Bitcoin Forum

Apologies if this has already been a topic--I searched for "solar" and didn't see anything like this. I am proposing to accept BTC for solar systems/kits.

Solar power has never been cheaper, battery technology has been improving as well. Bitcoin will eventually take over. I think merging my favorite ideas makes perfect sense.

Full disclosure: I have a very modest amount of LTC, and an even smaller amount in BTC (total for both < USD 1000 for now). I don't know if my bosses will go for this, but if there is sufficient interest, I'm going to strenuously insist we accept BTC for solar packages. I am very confident I can persuade them based on preliminary conversations. Assuming they do:

You may have the option of purchasing fully installed systems, depending on where in the eastern USA you are. At the very least we can send kits anywhere in the world to be installed by you or another professional.

Here are some numbers I've run from the Mining Calculator (http://tpbitcalc.appspot.com/), and I would love some feedback on these. I've rounded up to assume a 1000W system (I see the Avalons are 620W (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison)). 1000Wx24h uptime x 365 days = 8,760 kwh. This assumes 100% uptime for the year.

The amount of kwh your solar system produces depends on your latitude, shading, etc. PVWatts (http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/version1/) is a great resource for figuring this out in the USA. For instance, let's take New York City (http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/version1/US/New_York/New_York_City.html) (not exactly the best for solar at 41 degrees latitude, but ok). If you install a 7kw system (put 7 in the "DC Rating (kW):" field), you should end up with a little over 8500 kwh produced per year. That is extremely close to paying for 100% uptime on Avalons yearly with free solar energy.

Before I go further, I want to gauge people's interest. If we accept BTC as payment for solar systems/kits, who is interested? Based on the current USD/BTC price ($113), the 7kw grid-tied system mentioned above would be around BTC270 installed. The final price depends on where you are and what you want of course--prices will differ around the US/world. Escrow transactions would be welcomed.

*edit to adjust price from BTC250 to BTC270--I apologize, in my haste I didn't take freight, etc. into account.

I'm interested in all things solar. Sadly I do not live in a house or on land I can utilize.

I do support such projects however, and while I don't necessarily think that Solar is a great investment in terms of "making mining free", it is a good long term investment.

Hope some peeps take you up on it!

I loved the idea till I saw the price of the system.

Is BTC270 means 270 bitcoins?
I should think so because $28K means 28K us dollar,
so any idea how many years of electricity bill it will pay off with this amount of money? ???

well, if it means 270 USD in terms of bitcoin, then it's my bad.

$30k for a system that will save you $1500 per year (at current electric prices in New York).

I don't see how that makes sense at all.

Will the system even last the 20 years it will take to pay itself off?

Most solar panels are warrantied for 30 years. Some will last much longer. How are you calculating annual savings? What is your cost per KwH in NY?

Solar is a long-term investment. Not a get rich quick scheme...

I'll just put this here:

Mining on solar panels makes no more sense than buying solar panels and not mining - you get the same net benefit either way.

That said, I think it would be awesome if your company accepted BTC for solar panel systems/kits!  The more options available to spend BTC, the more it pushes BTC forward.

You guys keep looking at it the wrong way. It's not just about using BTC to support mining ventures. It's about using BTC to pay for real-life objects and services. Once you got an economy around BTC, the volatility might decrease.

The panels are not just for mining. It's to decrease the amount you pay for electricity, to do your part for the environment, and get some tax credits. I'm not too sure how the tax credit and BTC thing will work.

Stop being so narrow minded.
E  x  p  a  n  d  your views.

Yes, BTC270 is 270 bitcoins for that system. Solar power isn't the cheapest at the moment, but look at it this way: you're paying for your electricity for the next few decades up front. How many decades is a question of how much the price is now, plus how much will the price increase in 20-30 years.

Yes, the system is warrantied for 25 years on the panels, 10 years for the inverter. Unless you get panels with a microinverter attached (highly recommended for greater efficiency), which have a 25 year warranty for both.

The state of NY and federal government offer significant tax credits and rebates (some of which depend on your utility provider in NY state).

The tax credit and rebate question is a very important one, and I frankly don't have the answer for it yet. The 30% federal credit cuts down the break-even time, and state incentives can bring it down to 4-7 years to pay back. How would the credit work if someone used CAD to pay for a system--would they still be eligible? I will do some research, but that may be a question for a lawyer or CPA. I would love to bring this idea to fruition where I work, so thank you guys for your input on this.

This is an interesting suggestion however the cost of solar panels are VERY expensive.

Buying it now, it might seem profitable however down the line, solar panels will be cheaper and cheaper as well as getting larger and larger.

How long do you have to mine before you're out of the negatives is the real question.

Also wanted to point out that a lot of Power utility companies will start charging a higher cost per Kw/hr once you go over a certain amount for the month or they have a tiered system. A 1,000watt/hr load 24/7 will put you at 720kw/hr's per month which generally is much more than a typical residential account uses and will probably put you into a more expensive rate bracket for part of that.

You might want to look into federal and state rebates and/or incentives to attract more customers seeing as how the average cost of installations are between $4-$5/watt.  When buying that much power you're cost per watt for the panels can get under $1/watt which makes it 1/4th of your total and a lot of people probably find that hard to stomach regardless of how you try to justify it.  That's like buying a $150 subwoofer, a $300 amp and then having a total install cost of $2,000 including the sub and amp... From what I read there are federal rebates up to 30% which would effectively lower your charge from ~$30,000 to ~$20,000.

Anyway your cost is inline with the national average, at a minimum the panels at $7,000 and an inverter for $3,000-$5,000 leaves $18,000-$20,000 for the rest of the materials and installation. Personally I'm an electrician so I'd just buy the stuff and install it myself.  Even if I wasn't, I'd rather buy the materials and pay a local electrician say $4,000 and be done for half of your cost. If I paid an electrician to do it their payment would require passing an electrical inspection by the county or city and the power company and they would have to guarantee their workmanship in writing for some length of time which I would have a lawyer draw up.

Honestly I don't think you or your company should decide to accept bitcoins as payment only if you think you can get people to sign on for installations or purchases. You have to look at the number of people actually interested in solar, then the people who actually have the money for solar, then the people who have the means for solar ie a place they can actually install it, then you have to factor in the number of those people who use bitcoin and then those who would be willing to pay with it.  All of that within your installation area and you are probably talking about a very small group of people and that's only looking at it from a potential which still leaves the actual finding of these people!  If you and your company think bitcoin is a good idea, set it up so you can accept payment, advertise that you accept it as payment and go from there.  Is it a lot of work to set things up to accept them?  The flip side is that you'll probably generate more interest in bitcoin from customers wanting to know what it is once you tell them you accept bitcoin, maybe offer them an incentive to pay with bitcoin.

Good stuff here MeltManBob, thank you. The price I mentioned would be for a turnkey system--we also sell just the materials for folks like you who want to do the work themselves or hire local. We are very flexible and I'm hoping to add more flexibility by getting them to accept BTC. You raise some good points though about getting the word out. As others have mentioned, finding the answer to the question of incentive applicability for BTC users is key.

FYI for those looking to do their own research on federal, state, and local solar and renewable energy incentives, this is the most comprehensive and up-to-date listing I know of: http://www.dsireusa.org/ (http://www.dsireusa.org/)


Great points here. One note about the price of panels: computer geeks like me tend to think in terms of Moore's Law, where the speed of processors double every 18 months. In the solar industry the "equivalent" is Swanson's Law, which says the price of PV cells drops 20% for every doubling of industry capacity. This means the price historically hasn't dropped as fast as the price of other technologies, e.g. processors. Unless there is some sort of game-changing technology discovered, we're likely to see that trend continue in the long term. In the short term, prices may actually go up in the US because of new restrictions on panels imported from other countries.

Solar is a lot like Satellite TV. When DIRECTV first came out, it was the cool, high-end thing to have. "Get rid of cable" was part of the pitch, but it was no cheaper, and was about $1000.00 just for installation (plus the equipment, which was quite expensive at first). People got it cause they wanted it, not really because of any savings. But then, it started getting cheaper. Eventually, it became a commodity that they install for free, and basically give away the equipment.

Solar energy, to me, is in that early phase. There are a bunch of companies that will install systems, but it is pretty new still, and they can charge a premium. Plus, the equipment is still pretty expensive too. I just had an estimate done for a Solar Hot Water system--JUST the hot water system, and it was 13k. I laughed. But I know that in the not to distant future, there will be huge breakthroughs in the panels, and eventually there will be a DIY Solar Home Conversion kit at Home Depot.

US$28K for 7kW system installed...holy shit that is a mark up and a half....

Current wholesale prices for panels are around the US$0.6 / W and 5kW inverters are around $2.5k a pop.

Given the relatively simple costing of panels and inverter (minus racking and DC cables) a 5kW is around $5.5k. Chuck in racking and cables for a generous $3K to total $8.5K. Then some paperwork and admin to round out to $10K.

This leaves $18.5K to cover labour and overheads and still leave a HUGE profit without even hitting Govt rebates.

I think the industry needs to reel in its overheads.

You could alos include self install off grid systems so as to reduce connection fees / admin overheads.

Having said all this, I am also floating a similair idea in Australia with a collegue who owns a solar system company however we are targeting off Grid connections with much reduced prices through overhead reductions being passed on.

GL in the venture and viva la BTC / LTC

DirectVoltage.com accepts bitcoin, litecoin and ppcoin

Ronald Regan destroyed Solar's potential when he cut the tax credit instantly in his era, putting huge firms out of business. So its not new, it is not getting much cheaper as it should be. Im not putting the idea down. Im just very pissed off about we are not investing in it more than we should.

Cranky4u - Thank you for the well wishes, and allow me to reciprocate the sentiment.   ;D  One quick note, you mentioned pricing info for a 5kw system, where I was using a 7kw system as an example. There is some profit built into the pricing--we all need to make a living--but my goal is to offer some sort of BTC discount to encourage its adoption and usage (both solar and Bitcoin). My sense is a lot of this hinges on the incentives being applicable for a buyer using a cryptocurrency.

That's awesome directvoltage is accepting those coins, I hope my company will follow suit.

Very true sentiment...one should also not forget the differences in location for generation and tax incentives...all the best in bring solar / hybrid to the BTC world

I think you're going to have to change your pricing model / plan of attack when it comes to selling in BTC. You need smaller kit. I doubt you'll be able to sell installation given who the current users of btc are.

Personally I might buy some product if you ever accept bitcoin - but I'd want it to be somewhat modular where I can choose the wattage I need and set it all up myself.

Honestly, you'd probably do better simply shipping all the parts of a panel for some lower price and letting people buy as many or few as they need.

AKA in this community, if we need solar we just buy b-grade cells for a buck a watt and assemble ourselves =P

Ha, point taken, thank you. Luckily, we can sell any of the components separately. The example I used was for a whole system being completely installed--if someone just wants to buy a factory made panel we sell those for around a buck a watt anyway, plus freight.

I think you are absolutely correct about starting with component sales (panels, batteries, inverters, etc.). I may have been overly optimistic to think someone would be willing to purchase a whole solar system with BTC right away  :D . Plus I have a small post count and am a complete unknown to everyone on here. Earning positive feedback from members by completing hassle-free transactions will help build my credibility with everyone. As I said in my initial post, escrow would be welcomed.

As far as putting together a solar panel from b-grade cells, I've looked into doing that in the past as a weekend project, but the pricing of cells, plus getting a soldering iron and solder, plus the wood or aluminum to build a frame, plus the plexiglass (or whatever) cover to protect the cells, plus the wire and special outdoor waterproof connectors--it was easier and less expensive to just buy a whole panel.

Depending on your location and local zoning ordinances you may be able to supplement the solar power with wind power. giving you the ability to generate energy at night and overcast days.

Bright

I can't find it right now but I read an article recently on Physorg.com that talked about the cost of purchase and installation in Germany compared to the US.  The cost of materials didn't differ much, the extra cost for us comes from all the bureaucratic red tape - licensing, permits, approvals and on and on.  As I stated, the estimate is right inline with the national averages for that size of a system.  Yes you can go out and buy the parts yourself but what are you going to do when you tie it in to your house? Are you going to run all new, dedicated electrical wiring so that you have 2 outlets where you used to have 1 and label one for your grid and the other for the power company? Last time I checked you have to get the power company to sign off on your installation if you're just tying it to your current electrical system which is consequently tied to their system. 

On top of that, what are you going to do if you ever have an issue with your house and your home owners insurance finds out and drops you for not having a licensed professional install the system, have the necessary permits approved etc.?  You can mikey mouse your system all day long, even if you know what you're doing but just be aware that you might be setting yourself up for a lot more costs than just a professional installation and possibly even fines, fees etc. from your city or county.

$.60/watt is on the extreme low end, I only found prices that low when you bought enough panels to equate to 5-7kw of power so thinking that you're going to buy a quality (read quality AND good warranty) panel for that price is probably unrealistic.  Finding them for $1/watt is still probably a stretch for quality and low quantity.  If you want a good price, install a 40kw system which can drop your cost per watt down to $2/watt but for small installations you're going to pay more per watt.

For anyone thinking of even attempting to do this completely DIY as in buy the solar cells, the tabbing wire, solder them together, build the frames, encapsulate them etc. GOOD LUCK! You can do it but by the time you get done it will probably be more expensive just for the materials not to mention your time spent, losses from the learning curve, losses from picking the wrong materials, the headache of learning on your own dime and the worry that your product won't last even 5 years.  Even if you only screw up one panel and then only have one more panel that screws up in 5 years, you've already brought your cost per watt up significantly even without counting your "free" labor.  I'm not sure anyone here was contemplating it but I just thought I'd share, I've looked into it, researched the different encapsulation materials and methods which is where your longevity come from and there is no cut and dry answer as to what's the best to use and it's still more expensive than pre-made panels. 

If you want solar but can't stomach the retail installation cost, find yourself a local electrician or general contractor who might be able to do it cheaper than the main guys but do it RIGHT (read permitting, power co sign off's etc.)  Don't risk your house, don't risk your install, the bureaucracy sucks here but you're not going to beat it by being super cheap. 

One alternative you DIYers might consider is buying the stuff and installing it yourself if you think you're capable but run dedicated electrical lines to a particular room for your mining and that way you bypass the power co sign off and possibly some permitting. I would also advise a free standing installation in the yard as opposed to the roof to try and avoid some serious permits.  Depending on how much of a liberal nazi loving area you live in you might get issues about "unsightliness"...

Check for federal, state and local rebates and incentives as Cochese suggested, this can offset a large portion of the cost and also check with your power company about them buying your extra electricity. They don't do that where I live but some places do which might be an incentive to over-size your install to get a faster ROI. Sorry for the rambling :)

I've done some of that myself - the biggest cost really is the frame (since a diy guy isn't manufacturing 2000 of them) and just knowing how exactly to do it correctly.

That being said - put together a couple packages along the following lines:

grid tied inverter + panel + wiring kit + mounting hardware

or

battery packs + wiring + (maybe some options on electronics grade inverters?)

Make sure you have a kit that starts small (100w?) and can grow to (500w?) just by adding panels. offer packages like that in bitcoin and you'll get buyers all day. Advantage of you doing it this way, is you can get exact numbers on shipping costs and packaging worked into the price for each kit.

Also if you're actually selling panels close to a buck a watt... point me at the company, I'll buy with fiat in the future and save myself the labor of assembly. The same should hold true for btc - if you're company is an actual existing business... then there should be no problem following the normal sales procedure and just accepting payment via bitpay or bitcoins directly. Those of us with bitcoin incomes won't bat an eyelash if you're company is a traditional business transitioning into accepting bitcoin... no escrow needed.
 

One thing to consider as well is that you can get a tax credit for purchasing solar. Paying in Bitcoin could harm your eligibility for a tax credit, unless the receipt is denominated in USD. I'm no tax expert, but just putting this out there as something to consider.  :-\

The red tape is annoying, but I can see the purpose of a lot of it. The idea is to get people to do low cost/no cost upgrades to their home--like getting a programmable thermostat or being more aware of "vampire" loads (flat panel TVs, Blu-Rays, coffee makers, microwaves--basically anything with a clock on it unnecessarily). I also read something about how Germany cut out a lot of their red tape to allow more people got solar installed on their house. This is one instance of the US federal gov't having less red tape than some of the individual state governments.


I love these ideas, thank you very much. If I had to size either an off-grid or a hybrid system for someone, the size of the inverter necessary to power their loads would dictate the number of panels and batteries needed for their system.

In very general terms, here's how it would work for a hybrid system where I live (in the eastern US): I decide which of the outlets in my house I want to serve using my solar panels and batteries. Ideally I determine a "comfort room," something with a few lights, maybe the plugs with tv/cable modem or dsl (comfort and communications). The big questions is: do I need a window air conditioning unit? Once I decide, I get an electrician to wire a sub-panel next to my main service panel. This sub-panel is hooked to an inverter/charger unit. This unit charges my battery bank in one of two ways: (a) the batteries are charged from the solar panels when possible (aka the sun is shining), or (b) the inverter/charger unit will charge the batteries from the grid if solar power is unavailable and the batteries get too low.

This way I save on electricity bills each month by powering some/most of my house with the electricity stored in the batteries generated from solar panels, while at the same time providing backup power to my household during times of grid outages. It's a very popular package (and much less expensive).

Each household has its own questions but if it's me:
1500 sq ft row house, front faces south
Back room is fully insulated on a slab of concrete with only east and north facing windows
Cable modem and wifi located in adjacent closet, refrigerator very close in next room...

This back room is the easiest room to cool in the summer, so it would be a no-brainer to hook up the sub-panel to the outlets here.
Six batteries would be overkill for my needs--I could probably get away with 2. Knowing that, I would likely go with 3 or 4 just to be safe. Ideally I want to have 3 or more days of electricity in case there is no grid power. Solar panels will help replenish what's in the batteries, but for every kwh discharged, I need to put back between 1.1 and 1.35 kwh (in other words, 110% to 135% of what was expended, depending on the battery).

I would need to do a projected usage for each appliance, but if I had a window A/C unit running, my system wouldn't last very long. To be perfectly honest, when the grid goes down, it's all about conservation and making sure I don't let my batteries get too depleted--otherwise they won't come back. My refrigerator is my primary concern, but having a tv/radio in an extended emergency situation can make all the difference.


tl;dr Hybrid solar/battery systems are better and cheaper, but require more planning. Designate a comfort room for when the power goes out.