Bitcoin Forum

It's so easy to make one, does it make sense? But think about it, Bitcoin and Litecoin are the same thing.

I've never looked into Litecoins, as I just got into Bitcoins, but having both of them seems confusing.

Of course it makes sense to create altcoins:

Step 1: Create altcoin.
Step 2: Convince suckers to buy it by telling them it is GPU- and ASIC-"proof" even though a) it totally isn't; and b) that's not even a desirable property to have in a cryptocurrency anyway (*cough* botnets *cough*).
Step 3: Profit!

Oh, you mean does it make sense for other people to actually use altcoins? No, not at all.

YES! Way, way to many.

yep too easy to make anncoin

To many altcoins devalues Bitcoins. No good.

I never thought of it that way, good point right here.

yep

I've looked into Litecoins.

I had seen tons of alt coins, none really come near to challenging Bitcoin at all.  Time to stop this and concentrate full time to support Bitcoin.  We still have a lot of challenges before Bitcoin goes mainstream.

My main thought on this is the same, with regards to the fact that Bitcoin is still in the process of becoming mainstream, and having so many other altcoins may detract from the support behind Bitcoin.

Most lt coins never make it to exchange sites for trading. Its kinda like saying the u.s dollar is low cause the 200+ other currencies bring it down... If that was the case wouldn't the u.s push towards one uniform currency? No, Europe did that and look how that turned out for them

It does seem like a lot of these coins never make it to an exchange. But it makes sense to have a lot of them--how many currencies are there in the world right now? If we only had USD and Euro, that wouldn't be a good thing...

search shakehula has free tutorial for this. or try hazard he will code it for you for 4btc.

Bitcoin is an amazing experiment that has already changed the world.

I read this book that described the design of money and how there could be alternate forms of money that complemented national money.

The idea was very intriguing considering that at one point money was nothing more than sea shells, Freely available everywhere.

Having alternate coins are a good idea, what if someone paid people in physicscoins for doing science research, Folding@homecoins rather than the point system they use now, it would be like the airmiles points people earn, but useful to further humanity.

as a counterpoint you could have seriously flawed ideological coins like DrugCoins or Sexcoins for taking care of business, maybe hitman coins earned for doing a job. Extreme examples but the markets would decide and simple fate would destroy the less resilient communities.

yep yep

Interesting question, I think there are too many altcoins some of theme are usable most of them not. As for mining them with ASIC or FPGA I don`t know is it possible especially those that are scrypt based.

Market action tells us the real story. Yes there are many altcoins. No, there apparently are not too many altcoins since people continue to jump on them.

I consider it children trying their first bike. The more, the better.

In the end, only a few networks will prevail...

The shit that goes on in the newbies section is ridiculous.

You either haven't looked into bitcoin enough, or haven't looked into litecoin, or both.

Everyone can have their own Alt-Chain coin, there is no global overhead for new coins so why not.  The questions are do you personally care about any of them, the answer for most is nope :)

The more the merrier I say.

Here's another one:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=219308.0

Re: original question... If yes, when was the critical tipping point from "not enough alt coins" to "just enough alt coins" to "too many alt coins?"

Seems like there are a few too many at the moment.  YaCoin comes to mind.   Its hard to even trade them sometimes anymore, and the value is so low.. it is just unrealistic it seems like to use them for anything.

litecoin seems to be less profitable than bitcoin right now

I personally think that they're way to many alt coins out there and seems like new one's coming out everyday!

The number of alt-coins is a symptom of the speculative nature of bitcoin. I would argue that a large portion of the bitcoin/alt-coin community still views BTC as something that can be exchanged for currency, but not a currency itself. People are just trying to generate their own gold rushes.

let the free market decide how many is too many.

some of the altcoins have potential but many are just stupid pump and dump coins

Actually yes too many coins... too many..

Exactamundo. It's ironic how on a forum about a revolutionary digital currency system that gives people options they never had before, people are now complaining that there are too many choices.

I'd rather have to many than none at all. May the best succeed, and the pump and dumpers crash/wither away.

Can I order popcorn with BTC?

They're not the same thing. They've got different PoW algorithms and different average block times. Litecoin is an experiment based on the experiment Bitcoin, with adjusted parameters. That's about it. But yeah, we do have too many altcoins. Just take a look at that sub-forum, it's madness there! Most coins are just a pump and dump anyways!

since i started using bitcoin i have no idea of what litecoin look like

What it 'looks' like? :D Well, it looks like a Bitcoin, but it's silver, has an 'L' on it and is worth less. The block time is faster, but that doesn't matter anyways. Oh and it has a Scrypt PoW algorithm! (Doesn't matter, either!)

I think it's good, quick experiments with new technologies. Most of them will fail, and are used for pump and dump... so get some of these coins and trade them for btc  :D

No we have to many shitty coins with no added value.

Coins that tried to add value are good for although many fail. Examples are
- QuarkCoin: CPU Only mining
- Litecoin: Different transaction times
- Dogecoin: Good marketing
- Namecoin: DNS protection
- etc.

Many coins are clones that are made for the premine and dump strategy.

Yes we do, it's simply too much, but can we do?

How many coins released daily?

Too many coins but sad thing no one can stop them every day we have coin

There are way too many coins being made, can't really see a solution to the problem unless there was some sort of crypto-standard but then we run the risk of introducing regulations. 

Why would you do anything against it? It's effectively a self-regulating market no one forces you to use those coins. And also no one actually uses them. It is an experiment that has to be done, and after that we're over it. One thing that's actually good about altcoins is that we can try and implement new features and test them out. Maybe for future sidechains?

Now i am thinking about Bitcoin. But i have also heard that altocin mining is also profitable. Its becoming more profitable than Bitcoin. I am gathering information about Altocin mining. I will switch to Altcoin mining.

The main thing that is more profitable is that mining altcoins is in most cases still possible with a CPU or GPU, since there are no dedicated ASICs available for the altcoins, so everyone can just go ahead and mine them with their regular computer at home. All the altcoins have a price in BTC.

We have too many altcoins but there are some of them that implemented great technologies to innovate on the crypto-world.

Lots of them are just to "scam" or earn some money but others have great projects behind.

I like how people get so creative and go to such lengths and create their own altcoins. They even have awesome or incredible features at times. But I also think that there are too many. No one uses them and they're not accepted anywhere! I guess I'll just stick with bitcoin, man!

No alt coins have a crucial role to play in the ecosystem
http://www.coindesk.com/need-altcoins-can-get/

There are some innovative new alts but it's getting harder and harder to find them due to crazy influx of crapcoins.

It seems every new altcoin is just another attempt at pumping and dumping it. People are diversifying and trying to catch the next bubbling coin, so there are always stupid people who buy the latest hype-coin!

99% of altcoins are simply clones by just changing some magic numbers like block time and block reward, and they are created for pump and dump. So yup there are too many scam coins.

Google is the best friend for alt-coins clon developers... just take a look on it :D
We need to innovate, not to copy.

Yes we do, and they are not stopping anytime soon  :'(

I think Litecoin is the less risky alternative of Bitcoin. If you feel like the mining hardware is too expensive or you are not sure about the ROI after you put some money in btc, maybe it's better to start off with Litecoin and eventually move to Bitcoin.

I've seen people put all of their savings in btc and they ended up... broke. There is risk in everything though.

There's only 2-3 besides bitcoin that I take seriously, the rest are either irreverent or a scam.

There are a lot of altcoins and although some of them seem really promising,a big portion add nothing new and just bring more chaos.So yes,I think we are at a point where we are bombarded with altcoins and I suspect this trend will go on.  ;)

Look at this.  I think we can squeeze out a few thousand more turds:
http://mapofcoins.com/ (http://mapofcoins.com/)

I think we shouldn't care about the numbers of altcoins because sooner or later one of them will replace bitcoins.

lol...at a first, quick, read of your post I tought you were linking us to another, recent, crapcoin.

Then I clicked on it and found that cool site

thumbs up

I not agree with this theory that any one going to replace bitcoin because Gold is unreplace able and bitcoin is also

Yes we do! how can this forum handle all the trafic in the alt section?

Yes there are too many altcoins and some might not be of my knowledge yet.  :P
It make sense to those coin creators that could earn a lot from it.

and small investors are going down too much just because of these creators hypocrisy just because of this admin block many things here on this forum

The problem with the hugh amount of altcoins is that it makes it difficult to find those that are really interesting and innovative. The majority of them doesn't bring too much new to the table.

You end up getting like 10 people who just keep creating alt coins just to try to pump and dump them, and fools buy into each new coin trying to do the same thing.  You're better off if some bigger coins become bigger so there is some good use for alts instead of right now where it's just crazy and there are too many.  I'm sure some good alt ideas get buried due to how many there are.

It's actually not that hard, if you know what to look for in order to ignore the scammy coins; a pre-mine/IPO, wallets available on only one platform, not open-source code, etc.

Even if you don't count the obvious scams with premine and similar, there are still many coins that doesn't add much value, and just being a copy of another coin

More alt coins means more investment pouring into bitcoin in the end so i think they are a great thing.

Some altcoins serve a direct purpose. I can see a future for LTC as being used for microtransactions and even Doge is good for it. The only down side is that Dogecoin is now crashed in price so it makes people scared to use it. Maybe if it is stable for awhile we will see some good results. BTC costs too much for transaction fee of .0001 to use for micro transactions.

But currently this investment is going in few hands not for all most of peoples losing money in dumb coins

Actually, I'm quite sure that the vast majority of the altcoins are held by whales who were Bitcoin early adopters.

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There's no doubt about it , there are definetly too many altcoin on the market, but there are some of those altcoins that actualy offer something new to the table.
Bitcoin is something like a v1 version of a great thing; and there are only two ways crypto world can go:

1.Bitcoin will evolve by development and integration, and offer most of the things/options other altcoins have
2.It will be replaced with something newer and better, and price will go 1 step up, two steps down until finaly it dies.

imho ofc

I believe there's room for many altcoins. In a perfect world, every community would use its own cryptocurrency, whose value goes up with the growth of the community. This makes more sense than the coin monopoly that big BTC holders seem to desire. Also, altcoins are great for the distribution of the crypto-wealth.

For micro-transactions with bitcoin, you can use do it with offchain tx.
For example, you can send a tiny amount of bitcoin from your coinbase account to someone else's coinbase account without any tx fee and instantly. :)

Yeah, but for that you'd have to find someone who has a coinbase wallet, that's a big inconveniance. Plus, everytime you do that you sacrifice the decentralised aspect of cryptocurrencies, and instead you put trust in a central entithy in exchange for cheap transactions.

In altcoins, the cheap transactions are built in and decentralised, which makes it much better.

I gave up on alt coins a long time ago  8) they are too much effort for little gain and they all end in the same way pump and dump there are no real promising looking alt coins on the market at this time and quite honestly never think there will be.

Completely agree with you on this.
Even better I am afraid the amount of crapcoins in circulation may cause (or alrady causing)  a damage to bitcoin image

I don't believe most people have heard of Peercoin and Darkcoin and other major altcoins, let alone "insert name of scam coin #371 here".

Since these coins are pretty much confined to this forum, I feel it's safe to say that they aren't bad for Bitcoin's image. And many of them actually are good, like Dogecoin which manage to give cryptocurrencies a more fun and less "ponzi-ish" image.

You are right about dogecoin, they infact brought something new as you underlined: they formed a community,  brought fun and spreaded the world about cryptocoins (sponsored jamaican bobsleigh team for winter olimpics). lots ov novelty items in dogecoin, so definitely not a clone and not a crapcoin.

But we could do well also without  many other coins

But yet, many Altcoins are still there. So "we" in your post is actually "you".

"We" ... have been given the tool to exchange and store wealth without meddling, a tool in abundance now instead of fixed and centralized and "you" more or less state that "we" have too many of this free tool?

There is only one appropriate quote for this, slightly enhanced:


You have been liberated but want to be shackled again  ???

Well, you almost reduced me to silence with your post.

I have to admit, as you correctly noticed, I am quite ignorant about how cryptocurrencies works and what I wrote is my "ignorant" opinion.

I should have written "me" instead of "we" because I could do well without all the cryptocurrencies I still don't understand (and they are lots  :(. )

My bad.

A day not punched in the face (intellectually) is a day not lived  8)

Yes, and 99% of them unnecessary  ::)

The US had multiple currencies when we were a collection of colonies. Europe had multiple currencies before the EU was formed. If we're thinking of multiple crypto coins as currency, medium of exchange, I think it's fine to have multiple versions and then as the ecosystem matures some or many of those currencies will be abandoned. If you're thinking of these currencies like stocks, where some will appreciate in value, i think that's a dangerous way to think about it. Maybe you can make some money on speculation but that's clearly not the ideal purpose for their creation.

Many alt-coins exist, but the alt-coin boom brought in a lot of junk coins that don't really have any really purpose. There are still some great coins being released every now and again adding value such as P2P marketplaces, built-in wallet trading platforms via APIs, and some integrate ZeroCoin for added anonymity. I once heard someone explain it as "alt-coins are the testing grounds for new features." Even if the coin really sucks, it could have a few nice features that favored coins may some day implement.

I believe there are too many alt coins right now. Most of them are completely unnecessary and have no purpose whatsoever.

Ok, that's a cool ass map. But damn, 52 in one month!!! This shit has got to stop!

Well most of the altcoins are pump and dump schemes.. and there are people who like that, thats why some devs make a shitty alt.. got it into an exchange, dump it and repeat the process once again..

Some have good features but most of them (99%) are introduce for pump and dump so avoid all other coins and focus on BTC only

Its ok to have too many alt, just need more innovation and not scam coin..

As long as there are new users driven by greed who will listen to some raving lunatic they don't know talking about how Buttcoin is going to be the next Bitcoin then there will be pump and dumps.  They steal money that should have been invested into reasonable coins - ones where the devs have credibility and are actually working towards a goal.

But no one can stop these scam coins because we have no authority or department for this

Yes we have too many of them, and many of them dying.... litecoin included, it never go up after bubble

We have way more than too many altcoins. 1 year before we already had too many altcoins, now things are out of control. I only use Monero but there are thousands of altcoins out here.

Sadly this is the truth.
Most of the people getting into those new coins understand the coins are likely made for pump and dumps, and they are expecting to get profits with the pump and dumps...

So you hold an altcoin but complain about altcoins? You'd better work on your logic in that post.

That's an understatement. 99.9% of them are unesessary  :D. They're only ever made with one thing in mind and that's for the devs to get rich quick. People should just leave them alone and they'd die off.

We just have 2 altcoin, legitcoin and scamcoin.
But, most of altcoin is scam LOL  ;D

99.9% sounds too high to me.
I can think of at least 4 innovative coins like litecoin, namecoin, peercoin and darkcoin within a minute, but I don't think there are 4000 altcoins out there. :)

No, you can never have too many "alt" coins.  You can have too many useless coins which in fact, we probably do have today.  I just saw a guy advertising that for as little as .3 BTC he'd generate a new algo coin (X11 I think).  So this means that for as little as around $200 you can start up your own little alt coin.  Really, it's about the same for businesses.  But this is a publicly traded entity.  As soon as people start mining the new coin (that may have costed $200 or less to start) there is value being generated because the ledger is being built.  The more that coin gets traded the more that ledger grows and again the value goes up. 

The problem is with coins that have no clout but for some reason have value.  Coins that are not integrated to a business or some sort of goods/services exchange but still have "hyped" value are a problem.

As you get into the smaller coins, look at what they are actually doing.  Doge coin is so frigging cool because they are in the headlines every now and then for charitable goods.  I totally respect Doge because of that.. and it makes me laugh :)

my 2-cents

I think personally we have to many alt coins and there is not point for so many. But there's nothing we can really do about it unfortunately.

It's interesting that this topic was created on May 29, 2013 but the question is still valid. Actually it's more "valid" now, having too many altcoins.

Do we have too many alt coins? Of course we do, but that is not going to stop the greedy from preying on the community.

I'm thinking about it and I've been some weeks without visiting any 'Announcements' topic ;) hahaha

Let's see if a great new coin appears.

have to much alt coins ...come more new coins  at future and better coins with new algo and .......

and.... ? haha

New algos have to implement new specs for the coin. I prefer to have a good project with Scrypt rather than another one with a poor new algo without development.

The reason for massive sold off for altcoin this week.

As for bitcoin, it has network effect. Litecoin has nothing.

I don't think BTC and LTC are not same. There is a huge difference between BTC and LTC, specially on the price. I am trying to mine altcoin and making some profit.

Yes, I am new and I was confused by too many alt coins.

Well said.
We have x11, and then people added two more algorithm to make x13, and then x15, and so on. To be honest I don't see any benefit to the whole cryptocurrencies community.

EDIT: After a google search, I just found that there are indeed x12, x14, x17 as well...

I think many coins pretend to be innovative by using the latest algorithm, no matter how little value it actually adds. X12-X17 adds no real value compared to X11 for example. Adding new algorithms all the time is just more work for those making mining software.

Mostly altcoins made for just scam, they made promote sell their parts and disappear.
Again change the name and process start.

Again just look at this http://mapofcoins.com/ (http://mapofcoins.com/) and tell me that's not nonsense.  No single coin will be able to fulfill every market niche nor should it have to, but 3+ coin launches a day is ridiculous.

Imagine being able to click "Show unread posts since last visit." without being bombarded with useless shitty altcoins. Just imagine that, wouldn't that make the forum much better? We have too many altcoins that bring absolutely nothing to the table.

too much shittycoins made only just to scam other.
and too much dumb guys who still believe invest on that shittycoins means they will rich someday

If you want to achieve that, you can ignore the whole altcoin section on your profile.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;sa=ignoreBoards

And they will be all gone. :)

There are just TOO MANY alt coins, many of them are useless and killing bitcoin.

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I don't think any one can kill Bitcoin because bitcoin has his own worth but still I am not in favor of these too much alt coins

Yes, most newbies are too confused with the ridiculous amounts of coins.

99% of altcoins these days exists with the sole purpose in mind of their creators (and community) to bump and then extract BTC from the unsavy/speculators. Do not get fooled by false promises my friends.

Yup there are way too many altcoins.
Yup most of them are useless and are simply instruments for pump and dump.
But nope, they are not going to kill bitcoin. Bitcoin has a big first-mover advantage and it won't be replaced that easily.

Read on guys... This might be the single most valuable piece of advice you'll get on this forum:

Altcoins only seem to have the purpose of filling in trade markets on exchanges, offering MANY MANY bull or bear markets allowing investors to transfer their bitcoin over to take advantages of price fluctuations.

Definitely yes, there are too many altcoins out there. But don't worry, most of them are dead, dying or will be dead.
There are only just a few altcoins that have real uses other than gambling.

Yea there are too , far too many of them. At coin-swap we can get a new coin for 1 btc, or lower rates..Too much saturation after Bitcoin entered.

The more alt-coins, the less each one is taken seriously. Alt-coins will be the death of alt-coins. No one can ever have the most important feature of bitcoin, first to market.

We have too many Altcoins! Definitely. It's purely a question of adoption. A commodity or currency will only be successful if people agree that it's valuable and they can be sure to trade it for other things in the future. I guess 99% of those altcoins won't transfer any real wealth in the future. They're interesting when it comes to new ideas, though...

well that is the consequence of having open soruce. everyone and their mother is going to copy it and say theirs is better. it might be, but its not what is beign used. the more altcoins created the more of a joke it becomes. there really isn't almost any need for more than a few altcoins, but since this is the open market on things like this as many will be created and uses as there is a demand for.

now many are making new coins because it is very easy to make,
but if the coin was just copied from the previous coins and not good in management. definitely the coin will quickly die  :o

Out of that 550 altcoins, how many you have heard of? May be 10 or 20.
On how many of them, you can actually name a special feature of the coin? May be 3 or 5.

:D

No It's no good at all and I wonder why exchanges accepts all those dump coins, they will never be anything like bitcoin. I'm Ok with Litecoin and Bitcoin but only 2 and not 1000's alts which are just for pumping money from other ..

Exchanges typically have nothing to lose other than database management by hosting all kinds of alt-trash.  Since they take a 0.2% cut typically it's free passive money for them as long as the wallet is secure.  They can dump the alt-trash coins whenever they want for BTC in their own trading systems.  Some exchanges promote every single coin possible, some just stick to the older ones.

I don't care the many altcoins. The good ones will remain. It's not that easy to have the good technical skills, devotion to develop, good marketing and community interaction.
It's just important to research the coin you are willing to invest in, don't go in blind or on rumours and hypes, there's so many trolls trying to lure you in the wrong things.

Exactly.

Developers create those coins for profits, and they don't care if others will lose in the pump and dump.
Exchanges list those coins for profits, and they don't care if others will lose in the pump and dump.

People have to stop falling into those IPO scam, pump and dump scam and so on.

Yes but people also like to invest in the next big thing, new technology and make a big ride (get rich). Pretty much like gambling. Ofcourse it's sad if coins were just created to make people believe it's gonna be the greatest new technology without really trying or awfully failing at it.

Exactly.
Many people have missed the boat for bitcoin, and they can't resist the chance to catch the next big thing that could bring them an extremely high profit.

Yes, why so many? We dont need them

But no one can stop them just because of this we have too many and everyday many still coming

alt coins should get banned.

The same way China banned BTC 48 times?  :D

There's no reason to ban them if fools don't put their money into them.  The pump and dump devs rely on the constant stream of new foolish money. The altcoin section is a zoo now.

There are people making decent amounts of money offering services that are basically "we pay us and we make your own shitcoin". It has turned into a whole market moving big amounts of money.  ::)

Not only are they extracting BTC from fools, they are also dumping BTC for cash.

Not sure if anyone notice, every time there is a successful IPO or new coin, BTC market cap take a huge hit not long after. I am going to guess this is due the developers cashing out their btc.

You are right and as they cash out coins after few days new coin is not in frame and many newbies and investors lost huge money

Yup, and indeed some suspected the previous bitcoin price drop 5 days ago was due to the Ethereum devs dumping their IPO coins.

Yes, we have too many.

I see coinwarz or any other exchange list and theres likes 18 alt coins.

18? Check http://mapofcoins.com/ to see 550 altcoin lol. :)
Among them, there are at least 169 altcoins still trading on Cryptsy.

Again, the concept of (too) many is part of this tool of freedom. If you cannot grasp this, why bother continuing posting on this board?

We have too many altcoin and too many Shit coin too. :D

Yes we do. 99% are shit.

Yup.
Those having the programming skills are free to make as many altcoins as they want, but the point I don't understand is why people invest in those shitcoins...

Yes. Few months ago there were some new alts that had decent launches and weren't scams. Those are still alive today and their prices vary - mostly because of pumps and dumps. It's hard to make something really revolutionary nowadays (it requires big efforts and manhours) to make your new coin any different than bunch of others. I say kill them all and just leave 15 well established coins (tops).

Most of peoples invest in these just in greediness and some newbies invest because they have no idea what they are doing after losing money then they realize its shit

Yes. Please make it stop for crying out loud.

You cannot stop scammers from continually making new coins to fleece new money.  What you can stop is the free money going to those scammers by educating people new to crypto to consider why they are throwing their money away.  Take the fuel away from the fire...

All the altcoins have done a huge job marketing Bitcoin while marketing their own coin since mostly you could only buy them with BTC's. I don't know numbers but 10-25% of all bitcoin volume may be linked to altcoins.

I'm not sure if any of the altcoins made this year are even interested in becoming viable vehicles of commerce.
I opened an altcoin store, and tried to help out the coins I favored, because they all want to be accepted.
Not because they want to spend them, but because it will strengthen the value to investors.
After accepting 10 varieties, in one month, the store has sold $3 in merchandise.
I'm seriously considering dumping them, and concentrating on btc, ltc , drk, and doge.

almost every day a new coin to emerge, and old coins on the market will die lonely.
here I just took to advantage only when the coin in a market crowded :)

Altcoins are growing like mushroom after the success of bitcoin many had put a greedy eye on this things,

http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/coins/info
Indexing 928 cryptocoins with a total 24h volume of 53,102.49 BTC and 7,078,874,268.66 USD marketcap!

Holy crap, we have 927 altcoin already listed on those altcoin exchanges?!  :o

alt coins are probably the future they have time to evaluate the current system of Bitcoin and when/if it fails get to design their product around the vulnerabilities of Bitcoin I think you will appreciate the time given from the developers in the future.

The last time Bitcoin "failed" was the fork last year.  The only crypto that gained any traction from that was Litecoin - the number 2 crypto.  Of course that was last year and 800 new altcoins have been released since then, but only about 7 of the alts have any development or volume to put them anywhere close to litecoin, let alone Bitcoin.

Progamming skills aren't even necessary anymore. There's a website on which you can easily build your own altcoins, if I recall correctly it costs only about 0.02 BTC

more like 4k altcoin, hash been released, probably even more, this if we count every shit launched


it was higher before, now is cheap because no one care about releasing garbage anymore