Bitcoin Forum

I'm offereing a 5,000BT3 Testnet coin bounty for the first person to set up a Bitcoin testnet Pool so people can mine testnet coins without needed to solo mine. Now that the difficulty is really ramping up fast- pools will become more and more important for people to mine Bitcoin Testnet Coins.

When I say BT3 I am referring to Bitcoin Testnet (Version 3). This is the standard testnet built into every Bitcoin client.

Why would anyone want to mine on testnet if they are not bitcoin devs? It can be reset at will, carries no value and isn't intended as anything but a sandbox..

apparently they are being considered to become the next steady alt-coin.

That opinion is changing. Many are starting to realize the value of a bitcoin testing ground for bitcoin that goes beyond the simple mechanical basics of the blockchain. Things like Scripting and OP_EVAL codes which are disabled in Bitcoin but enabled on testnet need to tested in a social economy where individuals have a monetary incentive to try and break things or steal things or develop things. As testnet-in-a-box allows developers to have a stable low difficulty testnet- so the main testnet is no longer needed for that sort of controlled testing.

It can also not be entirely 'reset at will'. What you mean by "reset" is that the genesis block would be changed and would require an update to the client that everyone in the bitcoin universe (or at least a majority) would need to upgrade to. The reason why I proposed calling this BT3 is that it is the third version of Bitcoin testnet. Even with a client upgrade, we can still stay on BT3, we can't be forced off of it, and any other upgrades to the bitcoin client can be included.

The brilliance of using Bitcoin Testnet as an alt-chain is that non of the intelectual energy that goes into alt-chains needs to be wasted on reinventing the wheel: difficulty algo's, 51% protection, basic things that Bitcoin has already solved. Developers on Bitcoin testnet can plunge right into a secure and stable chain.

What do you mean by that?

I was generalising the difficulties experienced by start up alt-coins and the problems that they needed to deal with. I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't 51% the testnet. I meant to refer to the problem with terracoin where someone came with far more then 51% of the hash power of the network and brought confirmations to a standstill. I believe Bitcoin Testnet will reset the difficulty if no blocks have been discovered for more then 20 minutes.

I've put a p2pool pool up, happy to leave it running on BT3 for some time. Will be a good opportunity to tune the p2pool server if I can get a few people using it!  :)

Server: mine.procrypto.com
Port: 19332
Stats: http://mine.procrypto.com:19332/static/
Username: <your testnet bitcoin address>
Password: (doesn't matter)

Coins will end up at your address as if you'd solo mined them.

I'll try it out for sure! How do we get the coins we mine?

EDIT: I get it, I'm using my testnet address as username. :-)

Sorry, should have clarified (edit: updated my first post). Standard p2pool procedure, i.e. use your bitcoin address as username, password doesn't matter. Your share of each block ends up at the address like it would if you had solo mined.

Running great! Sure beats solo mining!

EDIT: Send me your testnet address and I'll send you the bounty!

We'll see how it goes, I'll keep an eye on it. If it disconnects for a moment it will only be because I've tweaked something and restarted the p2pool instance. The miner should reconnect itself if that occurs.

Could this become an alt-coin in it's own right then, and have an associated trading value?

Sure, and there was talk about this at the Conference and even on the bitcoin development email list. Think of it as a chance to have a coin that performs like bitcoin where we can test out more exotic ideas without worrying about screweing something up with bitcoin. Exchanges could have bitcoin exchanges and testnet exchanges- where the testnet exchanges could experiment with cutting edge ideas like colored coins or OP-EVAL codes and scripting.

Post your source for this?

Yay, testnet will be even more difficult to use, congratulations guys!  ::)

and then they reset testnet and it's all gone? 

Remember that last testnet was restored because people started assigning these "test bitcoin" a value

"Testnet2 was just the first testnet reset with a different genesis block, because people were starting to trade testnet coins for real money." (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet)

I'm not trying to make things difficult, or wind up with a bunch of coins I hope might have tradable value (I appreciate that defeats the object of testnet). I'd just like a small stash for future app development.

I had problems getting testnet coins solo mining a few days ago, so when crazy_rabbit asked, I was able to oblige with a pool quite quickly as I had already played with p2pool on testnet in my attempts to generate some.

I'm also pleased for the opportunity to tweak the p2pool server under some kind of load (YAC mining isn't really putting it through its paces).

If it proves to be a huge problem I'm happy to turn things off. :) Alternatively, we could encourage anyone who needs some testnet coins to join the pool.

edit: had to restart it, timestamps of blocks were off. Deleted the p2pool testnet data directory, and it seems to be working fine now.

Had a little think about this.

Would it make sense to have a Bitcoin Testnet pool, with the donation set at 50-75% going funding a faucet located on the same page as the pool?

If a user wants some Testnet coins, they can either use the faucet (25 tBTC a hit), or mine and at the same time replenish the faucet for others. We could also have encourage faucet users to return unused tBTC to the balance, like this Testnet faucet (http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/). Thoughts?

Actually that's not true. Thanks to https://github.com/freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box anyone can build a testnet as they wish. So by encouraging miners on testnet we don't harm any projects. Anyone can have their stable difficulty testnet.

If you were are the conference this past weekend you would have seen that the view of testnet is changing. That it should be a staging ground for more exotic bitcoin features that are too cutting edge to risk on the main network. There is a growin concensous that testnet bitcoins need to have some nominal value so as to incentivize people to try more exotic applications- be it trying to steal through OP-EVAL codes, scripting or hacking projects. Now that testnet in a box is out there, people can have a stable testnet whenever they want, but to really test bitcoins 'final frontier' features, we need to assign coins some sort of value so as that people are incentivized to try harder to build, steal, develop, conquer.

Nope, not true. We can all stay on BT3 (Bitcoin Testnet Three) as long as we want. If they reset testnet, it would be testnet four, and we wouldn't have to switch to it unless we wanted to.

so what wallet I use for this? I got nothing better to do anyways.

Well you can run your bitcoin client normally in testnet mode- and you can use that.

You can learn about testnet here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet

Otherwise in your bitcoin config file you can set testnet=1

Isn't that the source in and of itself? :-)

EDIT: Part of the conversation:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=201305200712.19206.luke%40dashjr.org&forum_name=bitcoin-development

Well maybe it's time to change things. Although to be clear, I think it's more important that we focus on experimenting with Testnet- building things rather then focusing solely focusing on value. This probably won't please the pump-and-dump coin crowd, but then again if you are into crypto long-run I think it makes sense to try and direct your energies towards something that feeds back into bitcoin.

I sent you the bounty! Thanks! I'm mining away happily!

Ok, rabbit. I'll bite. This seems like a fun activity vs. mining 'the coin of the day'. Would you mind tossing me a few coins to make sure I set up the testnet wallet correctly:
mphbYoY6wLb4MqNZnKSLos6Xqi8HK4Lv1W
Thx

Thx Rabbit, seems to be working fine. Throwing a few MH at the pool for fun.

^^ 1 tBTC was from me   :)


I got that, many thanks, has given me a healthy balance to use. :)

I'm glad the pool has been working well, I'm happy to leave it running for a little while longer.

It's on a pretty good server, so it's not cheap to run. Any other donations (BTC, LTC, YAC) are greatly appreciated - I'll add some donation links on the pool stats pages. If anyone finds it useful and fancies being generous, feel free  ;D

Can someone send me something to see if i have my wallet setup right? 
n1SjFzS8o98GtQAQgPouBSgFCiK9mGawwe
Thanks

If I remember where on my network I installed my YAK wallet I'll send you a few :)

Well thank you :)

Wrong address.  This is the correct one

mhYWCuRyzA4ugrb8STLkP8TfwP1X6GkUtG

Thanks

If testnet coins begin having momentary value, they then are then useless for testing purposes.

Looks like people are starting to mine BTC testnet. Perhaps it's time to start mining this one with some stronger hash power...

Well, I assume the 'value' is whatever it is traded for and/or if a developer has use for a testnet with a higher diff then a new reset one. I mine just for fun.

How long can I expect to wait for the first tBTC from the pool to hit wallet? I can't see my address after around 40 min of mining in the payout list. Just curious!

Don't think we've hit a block for about that long. Payouts on this p2pool setup generally come a few mins after we do.


As I stated earlier in the thread, I personally don't have any interest in them gaining any value. Using p2pool, I was able to get a quantity of tBTC that I just wouldn't have been able to mine on my own with one lowly 6870. I intend to use them for the purpose for which they were intended.

If the pool starts taking every single block, I might have to pull it, as it's really not my intention to render the Testnet useless.

Well I think more people will start mining eventually, that said- I'd say leave it up, even if you are taking every single block. What would happen on Bitcoin if some super powerful miner were able to take  every single block? I don't think we should be so 'easy' on testnet. It's place to experiment with bitcoin. The testnet is a place were we can really stress test bitcoin, so lets have at it! Thats my opinion. Lets push and pull this thing and find out where all the weak spots are. We don't have to be paranoid like the devs are about bitcoin. We aren't playing with anyone's billion dollars after all. :-)

Besides, it's not useless. Developers can always run "testnet in a box" so it's not like they are screwed because of your service.

I wouldn't worry about the pool 51% the testnet. I am throwing just over 1GH/S at it solo right now and doing fine. The pool I am not so sure, I ran against it for 45 min and never even saw my address in the payout or graph. Prob just being antsy but solo mining is just as well for me right now.

Wrong. Testnet-in-a-box doesn't work for everybody.
+ No service like blockexplorer (no, Abe can't replace it)
+ No stress test (like you love to say) possible if you're the only one
+ You can't test your app/service with beta-testers on testnet

You're just parasiting the whole principle of testnet
Why not copy-pasting bitcoin with a new genesis block? Why not using testnet2 or testnet1? (these are not rhetorical questions)

I'm quoting you:
Then use testnet2 or testnet1. That's the exact same thing except you don't ruin things for developpers.

Attempting to financially profit from testnet coins is just lame. Stooping to new lows of desperation, pure and simple.

If you don't need them or don't plan on using them anytime soon, do the right thing for Bitcoin and donate them to the faucet.

first of all, block explorer is hardly a reliable service. Last time I checked it was down anyway.

And how would you stress test on the testnet network if no one else is on it? I'm talking about running ideas that might pollute the blockchain, or spam it. Services that embed data in it like torrents, links, pictures, complex scripts. These are all legitimate things to experiment with, but not financially or functionally possible (or a good idea) on main-net. We need a place to do things like that.

You'll get beta testers on the testnet network, when there's more people on it. To do that, it needs some marginal value to attract any sort of volume of users. People need incentive.
 

Because no one is on testnet2 or testnet1. If the dev's want to start it over- so be it. But the whole point is to experiment with an economy AND the technical possibilities with bitcoin which are anathema for mainline bitcoin.


How exactly are things ruined for developers? The only developers that could possibly be harmed from lots of people mining are...miners. Right? Anything else you might develop would require testers, right? That's the whole point. Testnet is a wasteland. Lots of bitcoin developers haven't even heard about testnet. YES I'M BEING SERIOUS. I would show you proof but I don't want to embarrass them, so you'll have to take my word for it.

Seriously, mainline bitcoiners are so uptight about bitcoin itself (with good reason- it's worth a ton of money) they've closed themselves off to a whole world of experimentation. Bitcoin IS an experiment. But it's gotten popular before it's been perfected. It's not even 1.0 software yet. So let us take testnet, and let us really develop it into a vibrant staging ground for bitcoin. A place where we can develop new things, try new things, test new things, without having to hear the tired old, "Don't touch the blockchain!" argument which accompanies any possible mention in mainstream bitcoin of changing things.

Fair enough, like I said you joined and then we didn't get a block for about 35-40 min. The pool has been working fine for us for the past few days  ;)

I'll reset it and wipe the data folder again to give it a little nudge. 

Oh no worries at all, could very well have been my own damn fault :)

I have a sneaky feeling you aren't the only one throwing some power at this now, not picking up anywhere near the amount of blocks we were.

yep. about 40 mins ago somebody started mining with some major hash power. We're talking about a block every few seconds. I don't know how many were solved in this timespan. Interesting. The block solving seems to have dropped dramatically in the last 20 mins though...

btclook.com

I already get them. And currently it requires NOTHING from them to use it.
The whole point of testnet is having few people on it...
Yeah sure, people will use something valuable to test something in which they don't have any interest  ::)

Nice job ignoring my question about copy-pasting Bitcoin with different genesis block

Lots of Afghan girls never went to schools. YES I'M BEING SERIOUS. Let's not tell them about it and let's make its access even harder.
Anyway, how is that justify not to copy-paste Bitcoin?

uh sorry I didn't mean to avoid your question I thought I was obvious with the answer "Because no one is on" which is the same answer to why not copy and paste. Virtually every single coin in the alt coin forums is the result of 'copy and paste' and thats not really working out so well.

More specifically- I want to avoid the problem of untrusted binaries. No one bothers to read the source code here. Especially in situations like what terracoin went through when there was update after update after update. The point of using stock bitcoin testnet is that you can trust the code. You don't have to worry that there is a trojan or anything like that. It's safe and secure. Thats why.

EDIT: As for the Afghan girls, if it's related, I don't get it. My point was that people don't know about testnet and I want to change that. Testnet should be (in my mind) as well known as bitcoin is. (At least for the bitcointalk crowd, which it isn't). If the difficulty of the testnet went to a hundred million, how would you be harmed?

I've taken the test pool offline, as this is an argument I don't really want (or need) to be in the middle of. I now have more than enough Testnet BTC for the my own purposes, so I'd happily donate some back to the faucet. If crazy_rabbit wants the "bounty" back I'll gladly return it.

Really? That's so silly. So you feel convinced that, as a developer yourself, by offering pool-mining on testnet you are somehow getting involved in an argument? On the wrong side of the argument even? It's disappointing really- there are no 'bitcoin police' you know. It's not written anywhere in the bible of bitcoin that you "can't pool mine testnet bitcoins". As you wish, just disappointing to hear you've been bullied into something.

Please send the coins to: mrhz5ZgSF3C1BSdyCKt3gEdhKoRL5BNfJV

That is the address of TP's testnet faucet.

I've been part of this community for a very short time, so I don't yet have a strong enough opinion to be on either side of the debate. The diplomatic thing to do in this situation is to step out of the way. :)


http://testnet.btclook.com/#/txn/a469b22177bd5052a1c3db45bdbdc74208aa908048e19f3d5a74de2774066411