Bitcoin Forum

Dear Community,

i found a channel/group where they pump and dump altcoins (https://t.me/AltcoinPumping)
I joined it, but I saw, there are over 16.000 members investing in a mentioned coin (sometimes more than 800 Bitcoins) and I have a little bit fear now, because it´s so big, that I think, it is not allowed. :o

Is here a expert or something who can tell us, if "Altcoin pump and dump" is illegal?
And how is the tax handeled with pumping profits?

I hope, you can help me, I searched in other boards and in different topics, but no one had a "save" answer. ??? ??? ???

Greetings, Nacho

It's not Illegal, as any Cryptocoin exchanges aren't regulated.  But in joining one, you probably have a better chance of losing alot of money than gaining, since the guys at the top always make sure they get out first, then they give the signal and everyone else scrambles to make it out alive.

Sure it´s not illegal? On stock markets I think it´s not allowed as far as I know. Could Bittrex delete my account when I join it?

If you are afraid of illegality just pick up a phone and call your local police. they are there to tell you what is legal and what is illegal. None of them is here. And every place on world have different laws and rules.

Yeah, I know, right? You should join a Pump and Dump group and wait for them to announce the coin that is going to be pumped. From that point on: dont buy that coin but go and look at it's 7 hour or 24 hour history and see since what time it is rising. Most of the time, 4 to 8 hours before the pump, the group 'leaders' have already pumped the price up with all of their buyings. They will just put their sell orders a bit above what it is by the time of annoucning and then announce the pumping coin. Making you guys buy all of THEIR sell orders. And after that, it's too late. The price is way too high for what you bought and you will only lose.

Why do I have a feeling that you are actually advertising that channel.There is a way you could have directed your question without actually putting the link up there because what you have done is just to promote this social menace in the crypto-world because the more people join, the more calamity will be done to the crypto-world. Although, its not illegal but its immoral because it means that innocent people will be losing their investment due to that while some people will be rejoicing at that.

Hi Vivisector999,

here is my review from the last 2 dumps:
My first dump was not so nice. I tested it with 0.04 Bitcoins. The main problem was, that I was way to slow and my WLAN at home ist not the best. Also I was new in Bittrex, so I was not so sure with the handling in buying altcoins.
For the second dump I decided to do it with my company computer. The computers are very fast und have top wifi connections. So I was able to buy the coin directly after the "publishment" within about 10-12 seconds. I tried it with 0.03 and made a profit of 0.009 BTC. I think I will follow this theme and I will see, if It just was a "lucky punch" or if it´s some longterm-profit-business.

Greetings,
Nacho

I doubt it's illegal, however one of the issues I can see presenting itself is that as the user count increases more people will start to lose out and eventually some will end up losing money as a result.

I also agree with what is said before in this thread, the owners of the Telegram group have most likely already bought a size-able amount just to sell it off. It's almost impossible to believe that this is not the case.

A fair use from the owners would be to use something like:


This guarantees a repeatable output given the same input hash. The input hash would be the block number at time x/y/z, this way we can be 100% sure the owners have no idea which coin will be chosen and everyone can repeat the same thing with their own information.

what do you mean about delete bittrex account
youre bittrex deleted account because you pump and dump coin
pump and dump coin in market is not problem if you have big money

yea and the 16,000 members is a perfect quantity of people
to pump the coin to the "leaders" sell price and then they are left
holding bags of overpriced coins. Such a scam im sure there are
others apart from the "leaders" who are able to make gains also.

That's definitely true.  Stock market manipulation via pump & dump is illegal...but crypto?  I haven't seen any legislation yet, and certainly no enforcement.  The only people who ever get prosecuted are straight up scammers.  Ponzi scheme scammers and the like, like pirateat40.  Remember him?  I don't think the SEC has written any rules whatsoever about bitcoin or any other crypto.  It's strange, honestly.

no regulations..no illegal doings

Till exchanges decide about regulating, but not in their interest, as they always get money

This is like "penny stocks" so is it OK in the New York stock exchange?
If so then it should be fine here right?
Because after all we are investors backing companies.

I dunno bout you guys but I am looking forward to my annual stock dividends.
The quarterly report was good.

It can't be illegal anyway because crypto companies run with full transparency where every dollar is reported to the share holders.

Relax.. Don't call your investment manager just yet!

OH and I won't ask how old you are.. Or...
If you paid your exchange taxes yet.. Deadline is looming!

I thought he was following the pumper group, and the coins he followed were in Bittrex. Anyone can enter and trade in Bittrex. So far there has been no case "delete acount" is very strange.  ;D

as far as legality goes any form of market manipulation is completely against the law and considered illegal in many countries and even if a country doesn't have any clear rules about it, be sure that they consider it illegal if it comes to court.

but as far as joining them and profit making goes, don't do it because the only person making profit will be the owner of the group not you. they earn the profit from your gullibility.

Anti Money Laundering (AML) - FINRA.org (http://www.finra.org/industry/aml)


So...

Has the centralized government complaint exchange you all been using that you gave your picture ID to following AML law ?

Yup.. it's why you get "verified"  :D

So you mean, it´s not illegal, because you must not veriy at Bittrex?

I't's not illegal definitely and I agree with you that the one that created this group are just using people to make a huge profit,they dump while you pump, they accumulate early then dump when they announce that they are pumping so it's usually the other way around,it's like go buy my bags of shits.

if it's illegal or not doesn't really matter as long as there is no proof that you actually were in this group. I mean if just buying a coin when the market price raises would be suspicious how could a normal person avoid to get suspected?

But even for those who get ripped off I have no pity. I mean you invest in a highly volatile kind of currency like bitcoin than you go further and change the btc to another "currency" which actually can't and probably will never be spent on any good but has the market cap. of may be a small village, what could one expect to happen?

The only shame is that it's inhibit a growth in reputation to the whole cryptomarket. I mean, imagine someone new and uncertain to cryptos enters this board and everything he sees is some fraud warning for nearly each possibility it could happen. I don't think this person will get a trustworthy image of cryptos and probably decide not to us it... but off course, when i hear of a large groupe like that those people don't even expect the cryptos to arrive in real world...

Exactly, unfortunately people see past it or they decide to use it anywhere in an attempt to make some gains.

But when you look at the last pump-stats of the channel, there is no pre dump in the charts, strange

Not just big organized groups and trade exchanges, but even individuals who are trading altcoins should make yourself aware of the legal risks of aiding and abetting said manipulation groups...according to this article:

http://www.coindesk.com/the-cftcs-not-so-hidden-message-traders-beware/

I hope they are or become illegal very soon. The owners of these groups are taking easy money off of new people that are coming into crypto and don't know how these groups work.

About bittrex they can't really ban because they have no proof you are part of the pump group you can just say you simply wanted to buy the coin. About the groups i don't really know how it can illegal as bitcoin isn't regulated so there are no rules how you should use it but i do see some groups posting that they have a backup and a legal team. God knows but if you are making profit why do you care just enjoy.

This is illegal as hell already. A decent prosecutor could make a good case for financial fraud. In normal markets regulated by the SEC, it's pretty much illegal to do anything but speculate. Cornering the market, IE buying up everything on a market so you can manipulate the price. And using FUD or manipulating the price of an asset to alter confidence is just as illegal. Most people get in trouble for insider trading, which leads me too..


This is so easy to prove. They would simply audit Polo for trades, accounts and IPs. After they match everything up, they would contact you, and interview you. Unless everyone has their story really, really straight (like why everyone decided to trade at the same time), someone is catching a charge.

Do not fuck with the IRS/SEC. You will catch your issue :)

Yeah seems like
Just like to say that anyone advertising pump groups should be banned. THESE ARE SCAMS. The people that run it choose a coin thats low and put their money in so it pumps. THEN they announce thru their telegram app what the coin is and to PUMP. within 2 mins they then SELL and DUMP what they bought leaving everyone else scammed.

You cannot prevent them from doing it and it is not illegal, we should be smart and not to fall for that kind of trap.
In the world of crypto there are a lot of ways to make a fortune but we need to be smart enough to get on the right timing so you can
make money at the right time and eventually grow it more as you are getting more aggressive.

No one can prevent them but pumping and dumping coins somewhat needs to be illegal in cryptoworld all over the world. There are laws about money laundering in US that states that it prohibits money laundering through other informal value systems, and cryptocurrency can be considered as an inform value system. Therefore, crypto pump and dump can be considered illegal on US at least and those doing it on US can be subjected by law.

LOL the police definitely dont know.  local police are fucking morons.  if you want a reliable answer you call the right lawyer.

that being said, i think pump n dumps are legal in crypto even tho they're illegal in stocks.  theres just no laws for it yet.. even if they make em, kinda hard to enforce with VPNs n stuff.

You could probably try collecting the identities of the key members if possible, and wait patiently till cryptos are regulated, and contact them that YOU KNOW! :P

I have read that banks are actually involved in some of the pump and dumps; at least in the stock market, etc.

Of course it's not illegal because the exchange where the pumps and dumps have got approval from the government where they work.

This is free market not a regulated stocks market.
so there is no problem about legality. Its all legal.
You can pump or dump all coins feel free :)

Maybe, it's not regulated yet. But form my perspective, pump and dump group can damage the crypto community. They only make a profit for themselves. I've been joined some Pump and dump group, and there is no positive impact for may crypto future.   

Absolutely legal. But if you do not have experience, you may lose your money due to the signals from these groups. Be careful that these groups made for speculation may harm you.
I dont use them and im feelin safe :)

Ofcourse its legal in the crypto market.You can pump and dump all coins feel free.If you are earning money from it enjoy it.

The answer to the question regarding legality will depend on the jurisdiction and will be different for different countries, but I do think in most countries this kind of action will attract the attention of the Regulators.  CFTC in the US, for example, has already called out this and have set up a bounty for the whistle blowers.

Link - Blow the whistle on pump-and-dump schemers (http://www.cftc.gov/idc/groups/public/@customerprotection/documents/file/customeradvisory_pumpdump0218.pdf)