Bitcoin Forum

Final Edit:

I told everyone from the start that this is the main point of the thread:

<Spoiler Code>
Both you and the Bitcoin project might be better off if you ignore all MtGox threads and help build projects for the Bitcoin economy....
</Spoiler Code>

Thank you for participating.

If you posted prior to page #4, and want to know exactly what happened, see this post (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20779.msg261287#msg261287).






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First, I am a huge MtGox fan and supporter, this can be easily shown if you are motivated to review my posting history.
2nd, Until ~2 hours ago, I was certain trading would resume within a couple of days.



!!!
<Spoiler Code>
Both you and the Bitcoin project might be better off if you ignore all MtGox threads and help build projects for the Bitcoin economy. If you want to know why they may be preparing to run please continue now.   :D
</Spoiler Code>




!!!!!!!!!!!
Major Edit to the main topic:

• I better understand now why we cannot view the contents of our accounts, but they are still causing a huge amount of needless work and delays with today's set-up.

!!!!!!!!!
***EDIT: I admit being wrong on an important detail:
Here:
Why, are we still waiting for more verification after today's verification? that doesn't match what was supposed to happen.
!!!!!!!!!


Reality Check: Strong Indication MtGox Is Packing Up to Run w/ Money and BTC?

The current set-up which we waited for, should be a huge let-down for all the supporters and believers?
Why?
Secure Code to check the strength of passwords is very common.

Like this: Add a current password field to the current form >> Use a script similar to a login to verify password is accurate >> Add simple code to stop more than _ attempts (brute force protection)  >> If password matches, then finish current script w/ email verification and account activation (minus actual tading) NOW, not later. *EDIT: Also force password change...
^^^

A small 2 man show w/ ~1 or 2 employees holding millions of dollars intentionally set-up a system that will keep us waiting, worrying, fighting, and debating for at least 3 more days.
^^^
Why?
Why did they intentionally set-up a system that will keep us waiting, worrying, fighting, and debating for at least 3 more days?

This is a  Reality Check: Strong Indication MtGox Is Packing Up to Run w/ Money and BTC?

What do you think?

I think you're nuts

I think you have absolutely no evidence, but i'm on board anyway.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

It's pointless to boost security when hackers can go in through holes in the foundation.

also,

If you can enter and leave a secure room, intruders can get in and out simultaneously while walking through the gateway.





It's almost pointless to think mt gox can secure the site from every hacker in the world until we get a bitcoin-like impenetrable security system in place.

That would be the most hilarious thing to have happened yet to BTC.

I'm sure it has crossed their mind, but you can't hide long enough from 60000 people with the level of intellect displayed here to spend the kind of money they have stashed.

Running off with that much BTC and USD would attract the immediate interest of law enforcement.  In short, he not only wouldnt get away with it he'd be cooling his heels with bubba for the next 20 years.

MagicalTux isn't stupid.  Nor does he come across as dishonest enough to want to try it in the first place.

Recovering from this kind of breach is a long and complex operation - just ask Sony.

why would they make a claims page, if they were hitting the road.

 They could have just disappeared by now.  If they did skip out, Yes they would be hunted for the rest of their lives by anarcho sadisdo capitalist athiest murderer pornographer hackers, they know this, and know that their lives would be lost or ruined and tortured.   Thats the reality check!

So. Looks to me like MtGox is fighting the good fight, and a difficult one at that. They have 61,000 accounts to deal with and a legion of seething geeks / opportunists / selfish bastards.  They have no choice but to perform. This is daunting at best.

When youre going through hell keep on going mtgox.

Good reminder, thanks.


finack is correct the "indicator" might be poor design, not intent to run.
I will add Customer service is King, and the current set-up is horrible for most of us. My OP shows how we could all have been checking our account balances right this moment.  (Except for those w/ weak passwords)

Gox has not been very open about what they're doing, it's just delay after delay, claim site goes up for 20min then goes down indefinitely.

If they're indeed fleeing, they obviously do need a few days, if not weeks to deplete their(our) accounts because of the withdraw limit of banks, etc. But they needed to post every few hours to calm us down.

Great, remember I'm a strong supporter.
Why did they intentionally set-up a system that will keep us waiting, worrying, fighting, and debating for at least 3 more days?

the only way they could do it is if they get emergency plastic surgery, make them self look Asian, because all Asians look the same, and we won't be able to distinguish them.

That's Hollywood territory.

Not sure really what choice they had.

1. Their entire user database is public knowledge.
2. Many of those users had positive BTC/UTC balances
3. They *need* to change their password.

But - problem - the bad guys probably know their password too.

I can't imagine a way to handle that quickly - the primary means of identity - the username/password pair - is compromised.  The only way to verify is out of band.. things you know about the account, recognised ID, etc.  This is slow - it could take weeks - and until everyone who has requested access gets it they can't open without being accused of favoritism.

If this is correct "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Then our #1 exchange is run by people who are not improving their decision making when they most need to come through for their customers, IMO.

The recent BitCoin territory is way crazier than Hollywoods.

They *need* to change their password.

Addressed and automated in my OP.
Starting with their public statements about the process, a huge number of the checks could have been 100% automated.

Because they are having a hard time setting up a system that doesn't.

Seriously, you were one of the few voices of reason on the forum, what happened. Don't go crazy on me.

So you think they have more to gain by just running off with whatever amount of money they currently have and hiding from law enforcement for the rest of their lives, vs just putting the nose to the grind and implementing a better, more secure system that if they manage to get it right this time, has the potentiall to be very profitable?

I keep hearing people say as if they know it to be fact that there are no more then 1 or 2 people at Mt Gox, with no other resources what so ever?  I am truely amazed how many people seemingly have direct knowledge of, and are experts in, the goings on behind the scenes at Mt Gox.

OK, thanks DamienBlack, I can do that.
Long Live MtGox!


ps. If anyone wants to ever start a viable alternative to my favorite exchange please include awesome real-time charts exactly like MtGox has, thank you.

So the folks at Mt. Gox, probably not sleeping a lot, in the middle of the biggest shitstorm of their lives, trying to operate slowly enough to be cautious, put up an account reclamation page that fails to cater to your emotional needs.

I'd call this, at very worst, an exceedingly weak indication of intent to run with the cash. There's no logical connection to make here. If they were going to run, why not just placate you with a page that says "yup, you have your account back. Hang on for the next 3 days while we rustle up some more security." and then take take off?

I think your anxieties are running roughshod over your rational thought.

1) I was, for good reason, not impressed with today's offering from them.
2) You other supporters are helping to convince my they will be up and running again, thank you.  :)




Up until very recently, it was a commonly known fact that MtGox was a hobby-project run by only 2 people. Then they hired 1 for customer service when prices were shooting up every day.

The level of intellect displayed here?? 90% of the people here are idiots man. OP is a prime example.

>The level of intellect displayed here?? 90% of the people here are idiots man. OP is a prime example.

You may be correct.
Try this:

First you say how busy and over-worked they are.
The thread topic is asking "Why did they intentionally set-up a system that will keep us waiting, worrying, fighting, and debating for at least 3 more days?", and causes much more needless work for MtGox

Second, the current set-up does not increase security any more than what they already stated they are doing. It adds a delay that could drag on for a very long time.



Remember, Both you and the Bitcoin project might be better off if you ignore all MtGox threads and help build projects for the Bitcoin economy.   :D

Oh, two posts in a row with no worthwhile content, which insult my intellect, how impressive.
You're invited to display what you have in your brain:

Why did they intentionally set-up a system that will keep us waiting, worrying, fighting, and debating for at least 3 more days, and causes much more needless work for MtGox?

+1

Yeah I laughed out loud (litterly) when I read that comment about the level of intellect displayed here.  Don't get me wrong, there are some really bright people here that often have very interesting, meaningful and insightful contributions but for most...  I see dumb people - they're everywhere - they don't even know they're dumb!!

You are also invited to display what you have in your brain:

Why did they intentionally set-up a system that will keep us waiting, worrying, fighting, and debating for at least 3 more days, and causes much more needless work for MtGox?

The people who insult while offering nothing in return have moved in for now.
Thanks again for your nice comment, DamienBlack.  :)


Long Live the #1 exchange MtGox!

If I had the same "opinion" you do, then I would try to answer this question about your opinion.  But I don't, because I like to base my opinions on known facts and common sense, as much as I can anyway.  I am not sure what your opinion is based on but it seems quite clear to me you pulled it out of your ass, that is just my opinion. 

If you can prove they are doing what you are accusing them of doing then I will will be happy to "contribute" my thoughts on the matter.

Have you ever tried to rollback a database using just a transaction log? Depending on how prepared they are to do it, it could either be relatively simple or an absolutey fiendish bastard. I'll bet it is the latter.

It is not like they are there calling the shots, they are well up against it and they are probably sat there sweating and typing as fast as their fingers can go making decisions minute by minute in a marvellously frezied ad-hoc panic. Good luck to 'em, but I don't think they are going anywhere. sit tight.

The topic invites input on ideas and asks a key question. If you are not able to understand that, then please don't participate.

My question is specific and your answer, while correct, is addressing an expanded topic.
You did make a very good point though, Torminalis.


Major Edit to the main topic:
I understand why we cannot view the contents of our accounts, but they are still causing a huge amount of needless work with today's set-up.

Precisely how is it needless?

Clearly answered in the OP, and at these 3 other places.

I would be very surprised if they are rolling back the actual database transaction logs.  I would imagine the are more likely accomplishing the rollback of the exchange by creating new transactions to effectively reverse the previous ones.  Just my guess.

Well I guess clearly means different things to different people.  Where is the clear explanation of what they're doing and why it's needless?

Just to clarify, for #2, did you mean be running away with the money (as in the thread subject) or did you mean back up and running?


Is there somewhere they publically state this?

<My statements are paraphrased and accurate enough>

Before:
We were told the primary verification is based on password strength. If your password was not easily hackable, then you can use email verification and login to change your password.


Currently:
Today's offering verified the email and offered a chance to provide "more information."

1) Password strength check can be easily automated.
^^^
A key part of my initial main point


2) How are they currently checking password strength, with what was offered today?
(I don't recall entering a password today, please tell me if I'm wrong) ***


***EDIT: I admit being wrong on an important detail:
Here:
Why, are we still waiting for more verification after today's verification? that doesn't match what was supposed to happen.

Edited and fixed, your accurate feedback is helpful.  :)



Commonly known fact == Frequently mentioned on the forum (by many different people), and never challenged.
That is as close as I can come to actually answering your exact question.

Can anyone say Stockgeneration.com ?
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20223.0

I guess I'm just being dense but I don't follow...

Which part is a key part of your point?  #1?  ok so they aren't automating and that's why they're wasting time?  That's your suggestion, that they automate password strength check?  I'm now just completely confused.

In light of your response, I feel like I'm missing something. I read the first post fairly carefully, but I don't understand what exactly it is you think they've done wrong, and what you think they should have done instead. Earlier today, I went to the claims page, typed in my old password, typed in a new password, submitted the form, and got an email with a link. I can't get anywhere with the link or go back and look at the form for reference since Mt. Gox is down now, but what's wrong with the system I described?

Maybe I just haven't been reading these forums heavily enough (I did glance around several topics); but your post kind of confuses me. The form I looked at had a "current password" field, for example...

edit: thread's moving fast, isn't it... sorry for the moderately redundant points

Yes, here:
We were told the primary verification is based on password strength. If your password was not easily hackable, then you can use email verification and login to change your password.

That did not happen, why?

From where I sit, the thread topic (the subject) is: [Reality Check!] Strong Indication MtGox Is Packing Up to Run w/ Money and BTC?

If you want to plant the idea that MtGox might consider just running off with everyone's money, I would hope you have some supporting information that strongly suggests that is what's happening.  I don't see any such information being offered, or at the least I am not understanding it.

(btw, why a supporter would want to promote such a theory is beyond me)

Hi unbuttered_toast,
I'm sorry if I don't remember entering my old (and new) password today, but it does tend to strengthen my primary question:

Why, are we still waiting for more verification after today's verification? that doesn't match what was supposed to happen.

Was your password easily hackable?

Is this the basis for your suggestion that Gox might run away with the money?

Maybe this is the key point. My previous password was 24 characters, alphanumeric, and might have had some special characters in there.

Perhaps their definition of "not easily hackable" requires more than 20 characters, or something else unintuitive.

My Gox account was empty anyways so ill just go to TradeHill if he runs off. But , why would you run off when he has such a successful business. Gox is 90% of the trading market. You can say I'm wrong all you want but, all other trading sites are open.. Bitcoin 7 ... Tradehill. They aren't don't nearly as much transactions as Gox. This is like Gox being Microsoft and just up and leaving and taking their billions of dollars and bailing. What is the point? So Mac could take the market.. GET LOST!!! If Magical Tux wants to run off with his millions whatever... He fooled us all...but why run away with a couple million when you can turn that million into billions ? An no frigen site online is secure from all hackers. How many times did Citi Bank get taken down. You people need to relax. Just shut up and stop crying about it and ride the wave in. The site isn't even up yet and all I see in the forums is people bashing him. I'm on his side till he runs away with my zero dollars and i have to go to TradeHill.

I think we've been trolled.  Can I rollback the past hour to get my lost time back?

I told you and everyone from the start that this is the main point of the thread:

<Spoiler Code>
Both you and the Bitcoin project might be better off if you ignore all MtGox threads and help build projects for the Bitcoin economy. If you want to know why they may be preparing to run please continue now.   :D
</Spoiler Code>

Dirt Rider and unbuttered_toast, have above average to excellent attention to detail regarding the MtGox questions. Thank you for participating. I will edit the OP and the title now.

Wrong. Not that simple, though I'm sure Mt. Gox wish it were. There have already been accounts hacked at MyBitcoin, possibly using the information from the leaked database. If that's the case, then the attacker has at least several passwords in plaintext now, possibly all. This means the attacker could also have access to their e-mail. Asking for their old password or relying on an e-mail-based confirmation would not be at all a safe way to restore security.

And +1 to whoever it was that said they're busy trying to seal up all the other holes in the foundation a hacker might use to get in. Security audits can be pretty lengthy, depending on how thorough the audit is, how skilled the auditor is, and how foo-barred the code is.

Please, see the current OP and thread title., I'm sorry if your time was wasted. Thank you for your accurate feedback.

Considering you posted the most to the thread and had to spend time artificially inventing and arguing a point of view you didn't agree with, I'm pretty sure you mostly just trolled yourself. gg and next time eat less sugar.

Not accurate.
This is genuine and a great idea:
Both you and the Bitcoin project might be better off if you ignore all MtGox threads and help build projects for the Bitcoin economy....


The rest was presented as a serious question (for anyone who went past the spoiler code)
My phone rang this morning when I was halfway through with the process; Since the main section doesn't ask for a password, I did not remember being asked for it at all.

In addition, many people were expecting (without trading) to actually have access to our accounts today.

For all you nay sayers.

I have confirmed with magicaltux that my BTC is in tact, my libertyreserve withdrawal I made on that day even got processed.

Why would my funds get processed if they intended to steal it?

Things will be up soon and much more reliable, hes implementing a few nifty security features.

In the interview yesterday on onlyonetv.com (check episode #8) with Mark and Adam, they were asked "Who else is working for mtgox?" and the response was (I'm paraphrasing a bit as I'm not watching it atm) "Well we're in the process of hiring other people at the moment. Also there was supposed to be someone else coming on but they backed out..."

Thanks for the positive update, Clipse.

I have full confidence that MTGox will be restored and I'll be able to access the small # of btc that I had stored there.  I've submitted a request to have my account confirmed, and will proceed with mailing the physical confirmation tomorrow.  I'm sure they have a lot to work to do, with ~60k accounts needing confirmation, but they seem determined to get through it.  My password was not very secure, but fortunately my other important accounts (email, banking, etc..) used unique passwords so were unaffected by this recent hiccup.  Has anyone here had their account confirmed yet?

I think what Bit_Happy was saying must just've aligned with your own biases up until now... there was nothing "voice of reason" about using emotive language comparing the Mt Gox incident to wildfires, for example, but that post was encouraging people to stick with them whereas this one wasn't initially.