Bitcoin Forum

Given that miners might reuse now for BTC and BCC their high valued long term investments = mining hardware, they might be able to do selfish mining / 51% attacks to bitcoin whilst parallel shorting bitcoin and destroying it for the longer term.

On the other side BCC might get a lift and could replace bitcoin, at least in Asia ( who cares we see only some 5k reddit users here in the West) ...


Comments?

I would like to see them try. After a thousand BTC is dead threads and a thousand real threats to kill the protocol I havent seen one successful attack that had a good chance of destroying it.

You can tell all the Chinese miners to try their best. Kill Bitcoin.

It's not an attack, it's a fork.  It will do absolutely nothing to the legacy chain.

The only thing that could change is that people start using the new chain or the new chain gains a higher price than the old chain.  This seems unlikely, but if it happens it would not be an attack on Bitcoin, it would be the movement of the economic majority.

---

There are far too many miners in many different places for this to happen.

A small group of pools could do this briefly, but meanwhile the miners mining at those pools would switch to new ones which weren't participating in the attack.

Even if it did happen, the same thing could always happen on BCC later.

[ANN] Bitcoin Cash - Fork 1:1 of Bitcoin - Pro on-chain scaling
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2040221

 ;D

Maby we can agree upon that the likliness for using one or the other is correlated with the security and reputation of the underlying.

The attackable one will suffer sooner or later.

It's a mixture of security, reputation and convenience.  The Bitcoin Cash chain, at least at first, will be more convenient, but it doesn't have the maturity and investments that have already made BTC extremely secure.  The Lightning Network will increase the original BTC's convenience for microtransactions, and then IMO the original BTC will be hard to overtake because when most microtransactions are sent on the LN, the fees will not be too significant for onchain transactions anymore.

If people start questioning the security of BTC though, I don't think that their first move will be to go to Bitcoin Cash though.  Bitcoin Cash isn't so drastically different to BTC security wise that its reputation would be good after a problem with BTC.

Their first move would be to go to an altcoin with different consensus and security systems and see how that works out.

Think of BCC as another altcoin like Litecoin which will probably be priced similarly. ViaBTC is shilling BCC hash cloud mining and I doubt many will take them up on the offer. They are even offering to swap S9 BTC cloud mining one for one for BCC cloud mining. Oh boy the deal of the century where do I sign up /s they should be offering to give you twice the amount of BTC hash you have in BCC.

There will be no hardfork. Miners know who is the real boss in Bitcoin, and that's Bitcoin whales. Not miners, not exchangers, not corporations, all of these don't hold Bitcoin, they are fiat whores, they sell their BTC for fiat, they don't have real skin the game.

The whales will punish any hardfork that doesn't meet the required criteria to be a proper hardfork. Some rushed hardfork into some altcoin isn't a hardfork people with real skin in the game will approve, so it will get dropped to the ground quickly. If they really don't understand it, then let them try and we'll see what happens.

ultimately the bitcoin whales are looking for dollars like everyone else. they take a longer view perhaps but that's the bottom line.

BCC is simply Satoshis true vision enacted finally. It should be embraced by all who bought into the original vision of Bitcoin.

@Xavofat
The next hard fork on Bitcoin Cash will solve the malleability, so it will also become LN compatible.

Blatant lies. There WILL be a hard fork on August 1st.

I don't see the problem. People will have coins on both chains and that's it, it's up to you what you want to do with them. Personally I am looking forward to the free extra coins.

Interesting.  All I've read is the website and some stuff on the BitcoinABC subreddit.  If you've got future hard forks planned, is there anywhere with a clear roadmap so I can read?
That's extremely ignorant of you.
It is a "proper" hard fork.  I think what you mean is that it's a hard fork without consensus, which is true.  Maybe you should start talking normally instead of shoving unnecessarily emotive language into everything.
But it is a hard fork, right?  So there will be a hard fork?

Also, does that mean that UASF can't gather support because it was too rushed?

I'm going to follow along with this guy here, I just can't see an attack on bitcoin doing anything in the least -- even if they have the power for them to be able to (in theory) try. As I think even if they have the power to do it, some early adopter will pay for them to stop, the community just won't tolerate it, or another big miner who cares for Bitcoin will balance them out and then silence the Chinese miners.

I do think there is going to be a hard fork on August 1'st though, I don't know how it will go but it WILL occur.

Try to kill us, it'll fail!

If this is true than the SW hating miners might attack?

Not all reddit users are in the west.

But cant this hard fork be viewed as an attack on BTC itself and its developers? What they are trying to do is make a contentious hard fork that would for the blockchain in 2. If thats not an attack then what would you call that?

Are you joking? Neither one of those is a threat against anything even close to bitcoin itself. It's like trying to say that plastic soldiers may be a threat to the paper dolls that you made earlier in your childhood

it is an attack on the Bitcoin blockchain.

The split itself is a simple attack, low level. Like generating any alt is an attack against bitcoin / diluting the global buy-power for bitcoin.


That's not what this here is about - it DOES enable a second level attack that harms one or the other blockchain, since miners can be flipped between both. This is really new.

It can be viewed as a political attack against the current developers. Activating Segwit via BIP 91 might be a decoy. Its the hard fork to 2mb block sizes, which the miners want is the real problem. Its a contentious hard fork.

Sorry - this is about game theory and the Nash equilibrium that keeps bitcoin safe from a 51% miner attack.

This is about to be broken once miners can choose mining on 2 similar blockchains.

This is 'no' issue if there is a big difference in those 2 coins.

It gets very critical if those 2 coins have same value / perspective.

Than they could destroy one of the blockchains with a 51% attack (double spending , ...)  - AND  shorting the breaking coin.


Game theory is like the glue for bitcoin's safety!

Your right here, Neither one of them are anything to contend with just a bunch of jokes  and trying to compare the two of them is basically useless  ;)
They are no close to the Real bitcoins.

 These are mere Altcoins seeking fame and so we shouldn't hype them by discussing them any longer. It's just irritating now that Bitcoin is going to be fixed of its scaling issues to be discussing some dead coins.

This might not work as you think it should

In real life, it will most likely be a one-shot attempt. They could indeed first short the real Bitcoin heavily (like hackers likely did before the Bitfinex hack nearly a year ago), and then crash it massively (earning handsome profits in the process), but they won't be able to earn from the alternative Bitcoin (Bitcoin Cash) rising since people will avoid it like a plague and dump their stashes of both Bitcoin coins like hot potatoes. Any sane person would either leave the cryptoscene for good or stick to some decent altcoin (say, Litecoin) in case the events are going to play out that way

I just wanna say: It might work - and next : think of Chekhov's gun!  It will be used.

And the gun gets loaded with 2nd bullet

https://www.bitcoin.com/public-service-announcement


Think about if all SW blocking pools (>50% hashpower) would do exactly this....  ^

It kinda looks you refer to this part by the link you posted:


But that's outright bullshit which is showing through. The second part of the Segwit2x deal will be activated only in November unless postponed by miners themselves due to bugs and/or instability of the code behind this hard fork (which, as to me, is the most likely train of events anyway), but it doesn't look like Bitcoin Cash is going anywhere at all right now. It seems more likely that it will be done with within days if not hours after it actually enters circulation on August, 1st. Honestly, you seem to be overacting

Sure - in this quality it might be needed - the threat is of a new quality as well.

I already said up-tread the threat is only relevant once BCC gains reasonable fraction and market share. Sane people can read and conclude. But the weapon seems to be created soon and loaded as well -

This is about to discuss this and hopefully take steps that Chekhovs gun is not really used in the end.    

You seem to fail to see the forest for the trees

Or it might be me who misinterpreted what you were trying to say. Anyway, what I mean to say is that if Bitcoin China gets traction, market share and recognition, it will make no sense for Bitcoin.com to stay with regular Bitcoin altogether, whether their "fellow community members uphold agreements made" or not. They are part of the mining cartel, and given that, this threat as such is not just irrelevant, it is actually cynical and hard-boiled, so to speak. The whole cartel will be just happy and eager to abandon this so-called "agreement" themselves as well as regular Bitcoin if Bitcoin China does take off for real

I guess you understood pretty much all. I just want to add if this ^ finally comes out, than the miners must do the killing threat to the 'regular bitcoin' and can save their physical bound equipment entirely. The killing could be in any way but the Nash equilibrium is just broken by the OPTION  to so now.

Whoever would think of trading or mining BCC, besides the intial dump which we ll all do, directly undermines crypot economy and all future profits we might all have from crypto. Why? If BCC does take roots, who says they wont fork everytime they d like to make more money on unsuspecting noobs. In my book, BCC does not exist beyond the initial dump which I ll do the moment I get those coins.

You think what s the best for you as crypto holders.

On a rational base I would say exactly the same.


Big issue: Humans are NOT rational.


And we do not know hidden agendas (Chinese , PBoC,  Asia at all - no clue !)


And there is dynamics making all more complex.


We need to see how that plays out.

What we need to understand is that almost every party is doing exactly what we think we're doing. Acting on a rational base. Individuals by design cannot possibly share the same rational base. What is rational to them is not to us, vice versa. Like it or not, profit will be the loudest rationale to the majority of us. When it isn't clear which direction will lead to that, we hold, wait and see. It's really the only option we can afford, since we're not all swimming in coins.

Well, I quite like the way you put it

This is what I'm telling myself most Bitcoin holders will do as soon as this Bitcoin China Coin actually hits the markets after August the first. And this is what a dumping war would mean in practice, though it seems like it is not going to last long anyway, and the ViaBTC coin will get torn to pieces in less than half a jiffy. Their only chance and hope is a severe bug in the SegWit code which would render Bitcoin unusable at least for some time, or a concerted attack by the cartel against regular Bitcoin somewhere around that date (i.e. early August)

Hu ?   How can that be ? 'SW was tested now for that long !?'    ;D

'We expect the bug to sit in the 2x ! '

 ;D  ;D  ;D 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg20877966#msg20877966

This option my thread is about ...

https://i.imgur.com/hMlWvpN.jpg

Just do it. ALright , we'll see the war. Who will win centralized BCC or Decentralized BTC. BCC is centralized controled by chinese and bitmain miners. In fact , it is not more than 5 % miners all over the world. Could they mobilize 51%. They need 46% more. When they want to attACK, I think all bitcoin community will not stay silent. They will activate their mining farm again to prevent the 51% attack.

Nice graphics to follow how the old legacy Nash Equilibrium is on the move:

http://fork.lol

Add some more player levels like 2nd layers or more forks and we will see more heavy fluctuations.

But this might be the case for the next years and we hope it does not cause too much harm to the entire Bitcoin ecosystem, mostly driven by good old legacy reputation.


Roots for this are mostly human based, since computers can do.

This might be the final outcome.
I also was reading that the German Bank Controller BAFIN have a strong view on payment companies and LN falls into this. So I predict SW + LN is a dead born horse.

Core fan boys just do not get that on-chain + on-earth is the only real trustless way

This is what I was about here :


Incoming soon ?


https://twitter.com/LukeDashjr/status/927752600350576640

Nothing is going to happen!
Not soon, not soonish, not ever.

It's just the frustration that boils in Luke at 100 gallons per minute.


About that death spiral of your, seems like is the other way around.
First the profitability has dropped from 92.6 to guess what...

And let's not forget that the one in a death spiral mining itself to death is BCC, with almost 10k blocks mines ahead of BTC.
They will reach far sooner the halving, and with no to fees...who will still mine this?

In the making .....