Bitcoin Forum

Before read: Sorry for my Sitting Bull english proficiency. If you don’t understand something, tell me in the comments.

Bitcoin and Uruguayans are in trouble.

Our government is forcing us to be inside the banks system, everybody have to have a bank account and receive their salary in there, it's illigal to receive the payment outside the bank system. They named it "financial inclusion" as a social program, but people here say "financial seclusion" or "obligatory bancarization law", and that really is.
Every business will have to accept credit/debit card, no matter if they are small (micro) business, forcing them to accept debit/credit cards, paying the fees without modify the price, also they have to rent the POS and pay the connection apart, that’s impossible for small sales.
The worst thing is that every 10+/- years there is a banking crisis here, and money magically “disappears” (look for 2002 crisis), if we have all the money in the banks, what will happen in the next bank run ?

This is being the government agenda, as I see:
1- First they begun encouraging to use the debit cards in the media.
2- They allowed people to buy more things outside the country without to pay taxes, but only using Uruguayans visa/master credit/debit cards, because that, a lot of people out of the bank system, asked pre-paid debit cards. Obviously, the commerce criticized that. Then the government made restrictions, gradually, they reduced the amounts and frequencies to buy abroad, but the commerce persist, that’s when they achieved their next goal: control EVERY personal packages entering to the country, also,  if a mail is a little thick, the customs inspect it too. Bye privacy.
3- The violence is growing fast, more and more drugs are entering in the country, specially crack, a drug that almost didn't exist before this politicians were elected. In 2009 the president realized 1500 prisoners, the excuse was that the prisons were too overcrowded, saying they selected the least dangerous prisoners, they lied, violence skyrocketed.
So, when the robberies increased, specially in the gas stations, they made mandatory to trade accepting only credit cards at night and recommended citizens to use debit/credit cards for their “safety”. Now they want to edict the mandatory use of credit cards or digital payments systems to pay taxis.
Note: Uruguay is one of the least violent countries in S. America, yet.
Also they are installing cameras everywhere, thousands! but that's another story.
4- They reduced the VAT but only for who purchase using debit/credit cards.
5- Now they made the mandatory bankarization law. Everybody has to get paid via bank accounts, no exceptions. No matter if the person is poor and the closest city with an ATM is 80km far.
6- All business will have to accept credit card payments, do not matter quantities or if it's a little kiosk in a poor neighborhood.
7- The online markets are modifying their systems, for example mercadolibre.com.uy (It’s like the uruguayan ebay) they were famous for the purchases and sales made from person to person, who could agree any payment method, including cash, but the government pushed them to use only in their payment system, similar to PayPal, but allowing the sellers to withdraw the money only through their personal bank account, even if you want to sell small used things.
We can’t rent or buy things like a house, land, car, or something for more than 5,000 dollars (If I remember well) outside the banks.
8- Suppression of paper money.
Guess who is behind this sh*t ... Rothschilds! The Uruguayan Julie Rothschild is one of the project drivers in the private sector, she wants to eradicate the paper money. Do you know what all this means? Bye Freedom. Bye Bitcoin. Source: http://www.ferrere.com/novedades/noticias/expertos-discutieron-alcance-de-la-ley-de-inclusion-financiera

So, 1 to 2% (or more?) of the Uruguayan GDP will go to banksters, in addition to other problems like a big brother government.
There are more things to talk, like the fast foreignization of EVERYTHING, including almost every domestic bank, half part of the Uruguayan lands, etc.
Meanwhile... for the international media, Uruguay is a beautiful and peaceful social liberal paradise. #rollingeyes#

By now, the Uruguayans are more concerned about the privacy and the disadvantage that represents for small business and to access to ATMs, they need to learn and think much more, yet.
So, we are collecting signatures across the country to stop this law, we need 250,000 signatures (We're 3,5millions inhabitants) to present to the Electoral Court to start a national plebiscite. Most of the Uruguayans agree with the initiative, but it's not easy, most of them are locked in their comfort zones, and we don't have resources or important sponsors supporting us.

This publication is to ask help for the bitcoin community, you know better than anybody about banksters.
Please, comment your ideas of how to publicize and encourage people to sign the petition. Mostly, ideas for how to collect bitcoin donations, and how to make people trust that their donations are safe and will be well used.
Another way to help, It’s sharing this publication in Facebook or anywhere.
I was designated to collect signatures in my city but I want to propose to the group to collect bitcoin donations from bitcoiners around the globe.

The group I collaborate is https://www.facebook.com/noalabancarizacionobligatoria
I'm Admin of the facebook Uruguayan bitcoin community in https://www.facebook.com/BitcoinUruguay you can send me messages there. My Twitter is @elgabonomas
The group don’t know yet, this will be an idea to propose to them. Or made it by my own, joining more people

PLEASE, help my country, in any way that you can. We have to fight!
ALL comments are welcome.



Know more:
https://www.bbvaresearch.com/en/publicaciones/financial-inclusion-in-uruguay/ (english)
http://www.uypress.net/auc.aspx?78591,152 (spanish)
http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/reabren-debate-inclusion-financiera-parlamento.html (spanish)
http://www.elpais.com.uy/economia/noticias/escribanos-piden-cambios-ley-inclusion.html (spanish)
http://www.radiomontecarlo.com.uy/2017/06/28/nacionales/jubilados-buscaran-recolectar-firmas-para-ir-contra-ley-de-inclusion-financiera/ (spanish)

Wow, bud, I'm sorry to hear about this. Sounds like a frustrating time. While it's terrible that you must receive your employment pay (salary) directly to your bank account most people in developed countries already choose this option without issue.

What I didn't see in your comments is any restrictions on what you spend your money on. I know you mentioned a $5000 limit on property purchases, but you didn't say that what you choose to buy is restricted.

You should start saving your salary money by diverting manageable portion to Bitcoin each pay period. Start slowly shifting your wealth to Bitcoin and let it sit there. Obviously you have good reason to do so and you haven't mention any restriction from your government that prevents you from doing so.

---

Asking for "donations" is considered begging and it's severely frowned upon here. I'd consider removing this comment below unless you actually run some charity, in which case you should set up a kickstarter fund for that purpose and advertise it here.

This is not the problem, the problem is to don't have privicy, being regulated, controled and lost the freedom of property. All that bitcoin try to fight.


Everything, whatever I buy/sell from 5000, I have to do it through my bank account. I can buy anything but I lost my privicy and I don't what they could do, with my data and my money. The worst case is if there is a banking run, as allways.

The problem is that there is a great chance that the government will forbid bitcoin, to have control over all the money


Ok, I'll delete it.
Good idea! I'll try to start a kickstarter. Thanks

I had read that Uruguay is called the Switzerland of South America, a progressive society, solid democracy, less corruption, citizens have the right to challenge and change constitutional laws. But like you mentioned for the international media, Uruguay might be a beautiful and peaceful social liberal paradise.

The point I am missing here is bitcoin isn't banned in Uruguay. In Localbitcoins you can find buy/sell through National bank transfer. As far as the banking system exists it would interfere with people's privacy and there is always a possibility of a banking crisis. With the points you mentioned, it looks like the Uruguayan government is trying to build a cashless society which is good.

It's physical money that is behind all the corruption, it should be suppressed, and electronic means of payment should be adopted for a cleaner and better economy.

Start a petition on change.org and if the citizens of Uruguay agree with your sentiments they will sign it, but I can't find a single logic how bitcoin donations are going to be helpful in this scenario. Mind explaining for what purpose these donations would be used for?

HI,
Yes, at least we have democracy, that's why we are collectign signatures. We were "Switzerland of South America" because there was a time when Uruguay were a rich country with bank secret, but those times don't exist anymore, we have good things (compared to S. Amer.) but that's because we had yet better things, now is declining, constantly, this is not product of this government. About we are liberals, maybe we are but we aren't since the government control everything. Soon, they will ban Bitcoin, they want total control and bitcoin don't offer that.
The problem is, as I mentioned, the lost of privacy, being controled by the banks and government. I don't want the 2%, or more, of the GDP going to banksters abroad. Small business having to close because they can't compete with big transnational companies that have agreements with the banks to offer big disccounts using their cards, the small business can't make that kind of agreements. Also, they can't do small sales if they don't have contracts with the banks, because de costs and fees.
I try to don't be conspiparanoic but the Rothschilds are directly in this. Probably they want to use us as a laboratory and example to made the same in the rest of the world, as happen with the marihuana, the ex-president said openly that is a experiment to share with others in the world (like Soros)

The donations, I deleted, I can't ask it in bitcointalk. It's because we have to spend in lot of things like stamped t-shirts, viatics, printing, publicity, etc.

With the way accessing/buying bitcoin works, this is the same reality I deal with in my country. Although even though I know my purchases are being tracked I know that the government's only concern is collecting taxes on investment gains if/when I sell. I have zero concern or fears about any other motivation for my government to know if I own bitcoin or not.

And...once I do own bitcoin the flexibility to move it where I want it sits squarely in my hands. That control exists for you too, you just need to get your local money into Bitcoin.

http://bankingin.com/uruguay.html

I just found this on the internet, it looks like banking in Uruguay has much more privacy than my country, but you live there so the current situation might be different. I guess with 2% of GDP going to outside banks is related to offshore/foreign banks. If privacy is the concern then offshore banks provide:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_secrecy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offshore_bank

Getting donations for collecting 250,000 signatures is understandable. Petition for banking secrecy/a decentralized government/if possible make bitcoins legal. Good luck with that.

http://bankingin.com/uruguay.html

I just found this on the internet, it looks like banking in Uruguay has much more privacy than my country, but you live there so the current situation might be different. I guess with 2% of GDP going to outside banks is related to offshore/foreign banks. If privacy is the concern then offshore banks provide:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_secrecy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offshore_bank

Getting donations for collecting 250,000 signatures is understandable. Petition for banking secrecy/a decentralized government/if possible make bitcoins legal. Good luck with that.
[/quote]

It's not really like that anymore. G20 tagged uruguay in the "grey list" for money laundring, but people here say this was planed by our government to have more control. Now, we are being controled, more and more, specially now that they made that law of mandatory bancarization. But for foreign companies they are soft. A lot of international companies use tax free zones here and banks have offices in those zones too, that make more difficult to inspect the foreigners, they launder money and do whatever they want without pay taxes, like UPM that have a hugh plant that proccess wood for cellulose contaminating rivers and planting monoculture of Pines or Eucalyptus, if you see from google earth, you can see big forests, but all are artificial, we say "green deserts" because there is no life there, no animals, no birds, no insects, nothing, just silence, and they don't pay taxes for do that mess.
We are a colony.

About the 2 % I'm talking about the fees the banks charge to use their services, like credit/debit cards of uruguayans any time we buy or sell something. Most of the banks are foreigners, so, all the money go to the banksters abroad.

I will dont give up :)

Honestly, Bitcoin is not really that powerful as a tool to go head-to-head with any government. Any government can easily declare Bitcoin to be illegal and then generally that can be the end of its possible massive and mainstream adoption. We have to understand that the power really belong to the government though it might be stealing it from the people.

This scenario can be bad for the people of Uruguay but am sure that people will go along with the government, of course. Going against can be a very expensive thing to do. Maybe in the coming months, situation may not really that bad after all and who knows Bitcoin can still be existing alongside this program of the government.

It happened in my country also about 10 years ago with a lot of additional measures.

The results we pretty good as a lot of jobs from the black market went legal and there was a sudden increase in wages as they were payed legally in full.
Not only that but with the heavy introduction of cards a lot of shops we're forced to offer pos sollutions.
And suddenly shops that didn't made a dime in profit for a decade started paying huge amounts.
 


It's 10k euros here and nobody complains.
Except people who deal in shady business.


This is all what this thread is about.
Begging for money.

I don't know Uruguay regulation of Bitcoin, but if any countries trying to control their people on how they deal with Bitcoin is bad for the cryptocurrency industry People who uses bitcoin there should unite and ask the their government to let them use bitcoin freely.

this will eventually spread to everywhere in the world. they tried it in india and look what happened there. including this with the ever increasing, and seemingly voluntary, burning of privacy is not gonna end well for real people. scary times.

scandinavians are robots who do what their government tells them to do. most of the time their governments aren't gonna screw with you.

now extend a 100% cashless and traceable economy to turkey or russia. what happens to you if you're on the wrong side of erdogan or putin? they can take away your ability to receive and spend money. you would be completely helpless if authorities decided they wanted to teach you a thing or two.

Wtf this is like this in every other developed country. I know Uruguay a bit. At least from the news. It is another shithole country which is addicted to stealing both from the gov and the other fellow citizens.

If you don't get paid by your bank account, how the hell the gov would know your salary? Based on which information are they going to tax you? Based on your word? Because It seems the gov don't  want to trust your word!

so you feel 100% comfortable allowing your government potential control over 100% of your expenditure? i know people in normal democratic countries who've had everything stripped from them because of the tax man's mistakes. when they can take away your ability to transact anything it's not gonna look so futuristic after all.

Op, as much I don't like centralised banking system and I hate thieves who run it, at the same time I don't think that Bitcoin will be better payment option than Credit/debit card.
Especially not in its current state, rampant and explosive volatility and negative features like confirmation times and ultra high tx fees.
There is simply no way that society will choose bitcoin over centralized payment processors - bitcoin can't replace fiat, it can complete our economy system by giving people the alternative way.

This is really unfortunate on how government have turn into by forcing everyone against their will and thats what they are doing. But with adequate check and balances, I dont think that will stand only if you have a weak opposition as well as judiciary. But at the same time there is no way government can control cash because it would mean embarking on a futile exercise because how do they now stop those coming from the rural areas who dont even knows how the banking system works from carrying out their transactions?

I feel alone in this world.
If Satoshi is reading the comments, at this time, he would be trying to cut his veins with an Oreo

Well I think there should be some ways around the Uruguayan laws that will put their government in check and kick off against their imposition on the individual citizenry.

Sadly, they don't give a sh*t about rural aereas, they only do it when they need votes.
Maybe, an option is to digitalize money to mobiles and computers. In Uruguay, all children have a notebook gived by government and retired people have the right to ask a free tablet. As I see, they really want to digitalize the fiat money.

  yeah i bet sweden is looking peachy with all those rapefugees!

No ideas to help me?  :-\

I have no issues pertaining your salary being thrown to banks or that all people must have a bank account. It is not something problematic. But the problem lies on the uncontrolled uses of money going in and out of the country. Does your country have no AMLA or the anti-money laundering agency to check big transactions. I hope I can help you with the recent political problems in your country, you may plead to the united states for assistance or to the international human rights commission.

Try to read the ideals of satoshi nakamoto.
This is about banksters.
Thanks, anyway

Unfortunately this is only the beginning. All governments dream about it and over time, under the pretext of combating corruption and terrorism, such a system will be everywhere. Now you can be advised to buy things only for dollars. They are everywhere and they are not tracked through the Bank. If so will do the government think, but I understand wanting to protest there?

Yes,since bitcoin has not been banned in your country.So you could use localbitcoins to convert your bitcoins into cash.The same con dition which your country faces is being faced in india.But government is insisting to do that and has not yet forced.May be they could start to force here after.

That sounds completly like the work of an economical hitman. The shortest way to describe the economical execution is to show how Chicago financial school is advising third world country economics. You need to make economy work for you, present it as a gift and then put a claim into everything for yourself. As addition make the local population for you reworking their economy.

The worst thing is that the normal sittuation is presented by the economical hitmen as a backward, or non developed, like financial diversity and lack of dependance.

This is a similar thing that the USA might start doing, basically eradicating anyone from using high amounts of paper money, gift cards and of course, bitcoin. But in your country's case, it seems much more severe and is already a problem brewing, not speculated.

I think this is a global trend that everyone has to be aware about because everyone is going to be affected by this.

I commend you for trying to spread the word of bitcoin in your country, and this is ultimately what will bring more people to using bitcoin. However, in the end, people themselves have to come to the realisation that bitcoin will be the best solution for this global trend of growing government control for anything anonymous. We as bitcoin holders can only tell them this and that and wish they can listen.

I'm doing it, this sunday I'll organize a meeting for bitcoiners. I'm making a project to "spread the words".
About the signatures, we already have more than 20.000 :) and people are gradually joining us. I'm becoming more optimistic, now.

Sorry to hear that.

That s why you have elections every 4 years. Just show them how you feel next time, there isnt much any of us here can do about it.

The problem is that the banks $UPPORT$ both sides in the elections.

Sorry to hear this about Uruguay.

If I remember correctly, I read that Uruguay is the only other country besides the United States that requires its citizens to potentially pay income tax to Uruguay even if they're living and working in a different country and currency.

The Uruguayan Central Bank president said that Bitcoin could be a Ponzi Scam, when talking about digital Peso.  :D
Source: http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/gente-aferrada-billete-fisico-bergara.html