after you die ... 'look inside your diamond there is the key to my btc wallet'

... then you go through a messy, bitter divorce and the lawyer convinces your ex-wife and child to team up to steal your bitcoins ...

You're idea is a very good one. Very good when you consider what Mike has done with his Casascius password software (which lets you share a private key that is password protected with a password of your choosing).

You should PM Casascius if you are serious about making money with this idea. He's got experience. I'd buy one of these...when my wife and I were married, we got a 3D photo of us engraved in a clear plastic cube. It would work well for provate keys. We were married over 8 years ago, so the technology ain't new.

Will do- thanks for the tip!

It wasn't me! :-)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/10043957/Police-swoop-on-suspects-in-international-Belgian-diamond-heist-gang.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/10043957/Police-swoop-on-suspects-in-international-Belgian-diamond-heist-gang.html)

You can encode your private key in a vial containing a message printed in DNA using Craig Vener's ASCII->DNA for about 5 hundred bucks. Seems a lot cooler.

But if Bitcoin explodes and is worth nothing, you're left with a chunk of worthless DNA.

In this case- you're still left with a perfectly valuable diamond.

You cannot stress enough the durability of diamond as a material. Laser-engraved private key on diamond is likely to survive pretty much anything.
I think this idea might work if Bitcoin grows more, and if it is marketed to the right group. Right now, you target would be wealthy (who appreciate diamonds) nerds (who appreciate Bitcoin), which is a rather slim intersection.

or if the reverse is true, you might create the most valuable diamond in the world

currently the highest is worth about 400mm usd

So I think you should allow the person to split the entropy.

Example

Bob buys Alice an engagment ring, but he wants it to be more valuable then Brittney's so he puts in 1000 BTC.  He also wants it to hold value.

A private key with 120 bits of entropy is created.

50 bits of entropy goes into the ring.

25 bits of entropy is a shared secret.  Maybe the name of where you met.

25 bits of entropy you keep safe.

20 bits of entropy is destroyed as a proof of work.

This way if the ring is stolen there is protection.

Also in the unlikely event that alice cheats on bob, the coins can be regained and she only keeps the diamond.  (seems a fair deal?)

If bob dies he leaves his 25 bits in his will and alice will be able to claim the coins ...

Question about the idea :)

Sounds like the engraved encrypted key will be too small to be able to read with the human eye? So in addition to the diamond and the password to decrypt the key, what would be required to access the btc account - ? A magnifying glass? a Microsope? Thanks and sorry if I missed the answer in a previous post!

If cut in a certain way, you could just shine light through it and project the key onto the wall. :)

One of the interesting things I has learned along the way is that diamonds are shiny precisely because of the way they are cut. The light all internally reflects to bounce back out. If you were to cut it so that light could pass straight through, it would not be sparkly at all. Just clear.

It's a neat idea being able to shine a laser through it, although the same cut that would probably make this possible would also probably make it not worth very much.

A strong loupe should work. The engraving is small, but not so small that a person couldn't check it in the shop on the spot to be sure.

Just a quick update. It looks like the smallest stone we can engrave is 3mm round .1 ct diamond, which is quite small. Perfect for hiding! :-)

Got any free samples? :P

Can you locate someone who grows their own gems? There is a company embedding keepsakes into stones, locks of hair, etc. Get a tie in with them to engrave.

And losing.