Bitcoin Forum

Hi, would like to introduce my service here and make it the official thread for suggestions, comments and all related to my escrow service.

What is BTCrow:

Btcrow.com is an escrow service who protect both sellers and buyer for bitcoins only. It didn't track data such as email and other personal informations. It's simple to use and provide a resolution center in case of dispute. Buyer can release the funds when they receive goods or service and seller know that the buyer have the needed coins to pay him.

Why BTCrow:

I searched on on the web to find escrow service for bitcoin and I found 2 of them very interresting. They are simple and work great except at one level: They do not really protect the seller.

I mean that if I'm a seller and want to sell goods to a bitcoin holder, then I use current escrow service and it show me that the buyer have the funds to complete the transaction, but, the buyer still have full control over his funds, mean that he
1) Can receive the product and not release the funds (wait 30 days)
2) Can receive the product and use the holded funds to make donation to EFF etc etc

So in my opinion this is not protecting the seller cause he can loose money by sending product and not receiving a single bitcoin.

BTCrow provide a resolution center wich provide to both party the security that they will receive what promised (funds / product or service).

Let me know what you think about it.

Thanks

BTCrow

I am very curious how can you resolve the disputes if the buyer decide to cheat on seller. Whom will you trust?

Feedback about first impressions/ associations.

I personally like crows, but a lot of people associate corvids with stealing. The thieving magpie and so on.
Definitely not an association you want to evoke if you want people to trust you with their money!

Perhaps you should choose a more innocuous bird to represent your brand.


BTChicken ? BTCrane ? BTCackling goose?

lol yea i saw the crow too

When the seller accept the transaction he must have in hand a proof of the product delivery etc to make sure the buyer don't cheat on him. If this is a service he must proof that the service have been completed.


That's a very interresting question. And I'm glad you asked. I don't know if it's like that in every countries but when you send a package for a product they will check the weight of the package and you can ask to write it in the box. Of course it still can be bypassed. With other site like ebay using paypal this still can be made, btw i'm working on this issue and if anyone have suggestion about it he's welcome ;).


oh thanks for the suggestion I choose this name cause I was thinking it must be apropriated to use a related name. I'll think about it, thanks for the suggestion.

I think an ebay-like feedback system would be the only viable way. could still be cheated but at least you have to pay escrow commission in order to fake a review.

The weight of the package can be anything the seller puts on the label, doesn't prove anything.

The clearcoin way I think is currently the most superior method for escrow, I think I'd even prefer it over the paypal "seller protection". Because the more I think about it, the more I like it (even though I'm almost always the seller). There's almost no possibility of fraud for any buyer and seller.

* as a seller, you have to ship the real product in a satisfactory manner to the buyer, or else the buyer won't release the coins

* as a buyer, you have zero incentive to screw over the seller because you are not getting your money back either way, and the seller has your name and address, you wouldn't really want to piss the seller off especially if it's a big-ticket item.

* if there's a dispute over the product description/quality, then both the buyer and the seller has an incentive to resolve it fairly, because the buyer want a good/working product, the seller want to get their money, there's no incentive for either party to screw over the other party.

I agree can be good to be inserted into the service, the thing I wanted to do is using a system without logging any informations such as login and password. So I'm thinking about it now.

And what if the buyer is not happy of what he received, and the seller say that he sent the good thing. Then the the buyer put pressure against seller to ship other things or he won't release the money. In this case even if the seller sent good item and everything is ok the buyer can still put pressure and seller won,t have any coins in his pocket.

Having another address to receive package is also possible.

For delivery services, you have to put your signature to acknowledge you received it. By doing that, you agree that you received what you expected to receive. If it is done, there is no way to complain.

That's why, when UPS/FedEx bell at your door, you should always open the box *before* signing. I did it a few times when expecting big packages which contain multiple pieces. I opened them and counted the pieces to be sure that everything was there.

If you don't agree or whatever, just don't sign the package. The service is then forced to take it back. A good way to resolve disputes would be to simply give a link to the Fedex/DHL/UPS tracking page of the package.

Without published and detailed dispute resolution policies, an escrow service is useless.

That's completely useless and borderline crazy, in my opinion. Say you buy a diamond ring from me. I ship it to you. You open the package, palm the ring, tell the FedEx guy the package was empty and ask him to take the package back.

The escrow service shouldn't give a damn whether you signed for the package or not. They can check with FedEx and see that they tried to deliver it and you refused it. That's your problem, not mine. I can't force you to accept it. I sent it. I did my part. For all I, and the escrow service know, you received it. (And in my example where you palm the ring, you did in fact receive it).

I get that your example is with big packages and multiple pieces, but the point is the same. Say you remove a large piece and the FedEx guy doesn't catch it. (That's not his job.) The principle is precisely the same.

I'm working on it, as a beta I really appreciate all comments / suggestions.

It is his job. If you refuse a package, for whatever reason, it will be sent back to the sender. Which means that the transaction has been cancelled.

This is how it works and this is partly why such services are so expensive. As long as you didn't signed the receipt, they are responsible of the package.

Of course, it is always possible to cheat. But your example of stealing the diamond in front of the guy is just the same as shoplifting.

First, it's not his job to watch you open the package and make sure you don't remove an expensive item. And no, the transaction hasn't been cancelled.

They are responsible for returning the package, but not responsible for making sure you didn't tamper with it. There is, in practice, no way they can do this anyway.

Exactly. So this does not protect against cheating. So what is its purpose?

The escrow company, if they're reputable, will not take your word that you didn't remove the item when you refused the package. You agreed to accept the package when you entered into the transaction. If the escrow agency can't confirm you had good cause to refuse the package (and they can't) why should they assume you did?

An escrow agency cannot take one party's word over the other when they have competing but equally plausible stories. If I say "I shipped him the item, he refused it, and I got back an empty box" and you say "He sent me an empty box, so I refused it", the escrow agency cannot take your word over mine.

There, fixed that for you.

ClearCoin closes
   - http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=21659

Well it seems a good escrow service is needed more than ever now.

My experience with clearcoin was that the seller was unwilling to send the product after I suggested clearcoin. He was a poster without a lot of posts and I wasn't about to trust $600 worth of bitcoin to someone I didnt know. Although clearcoin was good it did favor the buyer. As the buyer I could very easily cheat a seller and then have the added bonus of contributing to a charity to counteract all the bad Karma I just did! My bitcoin would go twice as far that way! I'm not sure there is an easy way to solve that though. Maybe I just should have asked for a valid tracking number.

Something that would be a great addendum service is using a re-shipper for a fee along with your escrow. That way it isn't up to the buyer to verify receipt. A trusted third party verification seems to me well worth whatever fees were involved.

The #bitcoin-otc web of trust is nice but you basically have to be involved in a lot of high risk small transactions to build that reputation it seems. I personally prefer to do my trading on an exchange, although I am glad it is there for us all. The reputation system though is what makes it really unique. It also is anonymous.

I think you could very easily allow people to login anonymously in a similar fashion with GPG verification if they wish to, or if that is too technical (which for me it was very confusing) then they can log in with an email and password verification. Every undisputed transaction should reward the person a few points of trust rating, disputed but resolved transactions be listed as well as disputed unresolved transactions.

Seeing someone rated on an escrow service would certainly do a lot to instill trust.

Why not make a service that has the Buyer send Bitcoins to the Escrow and Seller send Product to the Escrow. The Seller would also have to include his Wallet Address and Description of whats being shipped. And the Buyer would provide the End Shipping Address. Once the Escrow receives and confirms both, he ships the package to the Buyer and releases funds to the Seller.

Advantage-
-As long as the Escrow is trustworthy, this system takes into account the empty box situation

Disadvantage-
-Service costs more
-Longer shipping time
-More work on the escrows

If anything you can use this type of service for more secure transactions. And also offer the quick transaction for people who rather have less security.

In fact this is exactly why I started this escrow service, I believe that both buyers and sellers need to be secured and protected against each others.

I'm currently thinking about the trust "feedback" for escrow users. But the point is I want to keep it anonymous without email or anything related to the real person behind account. I'll probably use certificate such as Webmoney does for loging into account. (that's easy for people who don't know technical stuff and it's great for login security).



This is an awesome solution for what people fear when using escrow. The point is yes it will involve more job and of course probably hiring more people to ship and receive packages. The bad point of this is I don't want to receive drugs and other illegal goods into my country, so if someone sell something illegal and it's intercepted to duty, then I don't want my escrow take the blame. So this can be great or not, I'm thinking about it.

Oh also wanted to told everyone, I just made a server switch and didn't configured the email info[AT]btcrow.com

If you have questions during the email migration you can reach me on this thread / by PM or with my nym on hushmail: btcrow[AT]nym.hush.com

[EDIT] I'm also available for online chat at AIM: NsoftDev

Also as a beta if you have any problems just let me know it will be a pleasure to help you durring the process.

Thanks

Maybe saying something about it in the terms or service could make people refrain from it. Like "If goods are found to be illegal, they will be reported to the authorities".

yes that's what I was thinking :).
Just want to make everyone happy at the same time of not getting into trouble.

Mail server up, I'm doing some modification to the escrow service right now. If you experience problems let me know.

Also there's someone who tried the service and didn't claim back his bitcoin (I say that because saw test into the product description) if it's really a test let me know if everything is ok for you.

Thanks

You spelled "How it work" wrong, should be "How it works", or better "How BTCrow.com works"

Hmmm yeah I should revise my english I think. thanks for the tip just updated it

Hello Again All, Due ot a HIGH DEMAND for something simillar to ClearCoin, I now let user choose what method he prefer.

1) Bitcoin Donation (If parties cannot resolve issue the cash will go to Bitcoin Faucet ( we trust in Galvin :) )
2) Resolution Center (If parties are in dispute BTCrow will be used as third party to resolve issue.)
3) Reshiping Service (Coming soon)

For the reshiping service I have some job to do to decide how I will proceed and finishing the Terms in order to secure myself and customers.

Fees also differ for the two currently options available,

1% fees for customers using the donation system
2% fees for customers using the resolution center system

If you have any suggestions / comments please let me know.

Thanks

You need something similar to an eBay rating system so that trading partners and your dispute resolution service have some additional information.  I am as interested in preventing disputes as resolving them.

heatwave.com can be integrated for a a feedback user profile giving positive or neg and neutral
maybe

You two guys are asking something very interesting, I'm actually working (in second priority) with a login system only involving digital certificate (no login / password / email) associate with a system where both sellers and buyers can rate their experiences with each others. Then other people will be able to see if they trust or not.

For new coming users to my system even if they don't have score they can still be choose donation or resolution center or reshipping service.

This is a lot of job to accomplish and i'm currently alone doing all the coding process, so this can take some time.

Why operate a percentage on the service? Surely, releasing 100,000BTC is as easy as releasing 0.1BTC? You simply need to cover your costs in resolving any disputes and maintaining infrastructure. Taking a percentage seems a bit like the existing (non-Bitcoin) system.

Perhaps an alternative approach would be to offer your services to the seller at a nominal rate - say 0.1BTC. This allows them to buy the buyer's trust by means of your reputation in the marketplace. If the transaction goes smoothly you pocket the fee without much effort and over time the buyer and seller come to trust each other and you drop out of the loop. Plenty of other merchants to work with.

However, if the buyer then decides that the goods are faulty, broken, missing etc then they have the option to open a dispute. At that point it's going to cost you to investigate (this is a worldwide service you're offering here - how many shipping regulations do you know?). So, to cover those costs you tell the buyer that you'll need a mediation fee (say 10BTC). The buyer may back down (no frivolous claims), or if they are determined not to be screwed by Sneaky Sam the seller they'll front the cash to get a chance of getting their money back (10BTC to get 100,000BTC back ain't bad). You do the investigation in the knowledge that the buyer thinks they've got a case, and mediate according to the evidence presented.

You'll need to have a very clear set of procedures present on your website so that both buyer and seller will know what they will have to present as evidence (shipping details, DHL tracking numbers, photos of broken Steinway pianos etc).

Also, remember that 100,000BTC is a lot of money and there are unscrupulous folks out there who would want you to release that in their favour. Make sure that you are adequately protected against external pressure.

Hi!

I just tried to create an escrow but nothing happens.

I filled out all the information, but nothing happens at all when I click the Create Escrow button to submit the information.

The Cancel button works and closes the little window.

Could you please check it. I am using Chrome.

Thanks,
Alex

Hi Alex, We were running hardware upgrade on our servers and you
probably hit the time frame of this upgrade. It should work now as
expected.

If you have other questions or experiencing other problems, let me know.

Thanks

Thanks, I've set it up now.

Hi everyone, Just want to thanks all new coming visitors and user of BTCrow.com, I hope you enjoy the experience using our escrow system.

A lot of people asked to publish the Resolution Center / Dispute policies.

I just did it under the "how btcrow.com works" link. You can consult them at any moment and if you have question / suggestions please post them here, It will be a pleasure to answer them.

I'm also building a FAQ so all questions are welcome :).

Thanks for all your support.

Jules
BTCrow.com
info@btcrow.com

Do escrows ever expire? The escrow I set up isn't due to be released until 16 July.

No escrow don't expire, until the funds released or dispute started the funds remain into the escrow account.

In addition, if a business can become so well-known and trusted that someone would willingly create a 100,000 BTC escrow, they should be able to charge more for that service than a comparable business that people will only ever trust 1 BTC with.

Just as a recommendation, get someone who is a good english editor to go in and correct the grammer mistakes. Your website looks professional and trustworthy but to any native english speaker the poor grammer stands out as a red flag. Perhaps post for an editor on http://bitgigs.com/

Your site looks great and I am really excited about recommending your service but this is a point that will leave a negative impression with your users.

The other issue that I think other people have mentioned is while you have general terms up you should have a very detailed document about disputes, how they are resolved, who has the final say, how BTCrow reviews and decides on disputes, and what happens if you disagree with the resolution BTCrow comes to.

Good idea, here's a start for the front page...

The first Bitcoin escrow which protects both buyers and sellers.
At BTCrow we believe that bitcoin is the currency of future, and when new technology arrives, thieves try to take advantage of it. BTCrow stops thieves by making bitcoin transactions secure.

For Buyers.
Escrow service which protects buyers' bitcoins until they confirm the service provider or merchant delivers what was promised.

For Sellers.
BTCrow protects sellers by holding buyers' funds and waiting for network confirmation that the bitcoins have been transfered.

Completely Anonymous.
We know that many bitcoin users want their freedom, so we process each transaction anonymously.

Oh one more thing, please get a new favicon.ico... the 'O' from your logo would be great... more distinct than the current icon which is used on so many sites, including this forum.

I completely understand what you say. I'm a french from Quebec and know enough english to be able to talk or follow a conversation but yes I lack grammar. So yes I take your comment and took action, will got someone on freelancer to have better english.

Btw thanks for saying that my website looks professional, I put a lot of effort into that cause I learned more advanced jquery while doing this site.


For the terms of Resolution Center, it's so complex that I'm taking more time writing it. General resolution service have been already posted into my website. If a buyer refuse a package what's happen ? I answer clearly (I hope enough for people) what is put in place in order to resolve. If all steps are completed but still in dispute then here come the resolution center. But there's a lot of possible situations, so it's hard to say what will happen. So I'm working on it to be clear on this. But at the opposite, I don,t want to release it for people abusing of it. Like user saying: "hey, if I send the package with verification process then I'll win" and taking advantage of it.

So I want to do it clear and "non-abusable".


Wow, seriously this is very apreciated, I just fixed it on the online site.


For the icon I'll ask my designer to do it, cause this is a very good suggestion.



Thanks for everyone to help me doing better business for all the bitcoin community very apreciated.

Just fully completed my first escrow through this site and it was a really good experience.

One pleasant surprise was that part of the fee you pay is used as a transaction fee when releasing the funds, so it's QUICK!

Thank you for a great site.

Thanks for using my escrow, if you have anything you want let me know.

Also yes the transaction fee for outgoing is optional but I enabled it in order for transaction being processed asap as recommended into another thread.

A rating system will be fine to implement.

Specially for some other trading systems require a proof of trust and to generate a trust system in the escrow.

The major problem with a rating system is when people will start using it without my escrow.

For example: if I see someone with 100% positive feedback with 90 transactions why I will pay fee to an escrow for very few risk of being scammed ?

I checked several possibilities but implementing the rating system while customers using my escrow seems not possible.

If you have ideas on howto make it possible you're welcome.

Hi, All just a quick hello to say that the escrow is still running. I wasn't too much present on the forum because of other project involving bitcoins :). Btw we are working on merchant tool in order to help merchant getting escrowed payment.

The Reshipping service will also be completed soon and the resolution center will be updated. A lot of work for BTCrow coming.

Let me know if you need anything.

Thanks.

Hi,

I'm looking for an escrow service, and it seems you're the only one on the market.

For you website, you should know that most people who goes to an escrow website will already know what an escrow is. (nobody will 'stumbles' there!)

In contrast, what Everyone wants to know is
1. Fee
2. Procedure if buyer file a complaint
3. How do you solve resolution

You made 1. quite  hard to find, and you didn't give any info on 2,3.

So, please answer it here.

Hi DonnyCMU, First thanks for trying to improve my escrow service with your suggestions.

For the first point I just realize that it can be hard to find if you do not browse the entire site. So I put it in the footer as everyone could have a quick look to the fees if they don,t want to read everything.

For the second point the procedure is described in detail in the "how BTCrow.com works" point 4. I'm pasting it here :

What happens if the Buyer rejects the merchandise?

Step 4: Buyer Rejects the Merchandise
When the Buyer clicks on the dispute button the Buyer confirm that he didn't accept the merchandise, Buyer must inform the Seller that the Buyer has rejected the merchandise.
The Buyer has 7 days to ship the merchandise to the Seller's after they reject the merchandise or he automatically loose the dispute and bitcoins goes to the Seller address listed at BTCrow.com. The Buyer is responsible for paying the return shipping/insurance costs.
After the Buyer has shipped the merchandise, they must sign in to BTCrow.com and enter the shipping company and tracking information into the resolution center. Buyer must inform the Seller indicating that the merchandise has been shipped.
Upon delivery of the shipment, the Seller must accept or reject the returned merchandise within 5 days or he will loose the dispute and bitcoins, minus escrow fee, goes to the Buyer's address listed at BTCrow.com.

The Seller Accepts the Returned Merchandise
If the Seller accept the merchandise, or fails to accept or reject during the 5 days upon delivery, the Seller will have accepted the returned merchandise and bitcoins, minus escrow fee, goes to the Buyer's address listed at BTCrow.com.

The Seller Rejects the Returned Merchandise
If the Seller rejects the merchandise, the Seller must inform the Buyer via the Resolution Center indicating the decision to reject the returned merchandise. The transaction will be considered to be in mediation by BTCrow.com.
BTCrow.com will hold the funds in escrow until the dispute is resolved. BTCrow.com does not assist in dispute resolution. The Buyer and Seller are to come to a mutual agreement of terms within 30 days or start the arbitration process within 60 days.

For your third question, there's no procedure written in the site for the only reason that I don't wanna see people start to abuse it. I'm in a "long" process of writing them and make sure there's no flaw that malicious people could use.

For a quick answer to your question, Our resolution center service (also called BTCrow arbitration process) will only rely on proof and on nothing else. In those words we won't buy words from any of both party except if they have concrete proof(s) of what they say is true.

Hope this fit to your need and if you have other question feel free to post it there, will be a pleasure to answer them.
Thanks

We received an interesting email yesterday asking for ssl certificate on our escrow service.

We just bought one. here's the link https://btcrow.com

We also really appreciate suggestions and comments like that. So if you have one or have questions, feel free to contact us by email or in this thread.

Hey BTCrow,

I only had enough time to skim this thread so for that I apologize.

Can you tell me how disputes will be handled for Western Union and PayPal payments. Like PayPal chargeback or a buyer claiming the Western Union was never picked up? What about other intangible items?

BTCrow,

how would you handle a "bet" btwn 2 parties with a holding period of one year?

Hi virtualfaqs, I'm glad you ask this question cause there's probably a lot of people out there who wanna know how to protect from good known "chargeback paypal fraud". With our escrow service it is very easy to evade this.

I refer to the article 12.2 b of Paypal here: https://cms.paypal.com/ca/cgi-bin/?&cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full#12. Resolution Procedures for Unauthorized Transactions and Processing Errors.

To be eligible for 100% protection for errors in your Account, you must notify us within 60 Days after any unauthorized transaction or processing error first appears in your Account history statement.


By knowing so, seller who use paypal cannot scam a buyer if this buyer wait 60 daysbefore releasing the funds. So with this the buyer cannot be scammed by the seller doing chargeback on his transaction. The seller have the same protection with us because if after 60 days the buyer didn't release the funds he can fill a dispute at our resolution center. Then show the proof that he really sent the money from paypal to the user in order the provide evidence.

Using this method the best way for us to know what's happen will be filling the "Product Description" field with "paypal to BTC (xxx.xx$ to xx.xxBTC)" while creating a new escrow.

In rare case paypal can still do chargeback after 60 days in exceptional condition: ex: people at hospital etc etc. But this is very very hard to prove to them and they should detect the scam by not doing the chargeback.

For the moment (solution coming) we do not recommend using Western Union at all. I know a lot of countries can only use Western Union but it's at 80% used for fraud.

We are currently working on a reshipping service and we will include payment reshipping like check and western union money. So stay tuned if you really need Western Union without fear of being scammed we will take care of that soon.


For the second question:
Intangible items are harder to control but not impossible, "nothing's impossible anyway". As I said our escrow only rely on proof, If a seller sell a software or digital product and any of the party open a dispute, the seller will be in need of sending us a digital product proof that we can rely on.

If you have any other questions it will be a pleasure to answer them here.

Hi cypherdoc, At BTCrow we do not have any maximum period of funds holding, so even for a year we will be able to manage it. Also for long period it should be included into the "Product Description" when creating the escrow.

We are also working with bitcoin merchant as we create merchant tool using our escrow. This will also be able to hold bet and other digital product or currency.

If you have other question we will be more than happy to answer them.

No buyer in their right mind is going to use PayPal to pay if the seller is going to hold the BTC for 60 days first. In other words you don't offer any protection which is fine. Also some credit card chargebacks have a bigger window than 60 days.


Uh... what? The Western Union is for bitcoins right? I'm not talking about those Nigerian scams.

Buyer always initiate the transaction so he always send bitcoin not the inverse. Of course 60 days take time for the seller which sent paypal payment and waiting for BTC. This is the only possible protection. We are Bitcoin Escrow not Paypal payment escrow or credit card escrow. Also you asked for Paypal and Western Union not chargeback for credit card. We also never said that we recomment using Paypal or easily reversible payment method in order to trade BTC. This way you better buy from an exchange which will do the transaction without problem, no need to use an escrow here, except if the seller offer a great deal to buy BTC.

This 60 days protection can not be fine for you, might other people may happy with it ?


I'm completely aware that using Western Union for trading bitcoin is probably the worst way to trade bitcoins. Exchange accept check in mail so it's better use it this way than using an escrow.

Let's define the buyer and seller terms since it's getting confusing. Buyer is person paying in BTC. Seller is person selling other currency, tangible, intangible good.

The majority of PayPal payments are from credit card which is what I was getting at. Also exchanges don't take PayPal. That's ok I think we're on the same page here. It's pretty much just beware of accepting PayPal which is fine.


The 60 days protection is up to the traders right? If the buyer agree to do away with it, then that is allowed?


Are we on the same page here? Western Union is one of the best ways to do this since you are doing escrow. The buyer sends the BTC to BTCrow. Seller sends WU to buyer. Buyer picks up WU and BTC is released to the seller.

Yes exactly if both buyer and seller accept those terms than this is allowed, we do not have minimum or maximum BTC holding period so it's up to both party to fix the terms first.


Problem with WU is it is ok if everything goes well, like you said if the buyer (the one who hold bitcoins in the escrow) is honest. Cause if he's not, he could just say he didn't receive money. Is the seller could proof that he really made the payment ?

I don't see any possibilities, if you have one you're welcome :). That's why a reshipping service can be useful for those transactions.

buyer pay escrow, seller send WU to escrow, escrow verify that everything is ok, then escrow send WU to buyer, buyer receive the funds and release the bitcoins.

There are some decent ways to check online that are 95% proof a WU was picked up. However if the buyer still disputes, the seller could mail you the original receipt to prove the Western Union was picked up by someone with the buyer's name.  I really doubt a scammer would bother going so far as to claim the name is correct, but didn't pick it up. You already have the scammer's BTC so it really isn't worth their time to go through such a hassle as there are easier scams. I've been advising for hundreds of virtual transactions going through escrow with the exact same scenario and there wasn't ever a single problem over Western Union pickup. By the last statement, I don't mean that WU couldn't be used for scamming, but it was pretty easy to figure out who was lying.

I wouldn't bother doing escrow for WU because there's extra fees involved and what I listed above is enough to stop 99.99% of all questionable situations. However you could add an additional service that you'd change the WU payment to PayPal for the buyer. That's something I thought about for a long time.

The reason why I brought up WU is because I want to know I can count on your escrow to make the right decision if someone claims they didn't pick up a Western Union payment. Most likely if you list the above procedure, there should never be a problem.

Thanks for the tip, I now agree with you probably one of the safest method to transfer bitcoins to cash.


This is a nice idea, did you talk doing the exchange with my current escrow or with another service. Cause if you talk doing it with my escrow I could be interested doing business with you.


Of course, the reason I wanted to build an escrow with resolution center is to try to completely keep scammers or frauder away of using it. So that bitcoins users should know if a seller don't want to use BTCrow it should put up the redflag.


BTW thanks for this reply was a good talk. Also let me know if your idea of escrow exchanger is to apply to my current escrow service.

Thanks
Jules

To all our customers, this could interest some of you:

20% lifetime discount here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35627.0

When pressing "Create Escrow" the dialog box stays open and the content doubles (another password, another link). Looks like a bug.

Hi thanks to letting us know that, could you please post more information about what browser did you used / version / OS etc in order to us to reproduce the bug. Also a screenshot would be appreciated to validate.

EDIT: Ok verified, you don't have to click on create escrow two time once you already clicked once, But I'll try to remove the button once you already clicked on it in order to initiate the transaction.

Many thanks again for that. Sent PM with special discount for this finding. :)

Thanks
Jules

Bug have been fixed, thanks a lot for reporting this.

Thanks for coupon. The bug is still there though, maybe you didn't commit the fix yet?
I can press "create escrow" many times, each press creating a new pass and url and the new text is appended. You can't expect the user to press "cancel" after pressing "create escrow" once. Instead you might want to close that box and redirect to the status url, or at least disable the "create escrow" button and change "Cancel" to "Close". This is how the text looks like after submitting 3 times:

Browser is Firefox 5

Please clear your cache and refresh the page or try using our ssl page https://btcrow.com because it works here. To confirm that you,re not seing cache you should see thoses changes into source:




Tested with FF / Chromium / Chrome on Nux

Hello everyone, we are experiencing downtime due to a power fault from our hosting provider "crucial paradigm". For more transparency here's their twitter account to see what's happen.
https://twitter.com/#!/crucialparadigm

As soon as they will get their power services will restart as normal. We already working on a cdn in order to prevent this hapenning again.

Sorry for the inconvenience and thanks for your patience.

Jules
BTCrow.com
info@btcrow.com

Our site is up and running now. If you have any questions feel free to post here we'll be happy  to answer them.

Thanks

Bump, people who leave feedback contact me at info@btcrow.com in order to receive your 20% lifetime discount.

Here's the thread also: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35627.0

Thanks

Jules

Would you consider registering your service with ECommerceBytes so that it can be reviewed there?
 - http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/pages/ratings   (Category: Payment Services)

Also, any thoughts on:
 Escrow Service for Non-BTC Merchants
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=39070.0

Hi, just checked the website: http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/pages/ratings. They ask for a lot of things: such as:

- Websites with private domain registration are not accepted. We must be able to verify your information in the WhoIs database.
- Your website must contain contact information, including your address.
- Your service must have been in operation a minimum of one year.

My service has not been open for at least one year so first I can't list it here.

Second As I explained in a thread, I won't list any address till I open a local only for BTCrow.

Quote here:

Refering post here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=37805.msg465654#msg465654

So for the listing I tried it anyway but I don't think they will approve my business.


For your other question this is exactly on what we are working. We integrate payment converter in our merchant tools and will soon start to contact non bitcoin business and bitcoin business about the possibility of accepting secured bitcoin payment.

The main problem is I am alone to code and it take lot of time to complete everything.

I'll try to speedup, but I keep security in mind so need to do code audits and pentesting in the same time which is time consuming.

BTW thanks for all your suggestion this is really apreciated.

I have an idea that will improve your service, and provide greater value to the community:

Instead of a Re-shipping function, why not have "Dedicated Inspectors" {DI} service;

The DI's would be volunteers from the community, all over the world, where the seller would need to visit and have a 3 way conference with the buyer, to make sure that the DI confirms the products being sold are to the Buyer's expectation, and then go with the Seller to make sure the Product is shipped off.  (now that's a long sentence!)

This would probably eliminate 95% off any problems with shipped goods not being what the Buyer expected, and will also give the Seller a re-assurance when a mediation claim is made, as the DI can confirm certain facts at the time of shipping.

Hence the need for a large 50-75% portion of the fee collected by BTCrow will need to go to the DI.

1. With the above DI service, you can charge more than the 1% fee (say 1.5-2%)
2. You will also probably still offer a non-DI service for 1%
3. As this service get's more popular, more people will start "volunteering" to be DI's; the income generated can become substantial for certain areas.
4. A Premium service could be charged, where you can request a DI visit a Seller (somewhat out of there normal region) and the Buy would be willing to pay a higher fee. This might be needed for large transactions, say over $10k.

I hope that makes sense.

+1.

I was thinking this same thing. Local inspectors the seller and/or buyers pick to personally verify the contents and delivery in a locality. Interesting idea, seems feasible.

Site is not responding.  Any update?

The site had experienced a distributed denial of services attack (DDos), but has been back up for several weeks.

You are handling other people's money. They are supposed to 100% understand *precisely* what procedures you will follow in all cases, and they should agree to them when they agree to use you as an escrow service. I've never heard of an escrow service with secret rules. Any scheme that leaves you discretion in what to do with other people's money is, IMO, broken. The rules should be 100% precise and clear.

Following the rules to get the result the rules entitle you to is how rules are supposed to work. It's not "taking advantage" of them.

For example, here are some very simple escrow rules:

1) The parties to the escrow agree on the amount to be escrowed and who will deposit the money. The escrow fee is taken from the deposit amount.

2) The parties to the escrow specify what courts or arbitration agencies they will use for disputes.

3) The escrow agency will release funds only on approval of both parties, upon order of a court or arbitration agency they specified in step 2, upon order from a court with jurisdiction over the escrow agency, or upon special, easily objectively-verified release conditions agreed upon by the parties. (For example, one special release condition could be if a particular party fails to present the escrow agency with proof of a particular document by a particular date, the other party gets the escrow amount.)

4) The escrow agency assumes liability only for failure to follow its own rules.

You can, if you wish, also offer your own arbitration service and permit parties to select it in step 2. But if you do this, you should practice 100% separation between the escrow and arbitration services. You can do arbitration by email.

I am offering to be an "inspector" in Australia.

If you  need to store collateral for bitcoin loans I have a lock up garage and house with contents insurance, along with a safe.

In the case that you need to verify an item exists or is as described I can  get the seller to post the item here to verify it and then forward it to the buyer.

I would  not handle silk road related items just to protect myself.

Id like to do this through btcrow.com only because I dont wish to secure bitcoin deposits myself. It would be nice to have a management console on the site to do this.

So... is anyone home? Seems like 100% of bcchanger.com users are refusing or failing to complete btcrow escrows...

How long do I have to wait to have my bitcoins released to me.. Both buyer and seller have verified payments, got confirmation from btcrow, been waiting 14 hours now. I really need these btc. I have emailed once, and sent a message on the site about my transaction.

I can see the advertisements now...


"Yo yo yo, use BT Crow for all your Escrow, Bro!"


http://images.wikia.com/residentevil/images/a/a9/Art_crow.jpg

Has anyone on this thread used the service? If so, how was it? Is it reliable, safe and secure? I as because someone proposed using this service for me to buy a BTC off him. Please let me know any info. Thanks.

bad experience with this service... received email notification from them that buyer had initiated escrow. I took this as the payment was now in escrow, after sending the GC I learned that it fact wasn't and I got ripped off $75

It should not email the seller when the money is in fact NOT in Escrow.

Damn. Sorry to hear that. Thanks for the heads up! I guess I won't be doing business.

Pretty sure "intiated escrow" does not mean "escrow is funded NOW". There are a lot of steps to go through on BTCrow, and it doesn't sound like you made it far enough into them.

Yes, very poor system for new users... obviously the fault is ultimately on me for not being more diligent but its worth noting its a bad system.

TheButterZone, have you had positive experience(s) using that service? Someone I was planning to purchase a BTC off of mentioned using that service and I didn't feel comfortable enough to go through with it.

Yes.

Here are the emails I received for the successful escrow completed on 2-4-13.


The Buyer was the person with 3.5 BTC, the Seller (me) was the person paying for their BTC. I confirmed my email, and the Buyer was notified, and told to fund BTCrow's escrow BTC address generated for this transaction.


This means the Buyer funded BTCrow's escrow BTC address generated for this transaction. I then clicked to mark the item (my payment for their BTC) as sent after sending payment.


Refer to previous caption.


Waiting...


More waiting, then I received their BTC within 24 hours.

Hi there,

Both the seller and I want to cancel the deal.  I have already funded the escrow, but he did not make the cash deposit to my bank since he did not have enough cash on hand.  How do we go forward and cancel the deal?

Mark

https://btcrow.com/contact_us.php

Sorry to hear about your loss. Below is a copy of our confirmation email that you possibly "took" as "payment was now in escrow" (emphasis added).


You're possibly the only person who has ever relied on this email as confirmation of funds received. For absolute clarity will update this email to include the wording "NOTE: NO FUNDS HAVE BEEN RECEIVED FOR THIS ESCROW. THE ONLY PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL IS TO CONFIRM YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS."


For security reasons we must confirm both buyer and seller email before we proceed with the escrow process. This ensures both parties are able to receive btcrow.com notifications.

Edit: I'd also like to note that had you contacted us privately we may have been able to arrange some compensation. But instead you've chosen to post on a public forum for recourse.

We do actually have a published service guarantee covering up to $500 USD for each escrow. Typically most of our escrows are around that amount, so most people are covered.  

http://btcrow.com/escrow_service_guarantee.php (http://btcrow.com/escrow_service_guarantee.php)

We have also been around since mid 2011, processed 1000s of Bitcoin escrow transactions, and have a proven track record of keeping client's funds secured.

The release of bitcoins is a manual process, and takes up to 24 hours. We do this manually for security reasons. Transactions above a certain amount are stored in an off-line paper wallet. Smaller escrows are stored in an encrypted wallet, and require the wallet to be manually unlocked before we release the funds.

For larger escrow amounts we also like to send a courtesy email to double check the BTC address is current.

Your cancellation was processed shortly after you contacted us.

"he did not make the cash deposit to my bank since he did not have enough cash on hand". This is exactly the type of situation where escrow protects your interests.

I made it clear above that the failing was ultimately mine (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=21544.msg1833526#msg1833526). I did not post looking seeking recourse and there is no evidence that I did anywhere, I simply provided feedback that hopefully served as a warning to others to not make the same mistake. Your tone here is more detrimental to your reputation than my post was ever intended to be.

And I never implied your post was seeking recourse. I simply stated that had you contacted us first, when it happened, we may have been able to compensate you. Even though you're the only one who has ever had this issue (that we're aware of) and the fault is clearly yours (as you've stated).


Thankfully well over 99% of our customers actually read the confirmation email. However, for complete clarity we have since added bold wording to the effect that the escrow is currently unfunded.


Btcrow.com's reputation is based on nearly two years serving the bitcoin community. We've processed 1000s of transactions, a lot of those have been very high worth. We have 1000s of happy customers. We're not aware of any customers who've suffered financial loss because of a fault on our part.

Thanks for such a speedy response, Paul.  Thank you for the refund.
Recommended.

yoyoceramic
http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=yoyoceramic

Apparently the transaction can be funded before the seller confirms their email address... this has left me in an awkward situation now.

Hope the site admin/(s) can fix it by changing the seller email address. Doh.

Any news regarding btcrow?

I'd like to use it for a transaction, but haven't seen any new transactions completed. Is it safe and reliable?

I say just use John's escrow services depending on the amount of money being handled he'll even do it for free.
Nevertheless a small tip wouldn't hurt.

I'll can be the manual escrow of your TX if you need one.

btcrow is reliable. I know the admin.

what happens if buyer gets product, marks as received too, but doesn't release escrow for the seller?

do you have some sort of auto escrow release?

This site still legit? ... I sent funds for a escrow tx, and they are still showing up as  0 funds received...even after 7+ confirmations on the network =(...

Verified payment address correct ...

EDIT: nm, it just was flagged as received.... looks like it took 8 confirmations or something...

anywho, hope rest of process goes smoothly =)

READ THIS.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=300769.0

Have I lost my funds due to a loop hole in btcrow.com terms and conditions!

EDIT had a message from btcrow.com


So I guess its a waiting game, Question is how long do I wait to see if the items actually got shipped?

I wish to thank btcrow.com for rapid replies to my messages. Also please note, I am not attacking any party involved, Those that know me, Know, I have seen more than my fair share of scams, I am merely seeking the truth and trying to make the BTC world a little safer for us all.

We don't have an auto release feature.

For this situation the seller can request release of escrow. This will send another email to the buyer with instructions of how to release the escrow.

If the buyer consistently fails to release and does not raise a dispute we will manually release the escrow.

Trying to use your service, and fund a transaction

Sent BTC  - 5 hours ago

Still not showing up on your service.

How long does this usually take????

Is this site safe enough to do a 3.85 BTC deal? (like $1500+)

They saved my butt on a BTC7 deal in September so I would say yes!

I used this site once a few months ago. There were technical difficulties at the time, but the support staff acted fairly fast.

Good service! Few days ago I got my escrow'ed 0.50 BTC in about 8 hours from escrow release by the buyer,though I didn't have any issue with the buyer therefore no dispute etc...

Did an escrow tx and buyer released funds over 24hrs ago......still nothing. 1.5BTCs. over 1500.00USD at the time. This was not a preorder so I dont know why I havent recieved my funds yet.  ???

48Hrs later, 2 emails to support with all info and......nothing. 1.5BTC  still not it my wallet.  Anybody ?

Ok so I emailed the address I actually
Recieved original emails from and got a response 30mins later. Unsure if that was coincidence or not. Anyways I think its just a small error from site nothing more. Just get nervous with that much coin action floating in space. I will update soon as I hear something or receive coins. Btw it was same email as when buyer clicked ok to release funds only this time the exact amount was listed unlike the original email confirmation.

Site is still legit !!! Got my coins, they did take a while as I mentioned from the last few posts. Sorry for the multiple replies, but if anything this just gives BTCrow more built up trust. I can say I would use again, shit happens sometimes, understandable. Thanks BTCrow for coming through.

I'm fairly certain your site is being used by scammers, similar to this post: https://localbitcoins.com/forums/#!/fraud#craigslist-scam-for-knc-jup

I contacted a Craiglist seller that insisted I use BTCRow for escrow even though we are planning a face-to-face exchange. Here is a copy of the complete email invoice he sent me, which looks pretty legit at first glance. I'm sure it's a scam, I just wanted to post it here to make sure and perhaps raise awareness if it is.

So.... is this really from you?

There has been a CL scammer trying to spoof btcrow.com emails. Most email providers flag these emails as junk because the sending IP does not match our SPF record.

Pattern the scammer uses

1. Selling mining hardware on Craigslist for BTC.
2. Sends a BTC payment address in a spoofed email.
3. Misspells the victims email address (e.g. user@gmaii.com) so their intended victim does not receive the genuine btcrow.com email.
4. Sometimes uses a fake BTCrow.com page (on free web hosting) in order to fool victims.

We have posted simple security tips prominently over BTCrow.com. Following these tips will ensure a safe transaction.

The most important factor is to confirm details of your transaction on BTCrow.com. We have added a page where the viewer must type their email address before viewing a transaction. This ensures the viewer's email address matches what we have on record.

Unfortunately some people have been scammed by this person. Most of these did not follow the security precautions or did not visit the BTCrow.com site to check if the transaction was genuine. They simply sent bitcoins to the BTC address in the spoofed email.

Has anyone had luck with them lately, used them for a TX last Friday, released funds Saturday as I am the buyer.. In any case seller still doesn't have the BTC and is obviously getting very concerned either I or BTCrow.com scammed him.

My buyer had to actually go back and release funds a 2nd time, unsure why it didnt work 1st time. I recieved letter confirming funds were released but they never appeared, buyer got back on and repeated procedure to release and they showed up in under 24hrs.

Thanks for the note, I just released them again, hopefully it will take this time..

Just wanted to follow-up and say it went well, due to the amount (over 5BTC) a manual verification took place but it was released when they did it..

Good to hear you got it taken care of! So far I have not had any problems using this service and it has all been recently within last 2 months.

I am interested to use this escrow service ...

Anyone used this recently? Is this still a good service/site to use?

BTCRow finally released the funds, but I wouldn't recommend this site to anyone, its ridiculous that manual intervention is required to release funds, even after the buyer requested the funds be released over 24 hours ago.

Agreed. Manual intervention should not be needed if the site is secured enough, everything should be automated unless we're dealing with larger amounts of $10k+ or more.

Apparently they are getting DDOS attack and you can't even use the site, so if you have any bitcoin being held hostage there may be a long time coming. Live and learn. Next time I sell ANYTHING the buyer picks his ass up and drives to my location and hands me the money.

BTCrow is doing the bitcoin community a favor by exiting the business. They are completely incompetent liars who failed me to the tune of 59 btc.

Read: Bitcoin Escrow Fraud (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1260582.0)


Ever think to update your misleading website description BTCrow?
meta description for btcrow.com:
<meta name="Description" content="Our mission is to add selectively scam online Bitcoin transactions for both buyers and sellers. Our service guarantees up to the first $10000 USD for every escrow transaction." />

I can confidently call BS on this...how dare you lie and act as if you verify payout addresses?

BTCrow is indeed a selective scammer. Good riddance!!!