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I was foolish enough to believe in Libertarianism, despite living in a poor country, I thought yeah maybe the free market can bring people out of poverty.
Maybe earning money and hiring many people, with little or no regulations, low taxes (which I still think are good), and business friendly practices the economy could get better.

Of course I ignored things like pollution, or when big corporations dump toxic chemicals in the river that cause decades of cancers in the future in people. Or when the food is not regulated and you get to eat poisonous GMO crap filled with antibiotics, and pesticide imported from a 3rd world country, yeah that kind of thing...

Do I also need to mention the 2008-2009 bank crisis, when unregulated banking system almost made the entire world collapse.

Or when you have workers working 16 hours a day in a sweatshop barely having anything to eat. Smells like the wonders of Capitalism.

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Don't get me wrong I am not a Communist, in fact I hate the Communists more than the Corporate Elite, after all their track record of murdering 350 million people in the past century can't be outcompeted.

But that doesn't mean that this unregulated Capitalism is good. It could cause just as many problems in the long run: poverty, health crisis, unemployment, low wages, and the list is long....

When I hear Libertarians trying to take away healthcare from people, it makes me angry. Yeah try being unemployed and without healthcare, you are good as dead.

Go live in the streets and scrap from dumpsters, that is what they want poor people to do. No healthcare is a death sentence, literally speaking. If you are unemployed and have no healthcare, you will die pretty soon of any kind of illness.

So after your 16 hour/day sweatshop job destroyed your health, they want to take away your healthcare too, so that you can just roll over and die.

It makes me angry to hear such foolish things. So Libertarianism sucks, I realized this the hard way when I became unemployed. Yes it looks good on paper, but try being unemployed, nobody will give a fuck about you afterwards.  >:(

I think each person has a purpose of his own life. All my life pursuit of good life. There are bachelors, some people worship liberalism ... Depending on your choice. Like I choose bitcoin is the place to grow.

How to stave pollution? Private property. When the lake is owned by everybody, it's upkeep is the responsibility of nobody.

How to stave horrible food? I heard poisoning your food is a good business practice.

How to stave a banking crisis? A banking system rooted in private property ethic - no fractional reserve lending, no bailouts, no central banking.

How to stave long work hours? Capital, investment, productivity, deflation. All products of Capitalism.

Cheers

How are Libertarians taking away healthcare from people? The government doesn't make money, it receives money from taking taxes from people who work. The people who work are the ones paying for healthcare that other people get for free.

The people who get things for free, why don't they pay taxes or work? If you say it is unfair for them to not be provided for for doing nothing, then it is even more not fair for someones tax dollars to be used to give away free anything to people who aren't trying to work.

A social safety net is of course needed so don't get me wrong on what I am saying. There is only a certain amount of money to go around before everyone wanting free stuff cannot be sustained by it.

At its core, libertarianism is simply the application of the non-aggression principle. This means "live and let live." It means freedom for all who uphold libertarianism.

However, when someone harms you or your property, libertarianism becomes a strong defense. After all, you can't uphold someone else in their libertarian freedom if you can't protect your own property.

A good defense is a capable offense. In practice, for libertarians, this is like the people of the USA who own tons of guns and ammo. They are prepared, but they are not aggressive. They are simply ready.

If the government of the land you live in doesn't uphold libertarian principles, then it is a slave-making government.

8)

Property has to be stolen at some point for it to enter the "free" market.  The only reason that you can freely buy property is because someone violently stole the land from native Americans.

While private property is sometimes a necessary practice, it's not the holy grail of freedom that suddenly makes everyone love each other.
Not if people are employed in the public sector, which they already are.  The public sector doesn't have business incentives, so it doesn't ignore the consequences of producing things as cheaply as possible for the consumer.
You could get through hundreds of people poisoning their foods in a private system before people stop using your service, and there would still be people who didn't know that you poisoned your food.  In the public sector, the place just gets shut down as soon as there's evidence of the activity.
It's free at the point of use.  The purpose of taxes is to give responsibility to those who earn more to support people who earn less.  It's not their fault that they get ill, so they need a safety net.
Bullshit.  Rich people also use roads and the public sector.  Everyone does.  Poorer people are not lazy either - companies have the incentive to make a cheap product and the consumer has the incentive to buy a cheap product, so they get labour as cheap as possible.  That means that there are still millions of slaves in the world, and that millions of people are forced into terrible working conditions.  It's lovely for you to think this way with your Western labour rights but outside of America libertarianism is barely supported by anyone.

Property doesn't have to be stolen to enter the free market. It can be donated or traded for.

Private property is one of the most fundamental things in life. It points at freedom of choice. Even in "generational slaves," freedom of choice regarding what to think, finds its way to the surface in the minds of the slaves. On the opposite extreme, libertarianism is practiced with gentle, loving kindness in voluntary giving.

8)

I strongly support libertarianism and yes, the market will regulate itself. The Indians managed to live without a government and its taxes for centuries and they thrived. There was no crime among them, no locked doors, no banks, and yet people contributed and got along with the rest of the tribe.
What are you actually against when it comes to libertarian ideals? Do you really like to be told what to do and then put in jail or beaten if you refuse? Do you really want the government to tell you if you can defend your property or not, what you can build on your land, and how much you should pay for it?
I want to live free, eat what I want, drink what I want, even if it's unhealthy, decide if I want social security or not. People should only pay for the things they're using, not be forced to work to sustain the needs of others.

Libertarianism is like almost every other credo. It sounds fantastic on paper. As soon as real humans get involved it turns into a fucking nightmare.

People are too selfish, tyrannical and weak minded to make something like true libertarianism work. We're better off with the heap of shit that many put up with at present.

Even though some of the reasoning makes sense on the surface, a libertarian society would be unspeakably depressing and disgusting in real practice.   

You're forgetting the absolutely giant distinction between all libertarian societies pre-capitalism and the kind of libertarian society that you're advocating for now.

The distinction being that even though there was some level of property rights and personal property, these were people living in villages and tribes which didn't communicate with each other well, nor have to encounter the tribes on the other side of the country 24/7.

In a modern society, when anyone can talk to anyone else or go to anywhere else, it changes completely.  Because people think "no, I owned that land first!" and feel a sense of entitlement over the land.  That's why the concept of land ownership, and thus capitalism, has caused shitloads of wars and would continue to do so under "libertarianism".

Libertarianism only works well with a noble and wise people who willingly follow the moral laws of Moses as found in Exodus and Deuteronomy.

8)

You are right. Sadly there aren't enough of them on this planet. When we all inhabit asteroids with our chosen societies with like minded people then it's time to give it whirl.

As I said, sound good on paper, but in practice, it falls apart. These corporate oligarchs would sell their mother for an extra 1% profit.



At least from what I heard what is happening in the US, is that Republicans/Libertarians want to take away healthcare aid from the poor.

This would mean 5 year old kids dying of some illness that could have been prevented.

I also heard that many people use the emergency rooms in the US, because that is free, because they can't pay for pre-consultations.

Meanwhile the profits of greedy insurances is going up, totally ignoring how one of the biggest insurances went bankrupt in 2008 due to their shitty practices, almost destroying the world economy.

So the insurance companies are welfare whores, they get bailouts, free money ,and favorable legislation, meanwhile 5 year old kids are dying of ilnesses.

Sadly only a few idealists believe in this. But if you are a realist like me (hence "real" in my name), then you realize that the corporations just love to breach this principle every time they can.

Oh it's totally immoral to collect taxes to feed the poor.... But when the big bank and the corporate masters get bailouts and subsidies, we will just turn a blind eye to that.

(Hint: it would only require a tiny expense to feed every poor person in the world, and that money is already spent on wars and corporate bailouts, so who is the real agressor?)

I don't live in the US so I may have a different idea of what libertarianism is but why are you saying that thy want to totally remove healthcare? I know some people would say that they don't want their money spent on other people but I think health and education is something any country should be spending on. A healthy and educated workforce is necessary for the economy, I expected that governments would be OK on spending  on those even if just out of self-interest.


Not to mention they had the nerve to use their private jets to go to Washington to beg for money. I want to be that sort beggar now...

Libertarianism definitely sucks and This is the worst stuff incident to humanity. Actually, Its rules are perfect for mankind in theory but These rules are devastating to humans in real life. Libertarian governments suck innocent human beings blood to death on the behalf of so-called freedom.

Yes that is exactly what is happening in the US, they want to remove healthcare, and they already removed environmental regulations.

But in the meantime they have increased their military spending.

It's total lunacy :D

They don't have money to feed the poor but they have money for wars and corporate subsidies.

No system is perfect, least of all libertarianism, the principles are sound, the application not so much, because you need honest people to make it work. Nowadays people value money over honesty, so libertarianism is dead.

Not just now but always it has been the case. Take a look at the dark history of mankind, all wars were fought for territory and money.

Only in the past 70 years after the horrors of World War 2 we have started to realize that this path is a very dark path.

Some kind of progressive philosophy arised in Europe and US, the hippy movement was it's called in derogatory terms, but in reality it was just the moral people gaining an upperhand above the immoral people.

People are getting tired of all the evils that go around in the world, in the name of money. Some people would just want to put the money aside and just build a community based on friendship and respect. That is what I would like to see.

But I don't like labels, don't call me a progressive or leftist or whatever..... I just want to see humans be more nice to eachother.

The heart of man is evil I hear. Honesty and "goodness" are the exceptions. We are created inherently selfish and seriously flawed. If you are expecting a system that will make the world a better place, you will be disappointed. That system does not exist, and never will so far as humans populate this world. There is no point crying over it. Yeah you lost your job, suck it up, go out there and kick ass. Do what you mst to get paid, that's all that matters.

Don't worry about my job, I have good family members that help me out.

I am just trying to find answers to why the world is like this. You are right, I agree with you, people are inherently evil. Some people stand out as good, but most people are either selfish or ignorant to the evils of others.

God is upholding a sufficient amount of goodness in man. It isn't man's doing. It is God's doing.

Follow the laws of God and be righteous. He will reward you here, and greatly in the hereafter.

That's what it takes to make libertarianism work.

8)

Well I don't believe in God, so I guess I am just fucked  :D

The important thing regarding libertarianism is to follow God's laws as written in the Bible, out of love. The laws are effective whether or not you believe in Him.

But you could always become a believer. And being f****d in the right way isn't bad. God wants more children.

8)

How did this discussion go from libertarianism to god's will? :D Libertarianism is all right, but no government will allow for it to thrive. They want to make slaves out of people and take as much taxes as possible. In libertarianism, you aren't forced to pay taxes for your land. You buy it - you own it for life. Under oppressive government it's a bit different. You buy it - you owe them for life...

That's where God comes in. God is the most libertarian ruler of all. He will even give you the property of your body and soul back to you, in the resurrection.

8)

He's the most libertarian, because he doesn't exist. We could say that flies or earthworms are libertarians, because they don't force you to do anything. Their existence influences the ecosystem, but not you directly. God doesn't care, just like the honey badger ;)

There is no perfect economic system in the world with each coming with its own advantage and disadvantages but in the midst of negative scenerios, then we pick the least positive which is the reason why I will still go with capitalism because it can be controlled with a strong government. Companies that are guilty of toxic material dumping in third world country are not to be blamed but the useless third world countries governments who are not doing enough to protect their citizens because in the advance countries where those goods are coming from, you dont try that nonsense with the citizens without facing serious sanctions and backlash. The regulation of capitalism is mostly the responsibility of government in which if they are ready to fight against, they will reduce it drastically.

Let me get this straight. You're against libertarianism, because you think we need a government to protect our property ownership rights. Is that it?
I know libertarianism won't succeed, because it's the most pure and honest concept and we are already too far gone. The society doesn't like honesty and doesn't like to rely on their own abilities. People have been living under the watchful eye of the government for decades and they seem to like it. When something goes wrong they just complain instead of taking action.

No.  Governments are needed to maintain who owns the property.  In a libertarian society, I can go and trespass on your land and shoot you.  Then I own the land, and no government is going to tell me otherwise.  It means that with modern communication and equipment for war, it can be a giant war-fest.
Corporations have the incentive to produce cheap products.  Consumers have the incentive to buy cheap products.  With no regulation or consideration of labour rights, you have shit like employing child slaves to make chocolate (http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8583000/8583499.stm).  Pretending that this is some kind of land of freedom, when it just encourages people to create their own slavery, is absurd.
Apart from this weird fringe ideology of American libertarianism, all anarchists have been left wing.  There are systems like anarcho-syndicalism, in which unions have greater control over the economy.  None of these systems seem to make much sense, nor do the right wing systems of "anarchism".

Maybe but that doesn't mean that there are wrong opinions. Ideas that are stupid or simply not owrking and never will in todays time shouldnt be encouraged or just be let slide by, they should be pointed out and discouraged.

Sad but true. I mean, if we make as much money as the US we'd probably have more funding for our healthcare programs. But there you have the US spending most of it in their military. I'm not going to say that it is wrong, that would be debatable. But if you have money for bullets to kill people, you probably have enough to provide just the basic healthcare.

You don't need to shoulder all the cost. Maybe spend most of it on preventive measures like routine checkups for example.

The thing with following God's laws is that it is so darn difficult, otherwise the world will be a much better place. Most religions preach goodness and living right, but people still do bad things, knowing fully well that what they are about to do is wrong. All because of our selfish desires, need and greed. Most people want to be good, but just cannot be.