Bitcoin Forum

This is potentially a 5-10m heist.  No one knows what's going on. 

This should open up lawsuits and criminal proceedings.  We don't know if MtGox stole it or what his intentions were.  We don't know ANYTHING.

You guys are blind religious fanatics for trusting this idiot.  I hope he contacts the FBI.  He's at least negligent and worst, a criminal.

We already have criminal proceedings in process against whoever did the hack.

Criminal proceedings in what country? Japan?

LOL.  Can you show proof of anything you say?

How many times have you lied?

You post information regarding users in a public forum?  Seriously?  You should be jailed for the way you handled this.

So you know who the perpetrator was?  Please tell us.  Do you have criminal proceedings against a fake identity?  Who exactly do you have criminal proceedings against?

My impression is that Mt. Gox is doing what they can as fast as they can do it. I have no complaints about the way they've handled the situation after the attacks (I do have a complaint about the attack, obviously, but that's past now).


And we do know know what's doing on to a certain extent. They've released a lot of information on their site, on the forums, and in interviews.

I guess Kevin owns their paychecks now so they jumped ship.

The troll factor is high today

Religious zealotry?

MtGox: Can you post information regarding the "criminal proceedings" you claimed above?

Kevin gets thrown to the wolves . . . but the mysterious and heretofore unmentioned "financial auditor" goes unnamed and apparently is above reproach.

MagicalTwinkie's got some splainin to do.

MtGox should be jailed.

Kevin should sue MtGox.

You guys are idiots for believing this criminal.  He should not be allowed to follow through with his plan.  There are no rules regarding this action.  The law should guide this decision, not subjective critique.  This needs to be subjected to the scrutiny of the legal system.

I don't understand how you have faith in MtGox to solve this crisis.

God we all know MtGox fucked up. Will you stop posting the same crap about them being stupid crap in every thread that pops up? Apparently you are the King of +1 and being an total asshat.

Everyone has become so malicious.  The hate that people are typing is revolting.  NO BODY forced anyone to use MtGox!  It was their own fair choice.  Their own fair risk.

I would ask that people give MagicalTux a break... He has been doing a wonderful job considering.   I would ask you also to stop making judgements with no evidence.

However, this forum has become a troll pit.  Where people just say the most hateful and non-productive things, 'just because they can.'

Arresting people serves a purpose.  So that they can post or be denied bail.  In this situation the risk for damage should encourage a judge to deny bail.  The total amount of potential hardship that he can inflict is in the 10m+ dollar range.   If he is allowed bail, all of your money is at risk.  At this point all hardware associated with MtGox should be seized and he should be confined to prison until trial.

People who believe that MtGox should set the rules and become law are delusional religious crackheads.

Is it a comics to the whole "that buyer is the hacker [probably] lets kill him now" situation

You are evil.

If the bitcoins were in fact stolen, then you had no legal expectation of keeping them no matter what price you bought them at.  In fact, you're lucky you are getting a roll-back rather than losing your investment completely.  If a cop found you in possession of a stolen vehicle that you got off of E-Bay, it won't matter that you paid for it.  They'll take it from you and give it back to the rightful owner.  It would then be your responsibility to go after the person who sold it to you.

Having said that, we have no way to validate the official story as it stands.  I do not necessarily trust or distrust MtGox.  But they need to provide confirmation of their own statements of fact.  If the police are involved, then a case number should be provided.  Perhaps a scanned copy of a police report?  I'd have much more trust in MtGox if I knew the owner has reported this to the police, if for no other reason than the fact that filing a false police report is typically a felony.

Stop.  Stop now.

Let the law decide what is or isn't.  Not you.  Not me.  Not MtGox.

4 Days until MtGox is open?  Are you serious?

HAHAHA. 

Idiots.

First, that was a really stupid thing to do; to give out our privileged account information to outsiders, to be spread across the internet.

Second, to expose the Bitcoin community to the authority of the state.

Third, I call Royal Bullshit on you, MagicalTux: Name the jurisdiction and venue, or it didn't happen.

1.  I do not trust the police.
2.  Nobody forced anyone to use MtGox!  The issue here is the one between MtGox and the hacker...

Maybe you should go: "Oh I was really stupid. I used a fucking weak password, and I put all my money in one place, I must be a genius!"

Don't we wish!

That was probably the worst move of MtGox and Britcoin. You don't go to the LE, LE comes to you.
You hire lawyers, not fill job applications for weasel.
What was that idea all about?

"Hello dear Feds, I'm M'Tux, had watch too many movies and my dream is to become a weasel. Drop by anytime for an open database party."?!

I'm pretty sure you step on too many toes with that idea. Don't know if all this mess is related, but might well be.
Really got me astonished when I saw it on the news.

Actually, many accounts could be hacked not just the ones with so week passwords it would seem.

Anyway, the problem is also what with people that bought normally say @14 or @12 - they are also being rolled back it seems?

If fraud was committed, it's irrelevant.  Fraud was committed.  Legal proceedings should proceed and parties should be judged as so.

So basically by your analysis it's irrelevant whether or not MtGox stole money, because users decided to sign up?  

How about we wait for mtgox to reopen before we start throwing all this shit around? If they truly want to stay in business, then lying to the bitcoin community is one of the last things they would want to do.

If they truly want to stay in business, then they certainly must understand that their customers expect verification of their claims.  A photocopy of a police report would be a wonderful start.  Otherwise, I expect them to lose a tremendous number of their customer base (and, therefore, holdings) shortly after they re-open.

last I heard he was trying to set up a legion and maybe had some guys with mutant powers being recruited

Yep.

Where is the evidence?

MtGox?

Or they could, you know, work on fixing the problems, reopening accounts, and restoring people's money, instead of answering self-aggrandizing troll posts. Let them work and give them time. Sheesh.

Would you be so kind as to translate this -- say, into English?  I don't understand 90% of what you just said -- I feel like I came in to the middle of a conversation.

Thank you,

Matthew

wow talk about nerd rage....

It would take only a couple minutes to scan a police report, and upload it somewhere public.  I don't think it is asking too much for those couple of minutes to be spent in this way.  It's not an either/or situation.  They can provide documentation of their claims, as well as fix the problems.  In fact, I would expect that their programmers would continue fixing the problems, while their non-programmers do the scanning.  

MtGox has said that criminal proceedings are underway.  Why is it asking too much for them to prove that to be true?

WHERE IS THE POLICE REPORT?

Responded to that one pretty quick now didn't you ;)

Less than ~3 minutes.

I'd like to see this statement verified by a journalist. Better yet, several journalists. Hopefully the NPR Planet Money folks are still doing their research on their Bitcoin episode and get a chance to contact Mt.Gox and/or whatever authorities that MtGox might have filed with to verify whether or not there is actually a criminal report filed.

Not that I don't believe MtGox's statements. But I have become very wary of bitcoin after learning that a lot of HYIP's follow the pump & dump pattern, and mysteriously get "hacked" or have their funds "stolen" and are never heard from again. I read about that maybe 2-3 days before this weekend's crash and had already become somewhat suspicious of certain public personae of Bitcoin, and MtGox.

Not saying that those people have done anything shady, just saying that upon learning about that HYIP fraud pattern, one naturally  wants to plug the bitcoin players into the pattern to see how much of those fraud patterns might be in place with Bitcoin. So I just plugged in a few players. Think who is out there publicizing bitcoin, but also doing it in a way that almost 100% focuses on how much Bitcoin WILL be worth in the future. That element of the equation definitely exists here. And now we have these hacks and crashes. It's still too early to tell if the scenario is playing out, but this weekend it certainly became a much more realistic possibility.

Caveat emptor.  Do not invest money that you are not willing to lose.  Do not complain if you lose when playing a game, do not part with money in a game that you actually need in real life.  Do NOT call the cops when you are playing with untaxable money.  Those boys in blue only get paid when you pay your taxes.  If you expect to make a fortune from gambling instead of from producing real value, you are a part of the problem and not a part of the solution.  I hope it hurt bad to be stupid and greedy.  That would be just.

How exactly are threads like this supposed to help anyone ?

Believe me, i'm also unhappy with what happened at mtgox. But in this particular case i do believe they are doing their best to restore trust. Leave Britney alone! ;)

The money is taxable, it is simply up to everyone involved to report their earnings/losses. I have made $0 off of bitcoins to date, but in every conceivable future in which I theoretically made money off them, one of my chief thoughts was how to report that on my taxes. Not everyone is a dirty lawbreaking criminal.

Tons of people seem pissed at the idea of LE coming in to investigate the hack. I see it as the only possible way to get satisfactory resolution to the matter. I reiterate that I would like to see some journalistic verifications of all the claims made by Gox and Kevin, including what type of report(s) has been filed, and at which law enforcement agencies they were filed at.

No evidence : this is exactly where the problem is.
MtGox claims that they involved the FBI, they claim that the sell order that hit the market was involving the position of a single account...
Yet they din't show any evidence to support their claims.
We don't even know who is the lucky beneficiary of the USD 8M rollback (everybody's account info leaked, many people got stollen their balance, now people who traded during the flash crash have their trades rolled back, and the biggest counterpart Kevin is publicly blamed... On the other hand, the big account holder whose position created the flash crash and maybe also previous market moves keeps both his money and his privacy: call that a fair way of handling the situation...)

I don't have a side in this story and am ready to believe MtGx if they show some evidence to support their claims ans disclose what they know.
Forcing a rollback without giving clear and sound explanations is robbery.

Sure we had the choice not to use/trust MtGox, but that doesn't preclude asking for explanations after the fact. Telling the countrary is just trolling.
If you buy something on ebay and you never get what you paid for, I doubt you will just shrug and tell "well, nevermind, I was wrong to trust this person.

I am not an anarchist by choice.  I am an anarchist because measuring the difference between what I was told was lawful and what the people with power actually do was too much to bear.  I used to be a fan of paradoxes.  They aren't funny anymore.

What you written is so stupid that my head hurts.

1. E.g. I pay ALL TAXES ON BITCOINs - you make it sound like FUD that BTC is "tax evasion money". Bullshit.

2. "from gambling instead producing real value" - so you call everyone that made fortune on 0.1->0.8  or 0.8->5 or 5->15 value increases not "early adopter" or "brave investor"(that risked often thousands on USD to buy BTC or on mining rigs to make this network work);
But basically you call us all (big traders, ArtFortz, Donators like da2ce7) - greedy gamblers, and in true communist style you imply it is bad to get richer on capitalistic ventures?
You know what, fuck you for saying such BS about BTC and community.

So you want him to get arrested before the site comes back on line so that now you really have lost what was their? Let him get the bits restored and accessible before trying to accuse him of anything. The whole event hasn't even finished playing out yet until the site comes back online and people can see what is actually in their account.

Why don't they provide a police report? Probably because they are a private company, and have no obligation to provide you with one. As I said, "self-aggrandizing trolls."
If after they bring their services back, you find out that your money was stolen, THEN bitch&moan. Till then, you're not that special.

They may not have a legal obligation to provide a police report, or even a redacted police report.  But it was MtGox themselves who claimed that 'criminal proceedings' have been initiated.  They didn't have to make that claim either, right?  But since they did, why not bolster credibility by providing proof of claimed proceedings? 

There's a difference between what is legally required, and that which helps re-establish trust. 

It's an unrealized gain until it is actually converted into a legal tender currency.  Once you convert, you are required to report the gain as profit.  And if you're using the normal venues to cash out (Dwolla, LR, etc.), then it's quite likely that those monies are already being reported to the IRS, and will be cross-checked with your tax forms.

let me guess, you work for a Wall St institution?

Because any lawyer would tell you that, when you file legal proceedings, you otherwise keep your mouth shut.

To OP:

You can't arrest a website. There's no servers in prison for them to sleep on.

Police reports are normally public.  I am not asking for him to discuss specifics of the case.  Just prove that a case DOES IN FACT EXIST.  If there are details (eg. names, IP #s, etc.) that he or his lawyer would prefer to redact, then do the redaction before releasing.  

As it stands now, we have absolutely no proof that any authority has been notified, let alone 'criminal proceedings' initiated.

Caveat emptor. Everyone involved knew, or should have known, the risks of sending their funds to an unregulated exchange in a foreign country run by someone they didn't know that well.

A few days later, but I do believe that someone, who shall remain nameless here, called me a Communist.  Communism, being the theoretical evolutionary development of socialism relies on individuals buying into a game of trust.  Trust the leaders to spend your money wisely.  Trust the courts to administer justice.  Trust the banks to keep your money safe.  Trust the regulators to intervene when individuals within their demeign (self-sic) do stupid crap.  And for crap's sake, hand over your tithe to the powers that be.  I may have also made a complaint about gambling as an economic function.
Well. 
How has that worked out for you? 

to be honest something weird was going on with mtGox even before the hack.. i heard alot of people with $$ deposits getting real slow in and out and mtgox claiming it was an 'api problem with dwolla'...  A

A friend of mine just got a phishing mail WITH the correct dwolla account number in said mail, the one that he submitted to prove his identity to mtGox.. he's now beginning to suspect either

A) mtGox is still compromised
B) someone on the inside is going for even more $$.. stringing us along.

I know this is a classic 'a friend of mine' story, but I'm starting to get suspicious.  I'm definitely calling my bank tomorrow and initiating reversals.

<--- prepares to be labelled a troll for 'wondering where the money went'

buying the luxury condos in tokyo.. the proppers on here trying to blame us and saying 'we should have known better' .. this is a classic con move, and the reason alot of cons dont get reported, is the victim feels stupid.. good conmen play on this of course.  Really step by step this is an episode of 'american greed'

You are playing with a digital cash equivalent.  If 50 bucks falls out of your pocket and you do not notice, it is likely gone for good. There are upsides to using anonymous digital cash.  Stop trying to pretend that accountability is one of them.   If you'd rather have that, there are banks and stockmarkets all over the damn place for you to play in.

right so if you get robbed/swindled for your cash in real life and u go to the police you're an idiot right.. cuz since its cash therefore all ethics and laws should no longer apply?  

Oh wait a second didnt our entire economy run on cash for like 99.99% of human history and 'thou shalt not steal' and thieves getting thrown in jail during that whole time pretty much ingrained in all our psyches but now that's all supposed to disappear cuz its DIGITAL cash?  OMG DIGITAL

Thou shalt not steal.  Too true.  One of the things this digital cash is practically begging for is global governance.  One of the only reasons I like it is because it is a global cash alternative to the previously offered solutions to global governance.  Decentralization is the demeign (self-sic) of a free-market, unlike the slavery driven, fascist, psychopathic ideas of central government that everyone else seems to enthralled with.  No center.  Just markets.  In that model, thievery isn't upheld by religious reliance on politics.  It fails by its own lack of merits.