Bitcoin Forum

A project of ASIC bitcoin mining is ongoing by our group, named btc-garden (www.btcgarden.com).  At the moment, we are at the stage of TAPE OUT.

We have started our project since Feb.2013.Also, according to our timetable, we will have around 100T hashrate online on this August or September as our best situation. The following paragraphs are written to give out a brief introduction of this item. A relative detailed version will be posted on this board & our website at the beginning of June, 2013. Any questions or advices are welcomed in this thread.

A brief introduction

1.   About Us
BTCMAN (WWW.BTCMAN.COM, portals & information site in Chinese,with 15k registered members by far) is a full time bitcoin-related team from china; we currently have a decent PV of our forum & the main site.
 https://i.imgur.com/hqGPEB0.jpg

In terms of the project of BTC GARDEN, all of our core members were graduated from CAS (Chinese Academy of Sciences), after graduation, some of them stayed there to do research works till now, while others make a living at Intel or Nvidia, I.e. we have both R&D Personnels from institute and practical engineers from mature industrial system. From a technical perspective, the difficulty of this project is really easier than many of our previous ASIC projects.
List of Us
ID：W.J, team leader, 8 years experience in system design.
ID：D.M , 3 years Intel experience in VLSI design( front-end and back-end ),5 years
Experience in system design and software design. In charge of ASIC design and software design.
ID: Xrange.G, 8 years Spreadtrum experience in VLSI design (front-end). In charge of RTL design, RTL verification.
ID: Kevin.S, 12 years HuaWei experience in VLSI design (front-end and back-end). In charge of FPGA verification, synthesis.
ID: Y.S, 4 years NIVIDA experience in VLSI design (back-end). In charge of physical design.

2.   Tech Exhibition
a)   Project Milestone
i.   March 15th: We also signed the confidential contract with the IC manufacture and got the library for synthesis and layout.
ii.   April 10th: Our RTL design, optimization and simulation were finished. We have some data to predict the specification of actual chips.
 https://i.imgur.com/opjbayU.jpg

iii.   May 16th: layout Version 1 finished.
 
 https://i.imgur.com/Nje5DSo.png
https://i.imgur.com/QFcKqLX.png
b)   ASIC brief introduction
SMIC 0.13um;
Core Voltage: 1.2V;
I/O: Voltage: 3.3V;
Core Frequencey: 400MH/s;( @vdd 1.25V);
Number of Pads; 64;
Package lqfp64;

3.   The Business Idea

see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264696.0


4.   Q & A

Q:Do you guys have any relationship with ASICMINER or AVALON?

A: No, but we do have a similar background. We also had some contacts with them through either IM tools or in person, although some of their thoughts / behaviours are hardly accepted by us.

Q: how to guarantee the transparency ? I know that a 100% provable openness is impossible in BTC world,but what can you offer as your best?

A: A daily video will be upload every day to show out how much we have digged out. It will be better than pure pictures or photos which can easily be photoshoped. We may adopt a lot of methods like this to reduce the probability we do anything dirty.

Q: Is there a list to show out all the solutions of those possible accidents? For instance, chips broken within first year; unexpected huge hashrate influent our income so much;equipments in the machinery rooms get stolen; Website get hacked;how long time is needed for deploying the first 100T;how to define the”first year”, if there are some offline-days in the first year, is any kind of compensation/refund offered…etc.

A:As we metioned on the 3rd part, we still haven’t decided which mode to choose yet, if we finally prefer Mode B to A, then all kinds of questions may be posted on somewhere at our website and will be replied asap.



Again,any questions or advices are welcomed in this thread.

hi

are you planning to sell your hardware directly?

what is the hashing speed of your chip?

you know that 130 nm is an outdated tech and asic from bfl or else are working on 65 nm?

let me know

thanks

Well this looks promising to me.

Good luck !  Will be following your announcements.

do you guys have a subscription or newsletter to get updates?

RIF, dude, the question regarding sales and chip speed are answered quite clearly, if you take the time to read.

130nm isn't outdated until it's outdated. Others may be WORKING on 65 nm technology, but it is still in R&D. It's not available yet, and we don't even know how much progress is actually being made on that.

This thing sounds like it's near release, and if that's the case, the technology will still be current at launch. Who is to say they aren't already looking to the future for a smaller wafer size as well? Cross that bridge when they come to it. For now, there's still a HUGE demand for ASIC, and 110-130nm is still plenty acceptable, assuming they're able to get their equipment online/selling within the next few months. Hell, people are still buying GPUs and FPGAs, and there are people paying 2BTC for the ASIC Miner 300Mhash USB unit. Anything even REMOTELY competitive in price with that nonsense will sell like hotcakes.

They said details will be available in June. Sit tight and let's see what they actually have to show us.

have you already arranged for the infrastructure to deploy your hash rate? the power and physical space needed for such a deployment is one of the biggest concerns for an effective rollout.

This project looks promising. Would like to see the detailed version of your business plan at the beginning of June. This is exciting news. Please keep us updated.

can i ask how much the project cost you ?

What are the graphs in the OP about?  ???

Took a few moments of puzzlement and contemplation, but do believe for the graphs, PV is 'page views' . Not sure of the other metric. But the graphs show the amount of traffic their site is getting in the lovely China part of the world.

CHINESE ARE DOMINATING ASIC MINING!!! ;D

So MODE B is just a hosted situation, meaning they don't ship you the unit correct?

 :P :P :P

This was bound to happen. Cheap labor and production cost in China + Bitcoin is a perfect storm.

Cool. How do I short AM? :)

I think everyone is using the same chips from the same supplier in China.  They all appear to have like performance and the same 130nm architecture.  That can't be coincidence.  100t is a lot of boards and a LOT of power to get up and running.

That said, my biggest problem with operations like this and Asicminer is that there is no escrow in the event their operation shuts down.  Your stock purchase instantly becomes worthless.  If they have a fire, theft, disaster, vandalism, hostile takeover, political motivation, whatever, the whole thing ends instantly.

So the ROI has to be worth it.  Buying a share to maybe see it pay for itself in a year's time isn't worth the risk of the company just vanishing before that happens.

Nope if you paid attention they are 64 pad chips at 400mhz that they seem to be designing themselves looking at the pics posted.

In a lqfp no less, ie something like this.
http://www.kosmodrom.com.ua/pic/LQFP64.jpg

At last a seemingly properly professional development without daft amounts of pre-hype.

Ok fair enough, my mistake.  I just don't understand why they would go with 130 considering power would play such an important role in their ROI.  That just lead me to believe they are using the same fab and the chips are easier to acquire.  I mean, if you're going to make your own, why 130?  Cheap? 

1 vote for lifelong dividends.

   

Cheaper, shorter time to manufacture, so there is way less risk than investing in 65nm technology. Also, electricity is not expensive in China.

With the money they can make from the 130nm, they can then migrate to more advance process.

Leave it to the Chinese to make something in 27 days while BFL takes 300+ days to come out with whatever it is they came out with.  ..... sigh T_T

Finally we see your thread here after your pre-announcement on Bitman.
I just can't wait to join the project.

Because it's not just twice as expensive to manufacture a chip on half the die size. It's ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more expensive to get a die made in 65nm than to manufacture a die for 120-130nm.

Designing and producing a 130nm chip can be done for a few tens of thousands, or maybe low hundreds of thousand of dollars (depending on how motivated and talented the engineers are, and whether they're working on spec or for salary).

Going to 65nm is probably potentially half a million up to a million dollars (or more). Anybody who wants to get into the ASIC game is pretty much going to have to start in the 120-130nm die size range, and then build enough capital in order to fund research and development into the 65nm or smaller. If it was as easy as just jumping right on the latest die size, why didn't you suggest they got straight to 45nm die size?  ::)

It's always entertaining when people who don't know anything about the industry purport to tell people like electrical engineers what's "current technology" and what isn't.

130nm process

hmm

Avalon is 110nm?
ASICMiner is 130nm?
BFL claims 65nm?

Is this right?

Could be the same chip as Avalon, but in a better package, with more VCC/GND connections and decoupling caps.  Avalon chips are hardly temp limited.  Putting it in a different package (lqfp64 for this vs QFN48 for Avalon), adding more power connections, and decreasing thermal resistance to ambient could very likely get 400MH/sec out of the same 130nm chip.  

Or perhaps they used the same public/published core design so it's basically identical regardless.  

Avalon chip buyers may very well be able to push their chips to mid 300MH/sec hashrate.

Your main problem is going to be this : Avalon is not closing orders on their chip sales until the end of 2013.  That leaves 7 months people can order chips and compete directly, toe-to-toe with you on mining.  Over 200 TH/sec have already been ordered from Avalon.  I would not be suprised to see many of the BTC produced by these miners to go back into Avalon, buying more chips, acquiring more hashing power.  Rather than trying to deal with the very ugly legal market of bitcoin mining -> USD (Mining = Money transmitter.  You have to get a license or it is illegal.  Nobody knows what will happen if you try to report your mining income of 5,6,7 figures per year and pay IRS tax on it.  They could arrest you.)

When avalon chips become to come online, expect ASICMiner shares to  go back to their true value

edit : I got avalon & AM node size mixed up i think.  this would be the same chip as ASICMiner then.  Is ASICMiner out of China as well?

Correct.

Also, companies like KnCMiner claim 28nm ASIC.  I recall another person (i cannot recall the name) mentioning they were in the works for creating 28nm asics, but would only sell to companies (like a real semiconductor company usually does..)

Also, Bitfury is 28nm i think?

Bitfury is 65nm, helveticoin claimed to have some 28nm available and kncminer wish they had 28nm :)

Base on TSMC's capacity as I know, it will take a long time for KnCMiner to wait in the queue of manufacture.
As we all know that Qualcomm, Nvidia and AMD are using 28um tech for their chips. TSMC definitely will feed these companies first.
Therefore, I think using 130um to start the game is wise.

Thanks for the announcement - very interested, leaning toward option A.

Butterfly wants to be perfect in making a 65nm with low power consumption but takes forever to get them produce, where as BTCGarden and others goes for 110nm or 130nm etc, so they can get up and running fast .. in China they probably work 24/7 to get their lines up and running. Low production costs + labor you win hands down :)

correct

I hardly think so( although I dont think its bad if it comes true ), by far, BFL still occupys an absolute advantage percentage of market shares.

Since our team is made up of associate/colleague/classmate ，all of who are fully experienced in this field, it is not a huge amount  :D . It is a little weird if I told you the exect number here,but once again, to compare with our former jobs (mainly on aerospace),it is easy.

yes ,we have . and yes you are right,thanks for reminding.

1. please re-read my thread.
2. same as above
3. it is not.    

Umm...BFL certainly occupies an absolute advantage of pre-orders.  Market share, I dont think so as that would require actually shipping a product ;)

Like WOW ..... bring it on like donkey kong !

You should have make your thread more clear ... and if you could first answer some of the question on the 1st to 2rd  page
than it will be more clearer... and remember you only have 16 post, you may have thousand of postings in http://bbs.btcman.com or other
Chinese forum in china, but here is an international forum.

What questions do you have that weren't already answered in the original post? Everything that was asked has been answered, if people will but take the time to READ.

Posted to follow...

Seems like this is a frequent question.  I d like to explain it minutely

1. In the present case (hundreds T size) , 28nm is totally unrealistic, it sounds like: pay millions more to save one dollar for electricity charges. With a rough calculation, 28nm would probably get a real advantage after hash rate achieve 50k+T

2. The thought that 28nm&45nm is "better" than 130nm is purely amateur, which nm number to choose depends on many factors, also,good optimizations in both FPGA and ASIC increase the function of chips so much,    which means that, even for 130nm/110nm, there are still  several aspects exist to improve.  

3. I have no idea about what is the real plan of bitfuty/KNC. I am not saying that theirs are fake, but I see no reason to develop 28nm at the moment,which is, extreme expensive/sounds pretty cool/highest risk and lowest return.

+1 to Mode A

Instead of letting the rich get richer by selling your equipment, go for mode A and let everyone in on it.

+1 for honest reply on 28 nm.   Love to see some honesty.

will be watching although bitcoin mining is really getting competitive.

So then how is this going to be better than what Asicminer offers now?  If you have a similar 10gh board.  You'll need, what, ten thousand boards to reach 100th?  You're really going to build that many?  

How about decentralizing the hashpower by selling part of your chips and rigs? I cannot trust in these kind of huge mining farms business model.
Also, model A sounds good even though you're not bulletproof against natural disasters. You could spread your ASICs in multiple locations all around China or you could sell part of them to your worldwide investors while securing the 100T power.

I prefer Mode A.  :)

I prefer to mode A. I think in this mode the whole project will start to run in a short time. As now time is a critical factor to get more profit of mining BTC, this mode will be better.
I am looking closely to buy some shares.  ;)

to be fair, Avalon is already doing that, and their chips are nearly identical in terms of size, hashing power, wattage, etc.

赞! Here's another vote for Mode A as well.

Are you guys located in Beijing?

Voting for Mode A and keeping an eye on this.

Bitfury's chip is 65nm that has been optically scaled to 55nm.

Q: Chips for sale?
A: (Please say yes)

Seeing the pricing you propose for 1TH in model B (1,000-1,200BTC/TH/year), I'm afraid your IPO price will be too expensive. I would take into account that Bitfountain's IPO price was 0.1BTC per share, for an expected deployment of +250TH. If I do not recall it wrong, each share is 1/400,000 of the total profit/hashrate, which means that their price for TH was 160BTC, not a hefty 1,000-1,200BTC price tag.

as I understand it they will have working asics at ipo, asicminer didn't.
significantly smaller leap of faith -> higher price

interested. ;D

Even at today's difficulty, a TH would take about a year to earn 1200BTC. Ridiculously overpriced, especially as that price only leases you the hash rate for a year.

At today's difficulty, 1 TH/s will make 1200 BTC in 27 days. (without electricity costs). You know, 1200 BTC per 1 TH/s is 1.2 BTC per 1 GH/s. Similar price as Avalon #3

True but with that you actually own hardware that can be resold etc, with this you just wait to hopefully get paid more than you put in.

Seems like we may reach an agreement with community. Mode A is also my preference.

Model A will bring more people in

Mode A +1

This sounds hokey... Why would you build and manage a 100T mining farm forever for free?

Good that you make up your own mind. very expensive product .. and seems he knows everything? yes very hokey, wrote
some stuffs put in some diagram or photo, wow he becomes somebody already..

Where can you buy shares for this project and when?

This looks interesting... mode A is better

+1 Mode A

Any Chinese user knows if the following is just FUD?


Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40264.msg2243603#msg2243603

As they say

Not sure.
Never heard this.

It's very fresh news. That happened just a few hours ago. Anyhow, can you still login and use Bitcoin exchanges/wallets (like blockchain.info or MtGox) using Telecom China?

Yes.
So far,just as usual.

Thanks, let's consider it FUD for the moment (and sorry for the off-topic, OP).

Its pretty much confirmed BS, that reddit account has only been active shortly and it is most likely a ploy to reduce shares prices of AM or reduce confidence in BTC etc.

Check your facts and don't be foolish.

The reddit account has nothing to do with this news, the original source is Ben Reeves aka piuk (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=17928), Blochain.info's owner.

Here you have it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40264.msg2243603#msg2243603

used VPN or proxy and you should not have a problem...

Count me in as interested - I'd also vote for mode A.

Mode A. Interesting indeed. 8)

Mode A definitely.

Please let us know which kind of equation did you used to determine the price per GH/s ?.
IMO it's very overpriced for a 130nm chip structure.. you're producing a huge amount of 308224 chips, you may get a discount on such quantity?.
Also consider your project as a new startup without any prototype, company nor reputation yet... May we see a detailed business plan?
 

The website listed in the OP seems to just be a Chinese bitcoin news page.

Where is all this work being done? I assume down in Shenzhen?

Electricity is cheap in China, so the difference in investment cost for 130nm and 60 or 28nm etc is not worth the electricity savings I'd guess. But if this is meant to be an on going business I'd hope they would reinvest some profit into developing a smaller form factor for the future.

I'd certainly be interested, but only if I could travel down from Shanghai to have a look at test rigs etc.

As for not being able to access bitcoin traffic, just setup a private VPN in Hongkong or something. I've found accessing bitcoin and litecoin site patchy without a VPN, so it does seem the authorities do try to block them (when they know about them).

expensive and we don't have much business details, setup and information about you. moreover is a risk in setting up a business in communist china, they/authorities can just come and  seize your mining rigs.

You have to know that if one party is too dominant in Bitcoin. It's not good for Bitcoin future, in term of security, adoption by the public etc.

So far I can see the trend of China ASIC members are becoming very dominant in Bitcoin mining. It's not good for the bitcoin future because member of public will not trust and use Bitcoin widely as they should.

To maintain Bitcoin survival and wide adoption, I would suggest a kind of mix between mode A and mode B. Something like ASICminer is doing.

BTW, i'm interested too :).

I agree that the proposed price of 1000-1200 BTC per TH/s is too expensive. Aiwill, please consider making this project more affordable for everyone involved.

No problem to access to blockchain or Mtgox using Telecom China.

Strongly suggest mode A also. I would also recommend not paying out 100% of earnings in dividends, but keep about 30% for further R&D so you can develop and deploy better and better technology as time goes on. Hope you guys succeed!

Probably he wants a quick buck and a big one  ;D

That way he can recovers back his ROI fast and all what is left is your money he is playing with ... typical smart Chinese guy  ;)
they are willing to bust their brains and their butts to get this thing going .. really hope we can received our avalon chip soon
before this China Monster comes out .. because the degree of difficulty will jump sky high..

Avalon Chip alone only costs you  252 btc versus 1000btc... my that is a lot of a difference.. for a 1TH miner

hehe ,thx.  please notice that we will def keep going on R&D on the area of not only mining but some other BTC-related products. Not a Hit and Run biz for sure.



surely you will someday.


thx for this sincere suggestion. i will think about it.

Count me in!  mode A is better.

Mode A,keping eays on

what an expensive product for 1000btc for 1TH, another manufacturer can get that for less than 180 btc..for 1TH. i wonder why you want 2 sell your 100TH? do you want to make a quick buck from all the newbies? take advantage of them.. be careful ..

OP: I also think model A is more interesting, but only because the pricing of model B seems too high.

Anyhow, as you do not seem to need funding to develop your project, in your shoes I would just mine and keep the profit, while also selling any hardware in excess, which would also help to decentralize Bitcoin a lot. Sometimes is easier to manufacture units en masse once you got everything right that to find a place with enough power/connectivity to deploy a huge operation.

My understanding is that ASICminer had to launch an IPO to raise the funds needed to develop their project from scratch, and this is why it has been such a good investment for their shareholders. As you do not seem to need money for that, the only purpose of going public would be to raise more funds than your mining operation would generate by itself, which obviously would be a bad investment for your shareholders, unless they really count on the Greater Fool Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, as you may also use the IPO funding to produce and deploy more TH.

hi , there re some misunderstandings

1. we of course need money ，needless to say some other research like hardware wallet we are preparing , the difference between DIY and mode B is :volume and speed.  with the potential investment from community we  can create 200T+ safely,without which 100T will be our best and risky.

2. Purpose of mode A  is even simpler: decentralize .

Thanks for your reply. Just for clarity, with model A you would raise the funds needed to produce the chips and assemble the units, correct? Thus, the IPO will be launched before the deployment, as per ASICminer - is this correct?

I also think that the ASICminer business model has been very clever and successful, both for them and their shareholders. If I'm correct, they launched only 200,000 shares in the IPO, each share priced very conveniently (cheap) compared to the estimated deployment, and entitled to 1/400,000 of the profits generated (which means that they are sharing 50% of their profits with public shareholds, and keeping for them and private investors the other 50%).

This allowed them to a) make the project happen, b) distribute a high return to shareholds and b) generate a very good profit for them.

This is overpriced, just like the current market price of most bitcoin mining shares :) Maybe that is why you want to sell shares ;) Or maybe you want to sell shares to finance the infrastructure roll out for hosting another 900Thash...

I would prefer Mode A, but in addition I suggest you spread your risk by selling some chips or miners too. This will also be good for bitcoin itself.

You say you will pay out 100% of profit, but how do you calculate "profit"?

Dear aiwill,

I'm very sorry to raise this question, but.. many try to scam us here with their "brand new ASIC companys" nearly every day.

Can you verify what you say?

hi, this is a good question.

"profit" here means a pure remaining profit : profit=total income- cost of equipment&consumption- R&D funds  (LTC miner,hardware wallet,next generation of garden..etc..)






I am 95% sure that we will adopt Mode A, which means we will finish them all by DIY. We will verify what I said after hashing.

Sounds really interesting... defo will keep an eye on this project  ;)

In the better interest of both the Bitcoin community and yourself as a business, I suggest that you design and manufacture the most efficient chip you can with your own funds, then become a wholesale provider with a reasonable entry point price of $1,500 to $3,000 per x amount of chips. Sell chips to everyone... everywhere.

The mining community has matured and with the butterfly fiasco what is needed is a serious intelligent group with chips in hand and reliable shipping methods.

I think claims on here to produce hundreds of terahashes will be met with extreme resistance and skepticism. I for one would not invest in your farm. Asicminer has made it clear that they would never mine more than 35% of the network. I own Asicminer shares. Avalon produced and has shipped over 500 working units and now wholesales chips to protect the network. I own an Avalon.

YOU WANT MY MONEY? RESPECT THE NETWORK

He only answers selected question, why because he is a CEO and feel that his company is bigger than alibaba...
thank goodness not all Chinese are like him.

Mode A is more interesting for me. Keeping my eyes on this project.  :)

Sell the hardware! In a gold rush sell spades.

+1  8)

+1

Good to hear that and hope you can success.

Model A +1

顺祝商祺~

Any updates in regards to this project?

Coming Soon^TM (http://www.btcgarden.com)

maybe his project went south

let's wait for 2 weeks.

Waiting for website release on Jun-18.

看上去A模式跟烤猫形式类似，是不是也像烤猫一样会继续研发自己的产品并出售及分红？

For the heck of it, I ran this through Google translate:


I can't answer the question, I just thought the translation was funny :-)

.b

we r still at the stage of tape out, after which an accurate result will be confirmed

I would answer - look at their business models. Based on those it should be a universal non-starter. They're doing exactly the opposite of what the network needs for security (keeping control off all the hash power they produce). IMO - Avoid it entirely because of this.

Probably you have some inside information please keep us posted.

grilled cat = baking cats=friedcat ;D
He want to know the difference between ASICMINER and BTC-GARDEN Mode A

I understood that, I just thought the grilling and baking of cats was hysterical :-)

.b

great！！！

watching and interested

http://bbs.btcman.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3774&extra=page%3D1

 I just have to ask.

 What on Earth is an "open stuffing dumpling shop" ?

Stuffing -Avalon Chips
Wrap - Custom boards

Shops to sell dumpling without the ability to make their own stuffing  :)

Can someone translate that? They are moving forward with their project but they are going to hold off on the IPO?

NOTE: This is a repost from BTCman.com (link below)

Too sleepy to briefly say something about the meaning:

1. On an ASIC BTCMAN mining machine project: we've already done a simple BITCOINTALK ANN ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213172.0 ) Currently, because of legal issues, BTCGARDEN aspects of the IPO itself will only consider temporarily shelved or future international operations, but the mining machine will start as soon as the retail sector, you can focus www.btcgarden.com , specific information will be BTCMAN forum, bit people Microblogging http://weibo.com/btcman, TALK forum post-post, and BTCGARDEN on release.

2. On technology: Our mining machine from the chip level, has been to the system level, all for self-development, team principal technical staff from the Chinese Academy of Sciences a few clinics INTEL, NVIDIA's ASIC senior experts. Specific technical parameters will be released later. Or posted in reference to the above outlined ANN. For all the DIY team, the stability of the machine, the chip supply chain, sales, delivery speed, upgrade advantage is self-evident.

3. On the reservation and sale: As of now, BTCGARDEN project cash flow sufficient to withhold require prepayment or scheduled payments support, release the main purpose is to promote the message, we will maximize the use of spot transactions, rather than in the foreseeable future Reservations. Of course, if the whole network operator appears 7-8 months soared other force than expected, we accelerate progress in order to expand the scale and may also take pre-sale, etc. - but the earliest pre-dates not from the date of shipment more than 50 days. Currently, the mining machine finished fastest time is to be expected from August to September. Not for sale, then the order will be shipped to consider some of the weighting factors, such as: BTCMAN Fellow, BTCSEA large volume users will certainly priority delivery.

4. On Q & A: Up to now, we have received about BTCGARDEN ASIC issues related to the mining machine, I will soon be made ​​in the form of Q & A in the update posted in this thread, members will try to reply to the question, if you have any related needs, do not open another post, please use the thread under way in this thread to reply, I will reply as soon as possible. Please note: only welcome serious issues related to all Pengci, disinformation, took the opportunity to advertise reply, all permanent ban ID.

The updated Q & A:
Q: how pricing ah? Will sell expensive?  
A: This is a pseudo-problem, or the expensive price of the product is based on the market to decide whether, at any time, consumer products than expected subjective feel "expensive", there is a means of checks and balances --- can not buy. Of course, at this stage, the two brands of domestic products have been granted but the price ridiculously low prices abroad several brands but the basics are futures, we might be a reasonable price, physical delivery, brand perfect first home.            

Q: Do you model specifically what will be? Room to sell shares to sell calculate force, or sell the mining machine.   
A: Because the legal issues, the domestic market may only sell the mining machine. International markets may consider IPO, may at any time attention.  

Q: What about the mining machine specifications? Several vendors now Which is the most reliable?  
A: Veneer probably 16G, so the mining machine should have 50G, 100G, 200G and other several options, we have a generation of mining machine may be installed flat panel displays, and thus from the PC autonomous mining, fool of operation. Several of the current ASIC manufacturer, personal point of view as follows:        
   
   KNC: most do not fly. Actually, no matter what products to buy, buy before you do a bit of understanding of the field, and then pass through the
   brain to think about, is the most basic needs.        
   
   BFL: To date still is an industry first, the amount of the highest order, but things seem to be getting funny (even in the same price today, the case
   of self-1500G of the mining machine into a 500G). Overall, though notorious, but better than some of the KNC still fly. From a technical point of
   view, there have been very serious butterfly short board, the industry's first seat of the future is almost certain to be replaced.        
   
   BITFURY: current information, the technology is good. Business plan is also doing good. But they approach being taken completely out of the
   mainstream IC industry model, risky, the failure rate is high, the probability of delay is bounced 100%.        
   
   Relying on many AVALON chip team: not unfortunately have to say. Basically similar to the open stuffing dumpling shop, but he did not only          
   responsible for homemade dumpling skin, filling completely rely on the introduction of the supply, apply the netizen's words: "12-person team, two
   techniques." Remaining group of executives, managers, partners I do not know what is mainly responsible.
      In fact, currency Bitcoin as a new area of freedom, in business there are a new set of model, the current mix many angel investors do not    
   come in also for this reason: that is, unable to adapt to the modern business thinking bitcoin, as more Eupolyphaga TV shopping showy style that
   set, or come away. BTC now know how to play are smart people, to flicker, a little premature.        
   
   ASICMINER: for some reason, they will not have public comment.        
   
   AVALON: the world's first one ASIC team, no matter what the current credit crisis hit (selling customer watermelon, eat watermelon own tip on the
   grounds that help customers taste sweet and not sweet approach does not agree), or rely on than a butterfly spectrum.

Source (http://bbs.btcman.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3774&extra=page%3D1) (translated via Google Chrome)

Guys you got the meaning btcgarden is the best others are not up to his expectation or Standard, what a hocky or cocky guy and Arrogant person. ;D

You've been zerowinged!

"selling customer watermelon, eat watermelon own tip on the grounds that help customers taste sweet and not sweet approach does not agree"

- BTCGarden


(gotta love google translate)

Yummy.. watermelon.

I think (maybe) I get what he's saying. I think he is accusing that they are mining with customer hardware.

yeah, BUT WHERE ARE MY WATERMELONS?

I just dehydrated watermelon

lol，i m starting to like google translate.

To summary what I said at btcman:

1. we will sell hardware from AUG/SEP but no pre-sale, the longest possible duration between payment day and shipping day is 50days.
2. IPO will most likely be executed later than 1,  but due to some legal problem in china,there will be only international version ANN,no chinese. (I would also like to collect advices from community,which stock platform is recommanded)


Everything ,at the moment ,running pretty well. Thank you everyone paying attention to us,please  be a little more patient .

If there is going to be no pre-sale then shouldn't the hardware be ready to ship as soon as payment is received? What is the estimated date of the IPO? According to your website there is 5 days left for some announcement. Can you shed some light in regards to that?

He was arrogantly saying that June will come out but is now differ to August and September. Empty promises and a lot of BS.

hey man,

1. sry for the misunderstanding, "no pre-sale" means "as soon as" model . The "50days "means the longest possible pre-sale model we can accept. (if we have to do pre-sale finally)
2. I can hardly give out a IPO date at the moment, but i hope it can be around OCT. also, i m sure if u keep following this thread, u can get the IPO info at the earliest time.
3. 5days means the approximate date our site can be released,no more ANN will be showed out that quick. I ll update all info at btcman&here on time.

Thanks for the clarification. So there will be no big announcement until Sept/Oct right? Will continue following this thread.

OR yes a Big Or he decides to do mining on his own now and later in September/October he is going to sell shares, very smart guy .. ;)

I would suggest not putting them on a single platform, rather to keep track of them on your own (similar to AM). If you feel inclined to use a platform, then spread it out among all of them as equally as possible. Everyone has their own reasons to choosing certain platforms, best not to alienate any potential investors.

他们是骗子

Google translate:

"They are liars"

 ;D

Time seems to, why did not update it Website ;)

They also seem to have forgotten the team website countdown thing ??? ???

The fact that the team fully exposed their organization, coordination, communication skills, there are significant shortcomings.

Let's take a seat and wait.

something here http://weibo.com/2005893305/zCkYKvh04
take a moment

I saw from here
http://bbs.btcman.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3774&extra=page%3D1&page=4
The detail of miner and IPO still need several days to be ready and online.

its finally coming.   here s a lot of pics released:
the price of IPO and Miners will be published soon too.

http://www.btcman.com/uploads/allimg/130620/21333949D-0.jpg
http://www.btcman.com/uploads/allimg/130620/2133393332-2.jpg
http://www.btcman.com/uploads/allimg/130620/2133394924-3.jpg
http://www.btcman.com/uploads/allimg/130620/2133394F2-4.jpg
http://www.btcman.com/uploads/allimg/130620/2133392540-7.jpg
http://www.btcman.com/uploads/allimg/130620/21333aE5-8.jpg
http://www.btcman.com/uploads/allimg/130620/2133392H1-9.jpg

Good, looking forward ........ ;D

hmm interesting  ;)

Can't wait to get specs on the miners as well as the IPO info.

I am very interested in this.   Me and my buddy are working on a FPGA project on the side.

waiting the info of miner price  :)

watching  :)

Will you be accepting payment in anything other than Bitcoin? I'll spend a little if you just have bitcoin, but if you could stretch to Paypal i'd probably spend 3x more.

Oh jeez not again, can somebody think of something new?

Please, more detail, example...

You are right, he is very Arrogant and Cocky ..

Do you have any examples of him being cocky?

You sir are a dunce

You can't just say that and not say why! Enquiring minds need to know!!...;D

Wishing you the best for the coming IPO

Some elaboration for us silly Anglo's would be appreciated.

Ok, watching this...  8)

What is this I don't even

F Paypal and the possibility of your reversal of payment after you receive the goods.

I think he was referring that the OP has trashed KNC in the Chinese forum for 28nm being unrealistic for the current ASIC miner market .  OP says he has lived in northern Europe for several years, he observes that European typically work 2 hrs a day, 4.5 days a week. Given the 28nm technology/financial challenges in addition to European style working attitude, OP feels very pessimistic about KNC's schedule.

I actually agree with OP's opinion.

http://s13.postimg.org/9oyhv9wn7/Screen_shot_2013_06_22_at_1_31_18_AM.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/9oyhv9wn7/)

http://s11.postimg.org/u9vj9upwv/Screen_shot_2013_06_22_at_1_30_49_AM.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/u9vj9upwv/)

Obviously he's lived in a very strange part of Northern Europe. I for one can say that after 25+ years in Sweden (now live in US) and several other European countries i have met many European engineers. in my experience they are some of the best and most dedicated in the world.

Sure, 28 Nm is expensive, but if you have financial backing and technology it's by no means impossible or improbable. So far KNC has showed a lot more proof of any form of product, company, representatives, technology and time to market then anything in this thread or linked websites..

Cocky? Yeah, I'd say so for now at least. I hope they do churn out some magic budget ASIC though. Fingers crossed!

Did they specified if they will have ready-to-ship products or it's just another pre-order?

Sweden = Ericsson (Have worked 4+ years in a company in Greece they outsource amongst other nations - including China)
Finland = NOKIA

No valid argument by OP, just biased Chinese nationalism - I am used to it as we had to co-operate much with these cocky guys. Full of errors and false impressions their code and hardware. Huawei's switching centres used to got on fire lol. Now they copied Ericsson's AXE ok finally.

I would worry more about the outcome of the Chinese than the Swedish, just my 2 satoshis.

But I will go bullish on their project too (as I did with KNC and TerraHash).

Peace

Nokia and Ericsson are not so competitive when facing ruthless Chinese/Korean competitors.
I know most engineers in Huawei work more than 60 hours a week, some probably work 70 hours.

I know KNC is definitely not a scam and they will deliver the product as they promised. But, can they meet the deadline they set? I'm not so optimistic.

you re missing the point. there will be 96GH/s miner , 48GH/s miner and 16GH/s miner

hey, i guess we have to accept btc exclusively.  however u can buy extra-btc-for-this easily.

1   I m really enjoying that one refering whatever NOKIA or Ericsson.

     I grew up out of china mainland and now becoming a Chinese nationalism lol.  Since you hate chinese that much, hope you are not a shareholder of ASICMINER lol

    



2    about IPO, we ll def ask advices from friedcat(ASICMINER`S originator),hope ours can do even better than his.

When are you live????

You should all STFU with Chinese/European bullshit... It means heck all if someone is Chinese or European, if he's up for business, he's up for business. If he's not, he's not. No matter where he comes from.

+1

let the rise of the competitive asic market begin!

Hey all, I don't give a shit about nationalities!
As a Greek I have the greatest respect for nations with big history like China.
All nations have great guys + assholes. You decide where you belong.

Business is business - if I see an opportunity (like here) I am in taking my risks.

I wish I was in ASICMINER, missed that.
Prove us you belong to the hard working, honest, great Chinese like Yip Man ;)
(Been in Leung Ting's Wing Tsun 20+ years - I have gone to Kowloon many times for seminars. Many Chinese friends and certainly don't hate them. But the guys @ Ericsson China suck, sorry)

60 hours, 70 hours, 100 hours? it don't mean shit. its what you are doing during that time. IF they are sitting their jacking it to jap AV while their wait for boss to leave then its not productive time is it.

I have relatives that work for Huawei and I assure you that they are not sitting around jacking it to Japanese AV.  Not most of the time anyways, har har.  But seriously, they're pretty damned smart people so it's arrogant beyond belief to assume that your engineers are better than theirs just because they're Chinese.  I also have engineer friends in the US but this stupid belief that the Chinese won't catch up and then surpass in a lot of fields is going to leave you looking like an idiot in another decade. 

/unwatch
the last two pages are just nonsense.... >:(
stick to the topic guys. it's all about bitcoin and not about any stupid country.

Absolutely right.

Stop this silliness.  China has somewhat over one billion of people.  Europe and the USA both have hundreds of millions.  Not all good, not all bad: smart, dumb; honest, criminal; hard working, lazy.

The Chinese system is corrupt state corporatism at the top, and that has some influences on the industrial structure.  The European systems are largely nanny-state socialist  forms at the top, and that likewise has some influence.  But overall, some private enterprises are excellent, some are not, in both systems.

I will say this, though.  Someone who holds irrationally nationalistic views, and preaches or indicates beliefs in racial or systemic superiority - regardless of the race: run away with your hand on your wallet.  The temptation for them to use their "superiority" to cheat those they see as inferior is often just too great. 

This said, I've never seen, anywhere or any time, where more fools are more willing to be separated from their money (in this case, from their bitcoins), than in these hardware capers.  So, if it provides some weeks of dreams of wealth beyond avarice to feed the scammers before the dream collapses, then by all means, do so.  You can take comfort in the fact you're are far from being alone.

Ya couldn't agreed more, but I don't think he give a shit when it comes to business of making money, it does not matter if you are green, yellow, black, brown, red, white or other skin colors or if you lived in Beijing or Santiago or the North Pole if he wants to make money out of you he will. ;D

Please keep providing updates, everyone is interested in seeing new things coming. Please ignore the side-topics.

update:

1. Price for our  “Garden Miner" will be 0.45BTC/GH, the prices of all models can therefore be calculated.  This price is based on shippment Date: the end of Aug/start of Sep, any delay will make the price even lower.
2. Models of "Garden miner" include : 48GH,96GH,192GH,  power consumption is approximate 5W/GH, i.e., the biggest 192GH `s P-consumption will be around 1KW.
3. Hope the "Plug and play" functionality will be added in the first generation("Simple-operation "is always our persuit,but we cant 100% sure we can do so in the first gene)

Hope you can success.
Beat someone's arrogance to the ground.

Fuck you naysayers

So you are taking preorders or will open payments only when the units are ready to ship?

When do you expect to start your IPO?

I formally request a review unit.

Do you have prototype already?

I don't think he will have prototype.  ;D

I was thinking more along the lines of sending bitcoin and not being able to get it back if they don't deliver. Just because someone prefers to use paypal doesn't mean they're a scammer.

Fair enough, I'll be making a small test purchase in Bitcoin then. Will buy more when/if I get the miners

0.45btc at today rate is $49.5gh/s , the current market going rate was only $18gh/s. He is making a killing here. His costs for 1 gh/s could be $5 to $10 per gh/s the most.

Looks promising.
watching.!

BTC miner should be calculated in BTC.

When is the prototype ready?

count me in, I just hope it all works out as I'm sick of waiting to buy an ASIC, well I could buy the 10GH ASICMINER for 50BTC but I don't feel like getting raped at that price..

You should always compares btc to fait or dollar to find out the real costs and go from there. Can you used btc to buy food at carefour in china or one of the herbal shop in china?

No Open Day / Open House for us to visit them or a chance to fire them a ton of questions? No prototype? looking scary, he don't reply pm and only chooses questions to answer and ignore the rest

They said they will not do pre-order. Just prepare your money and buy when the miner comes out.

Who wants to buy blindly would you? if they really have this baby running in Sept or Oct and showing the mining pool that they
were in with the proof that they have so many TH on that network, and only open up their order that will somewhat proof their legitimacy. Right now they is nothing.

Too expensive, you'll have hard time to compete with KNCMiner and Bitfury if all of you 3 deliver with such price. They're both half priced.

So you can keep your questions when the miner come out. If they are not honest enough and changed some spec of the miner, even you get answers for your questions right now, is it still meaningful?

Today they are half priced. Let's see where it is the btc/usd exchange rate in September. I'd be surprised if it's not much lower.

The BTC/USD price wont be lower...

Quoted for future bump.

Today's price is $105 per BTC.

:D

Watch this space! :D

Well then looks forward to this week AMC on thursday and an announcement here by Sunday
IPO price

Wrong.

A miner is a device that basically creates BTC.
If you pay it with BTC, you are paying some BTC now to get more BTC in future.
The relative price of BTC to other currencies is almost irrelevant, i.e. it matters only because you do not pay electricity in BTC, but that is a small % compared to the cost of the miner itself.

That argument doesn't mean you are entitled to charge 40+ USD equivalent for GH. No one in their right mind would purchase miners at those prices.

Agreed. Should use how many BTC you can get from the miner to judge whether the BTC you paid for the miner is worth or not.

Yes they do and they would. The issue is availability - if someone has a product to sell now, in 30 days or 90 days then it makes a huge difference in what people will pay for the product.

AM USB devices have sold by the thousands and those devices went for $600/GH, now cut down to around $300/GH. The reason? They're available for purchase and delivery in < 2 weeks.

If someone has a product that will ship in less than 60 days, they can charge a premium over KnC, BFL, Avalon or anyone else that doesn't have a product available in significant volumes.

Yes it does.

If you make something, aren't you entitled to charge whatever you want for it?

Obviously you are entitled to charge whatever you want for it. And the free market is entitled to buy it or not buy it or debate about the cost worthiness or "slag off" the company verbally for their products being so shitty or overpriced, etc.

That's how an equilibrium is found, which will eventually happen with ASICS too.

Someone on this forum once said,
"i don't believe these miners are real. why would anyone sell a miner when you could mine with it and make $$$ that way instead." 

to which another poster replied, "because some people don't care about the profit but care about making the BTC network more decentralised and stronger and..." blah blah or someother socialist mumbojumbo.

That was a BS response. The truth is that 90% of the people selling mining equipment are charging 6 x what the device could mine in 1 month. In my opinion they are greedy. They are taking value out of the very purpose of the product. They get six month return instantly and negate all the risk onto the naive/greedy consumer. I certainly hope i am wrong and people do make a decent ROI or else the miner manufacturers and the whole BTC scene may have shot themselves in the foot.

You are in every sense right.

I don't get why we're even having this conversation. It a capitalistic, free market economy the only price that is reasonable is the one where supply and demand meet. If there are willing participants at a given cost, then the price is right, end of story.

If you want to make a ROI or profit calculation, then by all means go ahead and do so - but we all have to speculate on what mining difficulty will be, how long it will take for a product to ship and begin hashing. It will only be an estimate and you have to make a decision about whether the value is there for you or not.

If you want a cheap product ($/gh wise) that won't arrive for months at your doorstep, go ahead and buy a BFL 5Ghz/7ghz miner.

I agree, the profit driven developer would take investment money to develop the technology, mine until the difficulty starts to rise, and then distribute devices to the buyers at a targeted ROI window.  For example, an average public consumer buys a device today and receives it at a difficulty level that allows her to reach breakeven after 3-4 months of mining.  The advantage over FPGA just needs to be above the threshold that ensures adoption of the technology and the strategy works.  Giving away fast chips at low cost right now is literally throwing away potential profit, for everyone.  It's much more sensible maintain any advantage that one may have.

Have to admit that is the China advantage, Cheap Labor, Cheap Power, Plenty of resources/hardware, work like no tomorrow 24/7, and 130nm is cheap and fast. Probably all these guys already have the same schematics, design, BOM and same factory clunking them out. Important is Speed and shortest time frame. His NRE and other start up costs is very minimal so he is making a killing at 0.48btc per gh/s. He should have recover his investments before he reach 50T, so the extra 50T is profit all the way.

with production setup costs minimal in china a $17 per gh/s rate is possible and real. Only $17 for 1 GH/S.

Oh there was announcement

We hope they offer somewhere around $17 or less

When can we get more detailed information in regards to an IPO on the mining farm?

KNC is $17.50

I would rather support them instead.  China is trying to dominate.  Every dollar given to China for btc hardware lets them reinvest in themselves many times.  KNC & BFL are only using testnet.  China isn't.  Which screws you in the end.

but we need cheap cheap hardware to mine where to get them?

You get them by supporting competent companies that have direct ties without middlemen.  KNC's direct ties to ORSoC is a perfect example of this.

Obviously they haven't launched yet so I can't say they are 100% trustworthy.  But I do know you can't trust the Chinese.  I could point to way too many examples.

ASIC is a big game changer so people need to think this through very carefully on who they support.  Do not support anyone who mines with what they make.  Otherwise you will screw yourself.

They are the Factory or Supermarket to the world. Cheap things come from there. We need $10 for 1 gh/s or less.

Go with the cheapest of course, but don't support anyone who mines on anything but testnet.  KNC has claimed they won't mine with what they develop.

Please think it through.  To say otherwise means you don't understand how the growing hashrate and difficulty works against small miners.  You will only be hurting yourself.

You will make less for yourself @ $17 GH if they are also developing hardware to mine for themselves than with someone @ $17.50 GH who only uses testnet and isn't mining with your hardware.  End of story.

Do not support China.

If you are referring to Avalon who is also made in China and has been accused of using customers miners for their own mining adventure that is wrong and unethical, but Asicminer is a share venture so the hash rate are somehow distributed among the shareholders. Is they anything wrong? The fact they are increasing the hash rate dramatically is somehow concerns us. But cheap things comes from there. They are in Walmart, Kmart, Target and those tom, dick and harry stores who keep stocks of China made products.

Not referring to Avalon exactly.  Referring to companies that openly admit to what they're doing, mining with what they produce.

No you can't stop cheap Wal-Mart crap, but it isn't too late to apply the brakes to this as it relates to btc.

Yes it will end up very wrong if you care about being a small miner for yourself.  Stocks are a ponzi.  They give you shares but keep most for themselves.  Things like this are a bad fucking idea all around.  (good for them though - utilizing westerners money)

how to go after them? with expensive or cheap cheap miners? where to get those cheap cheap miners?

andddd  my eyes are bleeding.
this is one of the most off topic threads in a long time.
more info on this venture would be good. altough their projected price is a bit ridiculous
OP should be posting more relevant info more often

It's not off-topic.  This is a "venture", as you say, attempting to exploit in the same manner.

Buy your own hardware from companies that only use testnet before shipping.

This thread makes no sense

 Asic project announcement small announcement saying coming August/Sep rest random convo :)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213172.msg2573945#msg2573945

Ahh ok lol

 

But why are you so sure KNC & BF didn't mine with their own production? as the same you seems pretty sure about your claim that Chinese companies DO mine with their own production? If so that is a serious charge. Can you please let us know the details? You can't just say a man is "guilty" but can't tell us why and how, right?

My eyes are bleeding too. This is not mining hardware 101 - can we keep the topic on the new venture and leave the KnC/BFL/AM/Avalon crap to all the other threads? It's bad enough being off-topic, worse with no-evidence crap like "Ponzi" terms being thrown around. I am going to ignore the next dozen idiots that post useless crap in this thread.

+1

I'm annoyed trying to read through this thread.  Can anyone update me on where this project is?

Basically BTC Garden aims to charge $41 per gigahash and is xenophobic towards 'lazy Europeans'.

haha... and something about a grilled cat


Also - hopefully not too lazy to buy shares given they probably make up half the IPO market (for some unexplained reason).

Bottom right - unwatch.

Neext!

update:

1 ,Our IPO will start soon (in 2 weeks)

2 , Hashrate of our first batch will be around 200-300T(depend on whether & in what extent we over clock our chips),due to the problem of inadequate productive capacity of  SMIC, our first batch of wafers will be delayed to the begin of September. By far,we have prepared everything well,which means that we can start hashing immediately after we take the chips.The proportion of distribution of our chips on mining-hardware and self-mining-room depends on several factors like : how many orders we can have, the practice efficiency of our demo-hashing-room, the ROR of each of them..etc... it is also worth mentioning that we will start both of  projects at the same time.

3, To compare other teams,we at the moment have an advantage of deploying mining-rooms rather than sales&marketing. We will deploy our rooms in 3 cities (Beijing,Xi An,ShenZhen)  in the meantime. Relatively, we are considering to accept outsourcing in terms of the sales & marketing & promotions of our user-mining-hardwares. Therefore, any suggestions or recommendations relating to this is welcomed.

4, A detailed description for IPO will be published later , stock-platform will be either bitfunder or btct.co if possible, our website www.btcgarden.com will also be opened fully soon.

So err...just to confirm; are forum members allowed to suggest 'lazy Westerners' that may be capable of marketing genius, or are they assumed by you to be incompetent at that as well..??

+1 for btct.co.. :)

+2 :)

Announcement related value 0. Troll value +1. Let go of the perceived slights (I'm a "lazy" westerner) and let's move on.

As an FYI, if you are planning on IPOing on BTCT, I'd suggest putting together your prospectus now so people can vet it before it goes up on BTCT.

Very risky and what proof do they have? they don't accept Escrow? No chips to show and they are using your funds  for their project. Ya, you are right blame it on SMIC !! and wafer is done in September, look more like Nov only you can get the chip.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.msg1088043#msg1088043

No escrow, no chips and using customer funds for the project - now they're worth over $150M. Sorry, but that's the nature of the game.

Maybe you are a troll or fanboy, but he will say place your bets you lazy European ;D and make me rich.. send him the bitcoin and say good bye to your hard earn money.

I thought that just one project. How come there are two?

Hardly assuring I'm afraid.. Delay, after delay... I'm out.

Thanks for an update. Good luck with your project, please keep us updated.

Pardon me, but one of the world's leading semiconductor foundries has his - undoubtedly in comparison to the size of orders they routinely handle - trivially small order in a queue.  

Instead of stating something like "SMIC has provided us with a date of September", he states it as a "problem of inadequate productive capacity."  What. an. asshole.  

I don't know, nor care, what course others might take with this vendor, but I know what course I would take.

He didn't actually insult all westerners, or even all Europeans. In the thread he only refereed to Nordic people as being especially lazy, with 2 hour workdays 4.5 days a week. (which I guess would be coming in for an hour on Friday?)

Yes he took a kick at those Europeans..

if Garden will start IPO in 2 weeks ,i suggest Aiwill hand out the formal business plan ASAP, actually I am more worried about the suppley chain & internal operation etc. which related to the actual running of the business, rather than the tech... ;)

I would like to see a formal business plan and the structure of the business as well as how profits will be distributed. Hopefully he can get that ready so we can review it.

look like aready on BTCT ,"lock" tab~~check it out and share your point~~

Contract & Prospectus
Locked!   This asset has been locked by the BTC-TC admins.
Ticker   STOCK: BTCGARDEN
Moderator Score   0  (0/0)
Moderator Votes   YES 0 / 0 NO    (0 ABSTAINING -- Users with 10 or more shares of LTC-GLOBAL are allowed to vote.)
Shares   Outstanding 0 / 2400000 Issued
Issuer   btcgarden <admin@btcgarden.com>
Website   http://www.btcgarden.com
Forum   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213172.0
Issuer Detail   
 
[Business Name]  BTCGARDEN
[Business Location (city/state/region/country)]   BEIJING/SHENZHEN/XIAN/CHINA

[Email Address]  admin@btcgarden.com

[About your Company]  BTCSEA CO.,LTD, which was registered at Shenzhen,China in April,2013.Offices located in Shenzhen,Shanghai,Beijing,Xi`an,for mining-devices sales/ self-mining managements/websites maintenance.

 Also,a HongKong company for the preparation of offshore is on standby

[Company Website URL]   www.btcman.com; www.btcgarden.com; www.btcsea.com
[Linked-In Profile URL]   

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213172.0
http://bbs.btcman.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3774&extra=page%3D1

http://www.btcgarden.com

 

Overview:
BTCGARDEN-Stock was created for a project of ASIC bitcoin mining that is ongoing by our group, named btc-garden (www.btcgarden.com).  At the moment, we are at the stage of TAPE OUT.(LAYOUT finished on May)

We have started our project since Feb.2013.Also,according to our timetable, we will have around 200TH hashrate online on this Oct as our best situation.

 

 

Stockholder Agreement   
Initial Offering:

2,400,000 shares of BTCGARDEN,which occupies 24% of BTCSEA CO.,Ltd`s market value, will be made available to the public at btct.co. First 1,000,000 shares will be put up in value beginning at 0.0185 BTC/share,the rest of 1,400,000 shares will be issued with higher price after the first 1,000,000 shares have been sold out.

Each share has the same dividends and there will be no more additional shares to be brought in unless a proclamation in advance, which, mostly likely,caused by a big movement/progress/project(examples:new generation of 40nm chips / full custom design systems / new large-scale hashrate deployment ). To protect the interests of shareholders,BTCGARDEN will never add more than 1,000,000 shares per half year.

 

Shares
Initially,each 1 share of BTCGARDEN represents to 1/10,000,000th of the dividends of the whole 10,000,000 shares.

All of the mining profits will be paid out to the shareholders of BTCGARDEN weekly through btct.co. As its earliest,it will be start from the middle of September,2013, while our first batch of chips(200-300T) arrive and start being deployed.To save the most precious time, we have already paid for this first big-amount batch ,all shareholders can therefore expect a quicker & higher return than normal.

Each share in public has no voting rights.

Guarantees & profits

With the whole net hashrate 200TH(JULY 2013) at the moment, 1000TH is a reasonable estimate at the end of 2013, we should then concentrate on deploying our devices for self-mining till 350TH since our goal is 35% occupancy of the whole net. We have already taken a big risk to tapeout our first batch of 200TH directly(without sample chips & prototype) since we have enough confidence on our Layout ability.  Also,we will order the second batch immediately once we receive/test pass our first batch,which equal to at least 300TH more. Therefore,to compare with those potential competitors, we could have a very big advantage on production capacity in this year.We will then get a very huge return once achieve such an ambition.All shareholders will then be the main beneficiaries.


Reserved Rights


Issuer BTCSEA CO.,Ltd reserves the rights,including but not limited to the following:

1. To be in charge of the reinvestment of IPO funds.Pricing power of BTCGARDEN shares.

2. To compare with our huge expected income, the maintenance/company costs might be a small    percentage in normal ,however,any extra costs due to any kinds of accidents are still possible.

3. The power to make the desicion on issue date& quantity & value of addtional shares (up to 1,000,000shares per half year as maximum/limitation)

Big return with risks

To compare with other mining-projects,even if a very conservative estimate of our first coming hashrate -200T as example,our initial shareholders are going to have a deal equal to 0.228 BTC/GH.which is way much cheaper than any other existed similar-projects.However, since our chips are still in the stage of TAPEOUT and haven`t been tested pass ,risks are still there.

Warnings:

including but not limited to the following

1. There are still several risky factors lead to a failure of this project like : the failure of our chips;the failure of first batch`s Tapeout ;the illness or other severe health or life problems of issuers; natural damages of our mining-rooms...etc.

2. Because of several uncertain factors ,the speed of deployments of our first 200TH self-mining rooms is somehow unable to be determined exactly .(1-2 months for the whole 200TH as the fastest)

3. Besides the problem of inadequate productive capacity of SMIC ,any delay due to any other unforeseen circumstances is still possible.

Executive Summary   
* Hashing 7*24 with an overall 35% percentage of the whole network in long term.

* To occupy the market of user-hardwares and keep R & D the toppest products for Crypto currency-minning.

 

 Q & A

Q:Do you guys have any relationship with ASICMINER or AVALON?

A: No, but we do have a similar background. We also had some contacts with them through either IM tools or in person, although some of their thoughts / behaviours are hardly accepted by us.

Q: how to guarantee the transparency ? I know that a 100% provable openness is impossible in BTC world,but what can you offer as your best?

A: A routine video will be made & uploaded every day to show out how much we have digged out. It will be better than pure pictures or photos which can easily be photoshoped. We may adopt a lot of methods like this to reduce the probability we do anything dirty.

Q: Is there a list to show out all the solutions of those possible accidents? For instance, chips broken within first year; unexpected huge hashrate influent our income so much;equipments in the machinery rooms get stolen; Website get hacked;how long time is needed for deploying the first 100T;how to define the”first year”, if there are some offline-days in the first year, is any kind of compensation/refund offered…etc.

A: Some of the risky factors are inevitable, it is the nature of this business.

 

Q:Companies like KnCMiner claim 28nm ASIC.  I recall another person (i cannot recall the name) mentioning they were in the works for creating 28nm asics, will it crush yours?

 

A: In the present case (hundreds T size) , 28nm is totally unrealistic, it sounds like: pay millions more to save one dollar for electricity charges. With a rough calculation, 28nm would probably get a real advantage after hash rate achieve 50k+T

The thought that 28nm&45nm is "better" than 130nm is purely amateur, which nm number to choose depends on many factors, also, good optimizations in both FPGA and ASIC increase the function of chips so much,    which means that, even for 130nm/110nm, there are still  several aspects exist to improve. 

We have no idea about what is the real plan of those 28nm`s. I am not saying that theirs are fake, but I see no reason to develop 28nm at the moment, which is, extreme expensive/sounds pretty cool/highest risk and lowest return.


Q:What is your main purpose for this IPO?

   

A: 1 we need money for our second batch of chips ,which equal to 300T more hashrate,since we need to order the wafers in very advance,it will be too late to pay for it if we use the bitcoins we can hashout on Sep.

2 As the nature of bitcoin world, we would like to decentralise and share our incomes with community.

3 BTC-based stocks are beneficial & helpful & useful for bitcoin`s promotion in our opinion, also, as a necessary part of our company, we hope to issue this stock as a trial implementation of capital operation.


   
Q: any info of your second generation chips?


A: Most likely it will be 55/40nm chips and, LAYOUT & TAPEOUT within this year.(maybe tapeout together with our 1st-gene chips from then on)

 

 
Q: The current Btc-stock-platforms are rudimentary and immature, unforeseen events might be too dangerous to potential investors.


A:  Nothing can be absolutely safe .  As a matter of fact, BTC and all of its supporting facilities are rudimentary ,imperfect, and full of variables too. However, It is the duty for all of early investors to undertake these risks . Please deliberate this problem.

 
Q :Do your team has enough confidence on Btc in long term?


A: Yes, although there are still several really big problems exist on Cryptography currency, they are still solvable and worth paying for .

 
 

Business Description   
Purpose of this ipo

A: we need money for our second batch of chips ,which equal to 300T more hashrate,since we need to order the wafers in very advance,it will be too late to pay for it if we use the bitcoins we can mine out on Sep.

B: As the nature of bitcoin world, we would like to decentralise and share our incomes with community.

C: BTC-based stocks are beneficial & helpful & useful for bitcoin`s promotion in our opinion, also, as a necessary part of our company, we hope to issue this stock as a trial implementation of capital operation.

Current situation

Hashrate of our first batch will be around 200-300T(depend on whether & in what extent we over clock our chips).By far,we have prepared everything well,which means that we can start hashing immediately after we take the chips.The proportion of distribution of our chips on mining-hardware and self-mining-room depends on several factors like : how many orders we can have, the practice efficiency of our demo-hashing-room, the ROR of each of them..etc... it is also worth mentioning that we will start both of  projects at the same time.

To compare to other teams,we at the moment have an advantage of deploying mining-rooms rather than sales&marketing. We will deploy our rooms in 3 cities (Beijing,Xi An,ShenZhen)  in the meantime. Relatively, we are considering to accept outsourcing in terms of the sales & marketing & promotions of our user-mining-hardwares.

Definition of the Market   
We mainly focus on Bitcoin-mining and relating-hardwares sales.

Products and Services   
Tech Exhibition
a)   Project Milestone
i.   March 15th: We also signed the confidential contract with the IC manufacture and got the library for synthesis and layout.
ii.   April 10th: Our RTL design, optimization and simulation were finished. We have some data to predict the specification of actual chips.

b)   ASIC brief introduction
SMIC 0.13um;
Core Voltage: 1.2V;
I/O: Voltage: 3.3V;
Core Frequencey: 400MH/s;( @vdd 1.25V);
Number of Pads; 64;
Package lqfp64;

For more details please visit: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213172.0

                               http://bbs.btcman.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3774&extra=page%3D1

 

User-mining-hardwares

1. Price for our  “Garden Miner" will be 0.45BTC/GH, the prices of all models can therefore be calculated.  This price is based on shippment Date: the end of Aug/start of Sep, any delay will make the price even lower.
2. Models of "Garden miner" include : 24GH,48GH,96GH,192GH,  power consumption is approximate 5W/GH, i.e., the biggest 192GH `s P-consumption will be around 1KW.
3. Hope the "Plug and play" functionality will be added in the first generation("Simple-operation "is always our persuit,but we cant 100% sure we can do so in the first gene)

Organization and Management   
About Us

BTCSEA Co.,Ltd (WWW.BTCMAN.COM, portals & information site in Chinese,with 25k registered members by far) is a full time bitcoin-related company from china; we currently have a decent PV of our forum & the main site.
In terms of the project of BTCGARDEN, all of our core members were graduated from CAS (Chinese Academy of Sciences), after graduation, some of them stayed there to do research works till now, while others make a living at Intel or Nvidia, I.e. we have both R&D Personnels from institute and practical engineers from mature industrial system. From a technical perspective, the difficulty of this project is really easier than many of our previous ASIC projects.


List of Us
ID:W.J, team leader, 8 years experience in system design.
ID:D.M , 3 years Intel experience in VLSI design( front-end and back-end ),5 years
Experience in system design and software design. In charge of ASIC design and software design.
ID: Xrange.G, 8 years Spreadtrum experience in VLSI design (front-end). In charge of RTL design, RTL verification.
ID: Kevin.S, 12 years HuaWei experience in VLSI design (front-end and back-end). In charge of FPGA verification, synthesis.
ID: Y.S, 4 years NIVIDA experience in VLSI design (back-end). In charge of physical design.

Marketing Strategy   
Steps of our goal:

  a) we will DIY-deploy our first batch of 200T at Shenzhen/beijing/Xian/Suzhou at the same time once the chips finished.
  b) An extra 300TH will be in hand after we finish deploying the first 200TH(which might spend we 1-2months) because we will order new chips just after the moment the first batch of chips pass the test,the new 300TH will be a very powerful preparation for our future. (we can save 50 days at least by order it in advance.)
  c) we will then keep DIY-deploying our chips,and maybe outsource the sale of our user-mining-hardwares.
  d) The 2nd-gene chips will be finished Layout and start TAPEOUT within this year (maybe tapeout together with our 1st-gene chips from then on)

We plan to finish deploying 200T+ before the end of Nov,2013.We will then start our next generation chip`s research & keep adding new hashrates as much as we can (up to 35% of the whole network)

Financial Management   
BTCSEA CO.,Ltd will be in charge of all IPO funds .Some remarkable advices from shareholders may be acceptable but we make the final decision. We will keep updating our website to list everything in details. Any big reinvest to add new hashrate or to develop new generation products will be tell in advance.

someone from china should do due diligence. while AM has been good for investors most chinese companies turn out bad. hope this will be good investment for many but someone who can verify them would be good.

This section concerns me:

"Each share has the same dividends and there will be no more additional shares to be brought in unless a proclamation in advance, which, mostly likely,caused by a big movement/progress/project(examples:new generation of 40nm chips / full custom design systems / new large-scale hashrate deployment ). To protect the interests of shareholders,BTCGARDEN will never add more than 1,000,000 shares per half year."

It reeks of unilateral, unrestrained share dilution.

We need to see a hard limit on issued share capital and any changes beyond this limit must only be allowable with at least a minimum of 51% (preferably higher) acceptance by current shareholders.

However, theres this:

"Initially,each 1 share of BTCGARDEN represents to 1/10,000,000th of the dividends of the whole 10,000,000 shares."

So a maximum issuance of 10,000,000 shares then? With 2,400,000 issued initially?

Does anyone actually hold the unissued 7,600,000 shares at IPO? If not, then why are dividends issued on unissued share capital? Who enjoys these dividends?

If no one owns the shares, why then are dividends paid on 10,000,000 shares and not 2,400,000?

If these shares are already issued and owned, how come they can be issued at will (with proclamation in advance) at a rate no greater than 1,000,000 per 6 months?

Is the business owner intentionally issuing only 24% of share capital with a view to selling the remaining 76% over time to enrichen himself at the expense of the present shareholders? How many would be willing to buy shares in a company knowing they could be diluted 3 to 1 at any time in future, with no recourse?

There are inconsistencies here that require clarification

+1

+1

+1

Thanks for all suggestions. It s still a draft that has been being changed.  I v already updated a lot .

Aiwill, ive had a look at your amendment



Regarding this:


I am deeply suspicious. Anyway, continuing,


"
1,000,000 shares per half year is infinite dilution on an infinite time frame. This is not acceptable.


1/10 every six months is 10/10 in 5 years.


This is the classic definition on unwanted share dilution, and why people don't like it

Tl;dr

Issuable share capital needs to be limited and controllable by existing shareholders. In my opinion, allowing infinite share dilution by proclamation is totally unacceptable.

If you need funds for future development, then take a fixed percentage of profits, say 10%, for that and issue the remaining profits out as dividends and set a permanent fixed limit on the total number of shares. You don't generate funding by wantonly diluting existing share holder capital.

Thanks for your advise.

Dilution will be kept in our IPO because it can somehow help involving more people in our business without buying those very-over-valued shares from speculators. Also, since our business model is self-grown , dilution is somehow more reasonable than classic ones. The advantages for existing  shareholders can be both  lower share price & earlier dividends. Furthermore ,all reinvestments are supposed to a higher ROR which is good to everyone involved in.


We will not , those small reinvestments like new-self-mining rooms creation will be taken from profit for sure, but larger ones will be absorbed from both dilution & earning.

We might modify the limitation of dilution to a lower percentage although it will be kept . please wait for the finial deal.

So how much % of profits are being set aside for expenses and expansion? Are 100% of profits payable to shareholders or is it some other figure?this needs to be made clear. I may have missed it but i see no mention anywhere of this in your IPO text.

It will be hard for a prudent investor to accept both a variable % of profits payable as dividends and potentially unlimited share dilution.


Let's be honest: your business exists to make a profit, not to look after the interests of shareholders who are late to the party. The free market will take care of share prices and putting a cap on the future price of your shares with potentially unlimited share dilution hanging over everyone's head will punish the early investors who chose to trust you before you established a trustworthy reputation. Not to mention such a clause has the potential to make your business a lot of money as well, earned at the expense of early shareholders.

I disagree with your philosophy on dilution but I have said my peace and I'll leave it to the rest to voice their opinion.

Look forward to seeing your future revision

Be careful with no escrow he will easily run away with your bitcoin, what protection do you have for your investors? NONE !! Really Nothing and None !!

and you have No Say and No Rights and he has a bunch of waivers in the event something or anything that happens he will not be Liable !! He can comes out with a a load of excuses and disappear !!

???

What are you talking about, lol.

If I raise an IPO is because I need the funds, what would be the role of an escrow in that?

Read the complete statement: "Be careful with no escrow he will easily run away with your bitcoin, what protection do you have for your investors? NONE !! Really Nothing and None !!

and you have No Say and No Rights and he has a bunch of Waivers in the event something or anything that happens he will not be Liable !! He can comes out with a a whole load of excuses and disappear and vaporize !! "

If share dilution is so that you can involve others in the business, ie: by offering them new shares in exchange, then clearly that would be to the benefit of the other shareholders as well.

Why not enable voting rights on all shares then? Unless you plan to engage in a dilution that existing shareholders might not like? If it's in the interest of shareholders, surely they'll vote for it when it's needed.

You've given yourself terms that are far too generous for dilution and given shareholders zero recourse. We should expect absolute worst-case scenario, that you intend to issue 2 million new shares every year, devaluing the original investment by 20% a year at least.

No thanks.

What is it with all these investment schemes that seek to take advantage of people lately? It must be the incautious and the innumerate they plan to prey upon. Even if I trusted this offering, which I don't, the terms as given are awful.

Yes, but what Lohoris means is what will you escrow that protects your funds in any case?

You will escrow your funds for a promissory contract to assist in BTCGarden's fundraising. There is nothing for them to deliver in this instance aside a promissory note to release the Escrow, and all the promissory note in this instance is, is a contract with the intention to deliver a theoretical hashrate over time.

Escrow would apply of you yourself were reselling such a 'share' to another forum member that doesn't know or trust you and therefore requires a third party to verify a change of hands along with BTCGardens acknoweldegment of registration details being changed.

In the case of giving funds to BTCGarden in the first place Escrow meaningless as you cannot withhold the funds until the hashrate is delivers as promised as BTCGarden requires the funds to develop and build. Therefore this has to be a blind bet on BTCGarden with the good faith they will deliver and succeed competing against global hashrate increase, over a finite time period, with competining tech that becomes more sophisticated day by day.

Escrow offers no protection here, nothing does, there is no rubber to wear...

I've read the complete statement.

Still the escrow part makes no sense whatsoever.

Assuming $100 per BTC, 10 million shares at 0.0185 btc each would be an IPO valuation of $18,500,000. If the network as a whole is producing 100kBTC a month, - about $10 million dollars worth a month.

If the network is 1,000 THash by the end of the year, and they succeed in getting 10% of that, then they'll be looking at 1 BTC/mo for every 100 shares, which would getting about 1 bitcoin a month (off a 1.85BTC investment).

So maybe this will pay out over one or two months, but after that its' going to be declining returns as the network is flooded with cheap ASICs from all over the place.

EDIT: this was off by a factor of 10, should actually take 18 months, not 1.8 to recoup your investment, but only if the network stays still, which it won't.

I think your math is out by a factor of 10.

10,000 BTC / 10,000,000 shares = 1BTC for every 1000 shares, per month.

...or 0.001BTC per share, meaning 18.5 month ROI ignoring risk of share dilution, failure to maintain hashrate proportion etc.

Uh, yeah... you're right. It would be 18.5 months, which is a bit ridiculous in bitcoin time, especially given how unstable the hashrate is going to be over the next few months as all these ASICs come online. And of course they'd need to reinvest in new hardware to keep up so that means even lower dividends.

The funny thing is I initially thought it looked like a crap deal, then when I did the math wrong I though, huh, maybe it's not so bad... But yeah I think I forgot to include that 10% figure in my calculations even though I mentioned it :P

It's annoying, all these companies trying to rip off miners with ridiculously over-priced equipment, or in this case over-priced shares.

I'll admit up front I didn't read the details of this IPO very closely, since there is no way I'd invest in this enterprise. 

That said, though, it seems that a problem many are having is that the issue does not sufficiently distinguish, and maybe confuses, the usage and meaning of the standard stock terms : authorized, issued, and outstanding.  (See http://financial-education.com/2007/03/08/shares-authorized-issued-and-outstanding/ for example).

The only other things I want to mention are these: 

First, keep in mind that any time someone offering an investment uses the term "may," you should read that as meaning "will certainly." 

Secondly, if dilution is feasible given differences between issued and outstanding shares, and secondary offering terms are not well defined initially, expect that your position will be diluted to the fullest possible extent.

All serious replys are welcomed and appreciated. However i cannot follow upstair`s math.What is 10%? Did any part of my state mention such a percentage?    if you define variable quantities all by yourself ,you dont even need to read it at all.

We are trying to achieve 35% of the whole net in long term，it may be very hard,but we ll keep trying that.

In terms of the "may = will certainly" ，No comment. Please ignore our project and thank you.

Aiwill, you should think about the kind of relationship you would like to have with your shareholders.

One of the reasons people LOVE Asicminer shares is the fact that each share will always represent 1/400000 of the voting and dividend rights.  Asicminer (BitFountain) have retained a proportion of these shares (over 50%) to derive the funding for further investment and growth, and are demonstrating the viability of such a model without the need for further share dilution.

Secondly, the Asicminer IPO was priced very reasonably based primarily on the capital requirements of the group at startup, Friedcat knew he did not have the credentials to charge a premium for a company with no profit making history, and structured the deal accordingly.

The terms of your offer appear stacked in your favour, with very little chance of making shareholders rich, and a very high chance of making you rich.

Why not respond to the concerns being raised here by restructuring the terms of your IPO?

1. Promise zero share dilution.
2. Reprice the IPO (to say 10% or less of current valuation).  If you truly believe this is too far underpriced then add a clause to clawback a greater proportion of dividend payments for a period of time should the stock subsequently rise to a certain price (e.g. your original valuation).
3. Retain a proportion of the shares to fund future growth and to line your pockets in the event you make a success of the company.

Your advises are serious and make sense, thank you. However,I highly recommend you to learn a lot with regards to the price of large-scale hashrate deployment & the cheapest price for 40nm chips`s Layout & mass production(our 2ed gene). Then lets see whether it is over priced.

In terms of ASICMINER,

1. I have met & talked with friedcat for several times,who s a nice guy and gave a lot of advices to us. I can safely speaking that I know how to learn from AM better than others.
2. We are not at the period of ASIC`s startup,which means 7TH can never be a good start anymore, we re talking about 200th as beginning.


"10% of current valuation", refers to this, I d going to show you how much we have already paid and please let me know at once no matter whoever can hold such a scale of the enterprise with "10% or less of current valuation" .

In terms of " share dilution" , since the community is strongly opposed to this ,we are still re-thinking about it to be honest. We are going to keep this possibilitty, which is def not equal to "we will certainly". We will give our final offer in another offical thread once we figure this out.

Thank you, I think.

On share dilution, a good start would be to guarantee of no dilution beyond the 10,000,000 being issued (of which the company is initially retaining 7,600,000).  Then at least people can see what they are getting into.

On the price, please do provide visibility of your operational startup costs, if you do this I am sure you would have no trouble achieving an IPO sale which more than covers them.  My point was primarily that you have valued your company based on assumed success and profitability, an outcome which is not guaranteed and for which for which you are asking shareholders to take on the overwhelming majority of the financial risk.

Also - with 76% of ongoing mining revenue, I would expect the company should be capable of funding further large scale expansion (again - I do not have your specific costs, but please do enlighten me).

Could you also confirm whether dividends will reflect 100% of mining revenue, or just mining profit (i.e. revenue - cost of operation).

Finally - it would be good to understand the tax obligations you anticipate needing to comply with, and for instance whether such costs will also be deducted before shareholder profit is confirmed.

appreciate your ambititon, I will keep on following this thread, however share dilution is indeed an obstacle to gain investors' trust, what they are looking for is a certain level of investment return, share dilution makes it very uncertain.  anyway, good luck  :)

Because the point of the IPO is to make him rich, why else? He's already lost the trust of the community in large measure by being so blatantly self-serving. It's over for him. This IPO is dead.

Ya, No IPO and No Pre Order

Before people go crazy with torches and pitchforks, they are aware of the outcry and plan to make changes to the IPO (as seen above). I have it on very good authority that they are also planning an "alternative method for share ownership." Stay tuned.

Sweepstakes. no purchase necessary. Alternative method of entry. Amoe.

How big is the die? The Encounter screenshot looked a bit "empty" Which cell library is used with SMIC?

Well, with 35% of the network your shares will pay off in 5.2 months with no dilution, and very low costs to add capacity.

The 10% was an arbitrary estimate. Just because you want 35% of the network doesn't mean you'll achieve it.

 ASICMiner has 20%, and they're going to work to keep their share as well. Do you think others will stand still? How are you going to compete with KnC miners with their 28nm design with your what, 130nm design?

If their design works, they'll end up with far more hash/sec/wafer.  They might be more constrained on the number of wafers that they can get made at 28nm rather then 130 - but still, you don't know that for sure.

And how do you know there isn't some other group with chips as high density as KnC's planning on dominating a certain % of the network as well. (Simply writing them off as Lazy Nordics who only work 2 hours a day 4.5 days a week is not going to cut it, btw)

And here's the thing, if you have 10 groups aiming control 20% of the network, then some of those groups are going to lose.  What assurances do investors have that you'll be the winner here?

As far as I can tell, there aren't any.  My guess you won't even achieve 10% of the network.  Things aren't where they are when Asicminer and Avalon started up.  You can't just throw a few hundred BTC worth of money to design cheapo IC anymore. 

I apologize for how long it has taken, but I have finally had a chance to read through the prospectus, check out the websites, and read through this thread.

The asset admin lock has been removed.  The issuer can remove the issuer lock whenever they are ready for voting to begin.  I strongly recommend making sure the prospectus is finalized prior to removing the issuer lock.

Cheers.

What is the difference between IPO and Pre order they are practically the same, using the your customer money to finance your venture. You don't even have a proven product to show, now you have indicate your chip will only be available in October, blaming the fab and other excuses. Remember no IPO.

THANK YOU BURNSIDE.  Also, big +1 for the final decision u made relating to USA BTCers.