Bitcoin Forum

Italy is one of the first countries in Europe where you can actually trade a house for bitcoins, our tax revenue service actually said that it's legal to use bitcoin in a deed for a house as the means of payment.

I am selling a house in Milan, Italy, 45 square meters, there is a tenant with a regular contract up to December 2019, the revenue you'll get from his rent is 600euros per month. The house is in very good conditions and it's a good investment, the price is around 60 bitcoins.

12 October 2017 EDIT:  I'm having the house re-evaluated and it looks it lost value, I bought it well before the 2012 recessiona and the market still hasn't fully recovered from that, I will update you on the price by editing this post.

22nd October 2017 EDIT: I had the house re-evaluated by agents and my asking price is now 153,000.00 euros, at the current rate of 4900 EUROS per btc that means approx 31 btc.


Buying this house is gonna be very simple, thanks to the fact that we have formal regulations form our internal revenue system (Agenzia delle entrate) stating that bitcoin is indeed a currency and can be used in deed or any contract for that matter, this means you are gonna be protected by italian laws exactly as if you were paying with fiat, this is gonna be your property, fair and square, to the name of whoever comes with me in front of the notary (italian laws require a notary to be present for all the paperwork, they are expensive! like 5.000/15.000 euros, I know, it's a ripoff just for some paperwork, but it's our law) gets ID by him and while we're there sends the bitcoins to my wallet, we'll wait for confirmations and as soon as they arrive I'll sign the deed (I can't say no once you send them or the notary will get me arrested and the house would still be transferred to you, that's the protection you'll get, amongst other things).

the reason for me to wanting to sell the house like this is that I believe in bitcoin and if I was to sell the house in fiat and then exchange it for bitcoins, which was my original plan, I would loose a ton of value, both operations are very costly in terms of fees.

so if anybody is interested in the idea please contact me for further details.

these are some links to news and regulations about bitcoins in italy, as a rule of thumb any nationality that we have a bilateral agreement with can come over and buy and own a house, please feel free to contact me stating what's the nationality of the buyer and I can provide more information.

Wired magazine:
https://www.wired.it/economia/finanza/2017/04/05/prima-casa-bitcoin/ (https://www.wired.it/economia/finanza/2017/04/05/prima-casa-bitcoin/)

The actual regulation form the relevant agency website:
http://www.agenziaentrate.gov.it/wps/file/nsilib/nsi/documentazione/normativa+e+prassi/risoluzioni/archivio+risoluzioni/risoluzioni+2016/settembre+2016+risoluzioni/risoluzione+n.+72+del+02+settembre+2016/RISOLUZIONE+N.+72+DEL+02+SETTEMBRE+2016E.pdf (http://www.agenziaentrate.gov.it/wps/file/nsilib/nsi/documentazione/normativa+e+prassi/risoluzioni/archivio+risoluzioni/risoluzioni+2016/settembre+2016+risoluzioni/risoluzione+n.+72+del+02+settembre+2016/RISOLUZIONE+N.+72+DEL+02+SETTEMBRE+2016E.pdf)

Ansa (like reuters):
http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/tecnologia/hitech/2017/04/04/in-italia-la-casa-si-paga-in-bitcoin_6a5a9395-8871-4b85-91c5-b2d390ba6e76.html (http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/tecnologia/hitech/2017/04/04/in-italia-la-casa-si-paga-in-bitcoin_6a5a9395-8871-4b85-91c5-b2d390ba6e76.html)

Edit: these are some picture of the house, its located near Piazzale Loreto in Milan, Italy.

it's one bedroom, one openspace with the living room and the kitchen, a walkway and the bathroom.
it's near piazzale loreto, via padova/via pasteur, 5fht floor, the apartment is in a central location and in very good conditions, partly furnished (the library in the living room, the kitchen table and the bed and wardrobe all belong to the house, the current pictures show the belongings of the tennant as well, it's very easy to rent this place to a couple or a single worker because it's well served and not so expensive (600-700eur per month, i'm currently renting at 600, current tennant has a contract till the end of 2019)

Full Imgur gallery https://imgur.com/a/gjcx4 (https://imgur.com/a/gjcx4)

https://i.imgur.com/hr07edi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hFdL9wk.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HMUgioZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rsP5Cog.jpg

Google maps approximate location (its not that precise address, that is just a random pick on th same road within couple of hundreds meter, I will provide the precise location to interested buyers that contact me in private):

https://www.google.it/maps/place/Via+Padova,+20,+Milano+MI/@45.4878639,9.2182585,18z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4786c6e6b175bfff:0xd4e45e2c2c4367a2!8m2!3d45.4876815!4d9.2191758?dcr=0 (https://www.google.it/maps/place/Via+Padova,+20,+Milano+MI/@45.4878639,9.2182585,18z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4786c6e6b175bfff:0xd4e45e2c2c4367a2!8m2!3d45.4876815!4d9.2191758?dcr=0)

All you did above was discuss 90% bitcoin and 10% property. You didn't bother describing the house in greater detail. Neither have you shown pictures of it's exterior and interior, it's location in Milan, design, and what's in it (how many bedrooms, toilets etc). You are selling it for about $220,000 and any potential buyer would reasonably expect more information beyond "good condition.. 45 sqm... a good investment".

My advice is to edit your post above and include pictures of the house and more information about the property. Pictures are important for real estate offers. If you want to attract potential buyers, you need to describe what you are selling in much more detail than the bitcoin part.

This is true. The seller can also post on a Classified Ads site or a Property Listing site and add more descriptions and photos. Then put the link here for us to view.

Do you have a real estate ad up? Pictures? Do you know of a lawyer that is familiar with out of the country purchasers?

sell  your house tomorrow then it worth say 1 million sell get bitcoins but what would happen if the price crashed and you could be left with a big lose I would not risk something lie that but good luck with you sale maybe it might become  the norm. 

Yes it would be much more secure and guranted. But maybe its better to see the picture of the house. Its my dream to have house in the foriegn country but I can't afford it its just a dream. But we dont know I have a friends out there wants to buy house then I can suggest to them.

I will provide pictures within a couple of days, I live about 100k from there and I will create a listing on a property site and link it back here.

I wanted to make the listing explaining first that it is legal in italy to do the transaction in bitcoins, afaik not many places in the world allow for that so I got excited and had to post it.
 ;D ;D

I listed very basic information so that you guys could understand the cost per square meter and "revenue".

yes I do, I can also help any foreigner getting their taxes right.

I worked for about 10years as a freight forwarder, loss adjuster and sales manager for an international distributor, hence I do know companies and people that could provide professional support for this transaction, let me keep stressing tho that Italy has entirely legalized the use of bitcoins as currencies, we have proper legislation about that, so you will receive all the protection that the italian law has to offer (in line with EU standards).

As I said as a rule of thumb any nationality that Italy has a bilateral agreement with can come over and buy and own a house 100% legit, this include USA and Russia and China.
You will be ID (by the notary) and I have to carry out some basic checks about your ID, I have to make sure that you're not a war criminal, a known criminal or a known scammer, after I carry out my due diligence we're set to go and the deed can be signed.

Afterward, once you are the owner of the house, you're gonna have to pay property taxes on it, when it comes to rent you're gonna have to pay taxes as well, and I can help you with that as well ( I'll introduce you to my tax consultant).

I see an opportunity here because Italy has a very mature property market (it is not a bubble) and is amongst the first countries to regulate the sale of real estate with bitcoins, hence I might be able to attract lots of foreign investors.

This is not my home, it's a second house I own and used as an extra source of income, I think it's time to risk the asset and move it to btc, I might be wrong, but I'm willing to take the risk.

Noted the thread down for once the photos are up. :)

it's gonna take a week or so, im swamped at work right now.

wow, intersting but, anybody who is interested in such deal can contact me after request of the location (address) from the seller.

I live in rome so, i don't mind going to milan which is about an hour, 45 mins by freccia rosa to view/inspect the external part and possibly find outone of more info's from the agency within these location perhap's they might of the house on sale

I think this will be ok before jumping in or if, at all you plan to pay a visit to this location:o :o


Thanks

First of all 45 square meters house is very small, plus price is high - around 230 000 USD for so small house. May be it is flat, not house ? And if there is tenant inside, then you sale real estate for profit, not for living. Important info is also, where house is located, Milan is large city, so may be it is outside city, then price can be lower.

Why not sell it when the tenant has moved out?
Or you want to sell now so you can get Bitcoins

Hi yes its a flat, I misused the english term, my bad, sorry.


sorry I don't get what you mean here.


it's in the area of Loreto-Pasteur, first ring around the cbd, residential zone.
it's a flat in an area that can easily be rented to average workers, currently renting it @600 euros per month.

I will list the house on a property website and you will be able to look at it properly with all relevant details, probably gonna take another week or so, sorry I'm swamped and I need to go there to take some good recent pictures.

Will this post become an iconic post like what Laszlo Hanyecz (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137) has done in 2010?
Will be very interesting to know  ;D

Can you post any pictures of the house? Maybe you can block off the address or something if you'd like to be safe.

Good initiative, the more people who sell with bitcoin, the more BTC is know in the world. Thumbs up!!

Great. Good luck with your sell

Good to see that there are more uses of bitcoin rather than just storing and trading. If btc can be used for the buying/selling goods and services means its the real use of the btc and cypto currencies. Will watch this thread and wishes you success for selling the house for btc and do let us know once the deal is finalized.

900€/Monthly rent for a 230,000€ property sounds fair, that's what i would get if i were to rent my place which is around 230K too.

You're talking about a residential neighbourhood, are there any AirBNB listings close to it ?
Depending on the neighbourhood/city, that can easily double your monthly income, that's a factor to take into consideration.


 I'm launching an Bitcoin Art &Luxury marketplace by the end of the month, i'm looking for real estate and would like to consider listing your place, but i would need at least some pictures lol.

Hello again guys, sorry for taking so long but I was swamped with work (I'm helping a friend set up an art business),  I had a couple of conversation with friends expert in taxes about this, I'm also having agents re-evaluate the house.

In order to sell I will have to investigate further a couple of legal issues and I'll have to find a tax accountant that is capable of tackling new territory, my current one is not comfortable doing that and is just advising to sell in in fiat and not buy bitcoins at all. I'm dumping him.

In the meantime I went to the house and took some recent pictures, I'm editing the first post but I'm still not listing it on property websites because I might contact an agency and ask them to help with the bitcoin transaction in which case they will list it. I also had an agent come over to the house and re-evaluate it, it did loose quite some value since it was bought (I bought it well before the recession and even though the market recovered since 2012 it's still not back right were it was, it's slowly raising but it's still a bit slow, banks in Italy do not offer mortgages so easily, but there's huge rental demand for the area) and I will have to lower the price, how much exactly I'll know when I talk to more agents.

The current situation when it comes to doing the transaction in bitcoin as far as I could gather from my old tax consultant and friends experts in taxes is that nobody is quite sure how I should get taxated (as the seller) if I do not convert the btc to fiat immediately (or within the fiscal year) and declare it in my tax return as eur currency.
 
I do believe that there are ways to do it, for example if I was to sell the house for gold or diamonds I would be in the same situation, but I need to find a better tax consultant to do this and not get accused of tax evasion and get huge fines.

When it comes to the buyer the situation is a lot more simple, current property taxes are not calculated on the market value of the house or transaction value on the deed, but rather on the address and the house size, the state takes care of updating those values and list them road by road, this together with the size of the house and a few more infos, like if it is a commercial property or a residential property, if it is a house with a tennant or not or if the owner lives in it are used to calculate the amount of property taxes that the owner needs to pay each year (in euros),
All of that is completely independent from the value/currency of the transaction on the deed so this is straightforward and poses no obstacle.

When it comes to a foreigner buying the house and getting taxated afterwards (including rent, not just property taxes) that too is pretty straightforward, there are laws in place to do that. You would get euros for the rent, and that has to be paid with a SEPA bank transfer, the easiest way would be to make a tax consultant your fiscal representative and get him to receive the SEPA bank transfer each month and pay taxes and then transfer the remainder to your bank account overseas, or you could just become a fiscal resident yourself (this implies actually moving over), there may be limitation based on your nationality but these have to be investigated on a case by case basis.

I'm also getting a lot of interest from other sources and a couple of people are looking at this to see if they can sell their property this way too, as I said the market is a bit slow and I see opportunities here, in this case the property is a good investment to collect rent or to move to Italy, it's very close to piazzale loreto, via padova (google maps) and it's easy to rent it to a couple of workers or a single, I rent it at 600euros easily since decades, but you could find a tennant for up to 700, you can ask an agency to take care of that for a fee, I do that myself but it is my country so it's easier to take this option.

I'm at your disposal for any inquiry, I am actively looking for a buyer and I'm thinking about opening a bitcoin real estate agency if I can make this deal happen with my own property, In order to become a real estate agent in Italy you only need to take an exam and the licence is not that expensive (less than 500euros), as I said the market is kinda slow here in Italy, foreign buyers are welcome and there's plenty of great property around that begs for buyers with liquidity, bitcoins are a very convenient currency for international buyers and we all see how this could become the norm for this kind of transaction

thanks for the support!

600€/monthly rent, not 900.
I found out the house is worth less than I originally estimated,  I'll have to check with more agents to update the price.

It still is a good investment according to the same agent that told me tehe bad news, mostly because the house is in a pretty central and well served location, I've now edited the post to show the approximate address.


yes there are indeed, around 50eur per night on the same street.

https://www.airbnb.com/s/Via-Padova-18/homes?adults=1&children=0&infants=0&source=hdr&allow_override%5B%5D=&s_tag=UHRRTmHx (https://www.airbnb.com/s/Via-Padova-18/homes?adults=1&children=0&infants=0&source=hdr&allow_override%5B%5D=&s_tag=UHRRTmHx)


I'm very much interested!

Milan is city of my dream , but now i don`t have so much bitcoins :'(

Yes some photos would help ;)

I've edited the firt post with images, here they are are aswell

https://imgur.com/a/gjcx4 (https://imgur.com/a/gjcx4)

Looks like 4th floor, no elevator. It would require a lot of money to be put into it to make it look decent. For instance doors are in a bad shape. You have bars in windows, but your lock could be picked in seconds so the security is non existent and the bars only make people inside feel like they were in a cage. The view isn't great either.
I don't know what the end price will be but an apartment like that shouldn't cost more than 20 BTC.

Correct.


No, it does not need renovation, you're under the wrong impression
Are you referring the door shown in these picture?

the door on the left of the picture.
https://imgur.com/R2L2Zt7
in that picture the main apt. door was open and you can't see the door or the lock.

the door clearly shown here
https://imgur.com/GRwg64r

If that is the door you're referring to it does not belong to this house, there is only one main door to the apartment and is shown in this picture on the far right.
https://imgur.com/R2L2Zt7




Sorry I didn't take a clear picture of the main door closed from the outside, you can kind see it from the inside, I didn't think about it because it's no issue at all to me, it's a heavy wooden door pretty standard safety, the same doors are found all over the building, and it's got a modern key, not the kind of old lock you can see in the door actually shown in the left of that picture


That arrangement (internal courtyard with balconies and the houses main doors on the balcony) it's a traditional Milan layout, that creates the issue of the windows on the balcony, the solution in these houses all over Milan are window-bars, they're only installed on the doors facing the internal balcony and the inside courtyard, the bedroom window facing the outside street does not come with bars.


You mean the views to the internal courtyard? or the view (I didn't took a picture of that) from the bedroom window?

please consider this is Milan, a house with a great view (parks, etc.) goes for hundreds of thousand of euros more, Milan is a pretty grey business oriented city.


I don't think you are being truly serious here, do you realize this is Milan and the house is pretty much in the CBD of the city?

At the time of your post 20btc at BTC/USD exchange were exchanged around 5,500.00 usd, that makes 20btc equal to 110,000.00eur, which translates to approx 2400euros per square meter.

At the time of my first post BTC/USD were at 3700usd, my first figure was 60btc which translate to approx 220.00eur, which makes it 4900euros per square meter, the price I paid for the house in the '90.

As I said I did find out the house has lost quite a bit of value since the '90s (things were going really well in Milan back then and we probably paid an above average price for the house), The house has been evaluated in the last couple of weeks by real estate agents and they valued it at approx 3400euros per square meter (lowest estimate was 3290, highest 3670).

The reason for that is location, ease of rent (considering the location and the size of the house renting it at 600euros is very easy, you can go up to 700euros and still find a tenant) and the fact that it's in a very nice building, those kind of building with the internal balcony are in high demand in Milan since the newer buildings do not follow the same lay-out (in modern architecture an internal courtyard that size compared to the building size is considered a waste of valuable construction space).

Given all of the above I think I want to review my asking price at 153,000.00 euros or 3400euros per square meter (that's what I asked the agents).

Considering I really do want to sell this property in btc and both I and the foreign buyer would have to go through some regulations loops (=headahces) to achieve the sale with btc and not fiat I might consider a btc discount of 3000euros, settling for 150.000euros in btc (at the time of the sale, no point in providing a btc amount now considering how volatile that value is).

If other buyers here are interested in properties on the 20-30btc (at current exchange rate of 6000usd) there's plenty of opportunities, foreign buyers might be more interested in vacation and holiday houses, maybe on some Italian coast line close to a beach, there are properties like that, plenty of them.

As I said in previous posts there's quite a lot of interest in Italy to sell properties in btc and I might be able to find some courageous seller like me that wants to go through with this, but don't think you are gonna get a huge discount like the one you talked about just because it's btc, on the same side I won't charge a premium to a foreign buyer just because he'e foreigner or because I know they probably paid their btc half of what they're selling them for.

My intention is not to ripp-off bitcoiners or to get ripped-off, my sole intention is to help bitcoins achieve the status I believe they should hold (transaction for international real estate sales are a perfect use case for btc).

Thanks for the response and a detailed explanation. Yes' I was talking about the doors that were visible in the pictures and the view from the window that you've posted.
As you can see potential buyers will focus on the things that are closer, clearly shown. Not the things in the background. If you want to sell it you have to show the strongest parts of the apartment. The view from the window is one of those things.

The reason why I found the price to be high is that I have been living in a number of EU capitals and have seen much cheaper places with much more light inside for less. Your price of 150000 € for 45 sqm is still high in my view because you can find plenty of much cheaper places for sale.
A quick glimpse and we got: 47 sqm, 2 rooms in Milan for 59000, so you can have roughly 2 fully furnished apartments with new appliances for the price of the one you're selling.
https://property-italy.immobiliare.it/62944684-apartments-for-sale-Milan.html
https://property-italy.immobiliare.it/63160130-apartments-for-sale-Milan.html

Hey Mate, welcome to the club who accepts crypto currencies!

We're building a classified platform where businesses such as yours can post your ads and have real time crypto coin purchase your property with them.
Would be awesome to get you guys on board @ http://ClassiCoins.Online

We're in the process of getting 100 listings before Oct 31st, so that we began marketing the platform to end users (your clients) as of Nov 1st.
Looking forward to seeing what you've got to post. Also, if you have multiple products and/or services, please post them in all the right categories, would be greatly appreciated... also use pictures to get more engagement.

Cheers!

Thanks for your response and valuable feedback!
 :)


Thanks for the comment, they are not the best pics and they don't look professional.


For sure that design provide less light inside the house than in modern condos, there's two windows, the bedroom is definitely light enough, being on the fourth floor it does get more light than the windows at lower floors.
The living room/kitchen could definitely do with one more windows (ad maybe not a black library) but the house layout just doesn't allow it, two walls are exposed to the outside, both have a window and those are the two shown, the bathroom has a fan connected to a chimney to ventilate.

Funny thing is people in Milan love and look for those houses with the internal courtyard precisely for this reason (more light and ventilation), there's little in the means of parks and greenery in Milan so they grow nice balcony gardens and basically live the internal courtyard as a private garden, in the summer everybody keeps their doors open to ventilate and you get a very communal living experience, it's the Milan tradition, that's one of the reason the house has been evaluated at that.


One is in Milano Rogoredo, and the other is in Via Cretese, both are in the suburbs outside the first ring of the city, the apt. I'm selling is in via padova loreto/pasteur, which is right in the cbd, exactly on the first ring itself, that's where the price difference comes from, it also stems from the fact that the houses with the internal courtyard with the balcony are a traditional Milan design while the two you mentioned are apartment in modern condos.

The apt. I'm selling is good for two things:

1) you work or study in Milan and need a house in the cbd, this is literally 10min walk from the Main Station (Milano Centrale) and 500meters from the Piazzale loreto Underground stop. I think you can eventually get something within the cbd or close enough at around 100.000euros but it's definitely gonna be smaller (single room and a toilet) and on a lower floor.

2) you want to make an investment and rent the place, considering one can go as high as 700 with my place a foreigner could just ask an agency to manage tenants and just get rent minus fees and taxes, in this regard this apt. is definitely in high rent demand, the further away you move from the cbd the less the demand and ease of rent for a price that would make it feasible to rent through an agency.

The main difference of course is rent amount and demand, I can't be sure of how much exactly you would rent those places for, but I'm pretty sure it would be cheaper than what you could make with this place. I'm currently renting at 600 but consider that I gave a discount to the tenant (It was 700) because we have a long standing relationship, the previous tenant was a friend of this one and basically this group of people is being renting my apt. for years now.