Bitcoin Forum

It may be time to report Mt. Gox to the Japan Financial Services Agency, which regulates money transfer firms in Japan.

Japan's Financial Services Agency regulates money transfer firms which operate in Japan.  For example, SBI Remit (https://www.remit.co.jp/MainCorporateProfile.jsf?menuid=1&lang=en) is a registered money transfer firm. They transfer to and from various currencies and can move money around the world. They even support mobile phones.  Mt. Gox comes squarely under the same regulations they do.

Here's are some excerpts from the regulations (http://www.amt-law.com/res/news_2010_pdf/100114_1520.pdf):

"Only banks licensed under the Banking Act of Japan (Act No. 59 of 1981, as amended) and certain other financial institutions handling deposits licensed under other applicable laws (collectively, the Banks) are permitted to engage in ‘money remittance transactions’....

"However due to the innovation of information-communication technology, persons/entities other than Banks can easily conduct services that are similar to the traditional fund transfer business conducted by Banks. This, therefore, means that the line between permitted and prohibited services is blurred and it has been argued that, by considering customer protection, it is necessary to sort this issue out and set new regulations on fund transfer services by permitting certain entities other than the Banks to engage in the business of such services.

"The PSA will allow companies that are not licensed Banks to engage in the business of ‘money remittance transactions’ in Japan provided that: (i) they are registered as ‘fund transfer business operators’ (operators); and (ii) they are able to engage in services to the extent that such transactions fall under the category of a ‘certain small amount of transactions’. Details of the ‘certain small amount’ mentioned in (ii) above will be provided for in the cabinet order. However, in light of discussions at the National Diet of Japan, such amount is expected to be between JPY500,000 and JPY1,000,000 or less."

"An entity which intends to be an operator will be subject to a registration requirement and certain regulations including the security of its assets and other customer protection measures, supervision and measures against money laundering."

"In order to be registered as an operator under the PSA, an applicant must satisfy certain requirements, such as the applicant must be a stock company (kabushiki kaisha) or a foreign entity which has the equivalent registration in its home country and has an office(s) and representative in Japan; the applicant must have sufficient financial standing to conduct business appropriately and properly; the applicant must have a satisfactory organisational structure to conduct business appropriately and properly; and the applicant must have a compliance system to ensure observance with the relevant laws and regulations. "

"The PSA will impose an obligation on an operator to secure the assets in amounts equal to or more than the total amount of: (i) funds which an operator is transmitting; and (ii) procedural costs in relation to reimbursement of such funds as set out in (i), so that the transferred funds can reach the recipient even in the event of an operator’s insolvency."

"In the event of an operator’s insolvency, users have rights to recover their assets from the above secured assets in priority to an operator's general creditors, pursuant to the procedures provided in the PSA."

There's more, but you get the general idea.

The Japan Financial Services Agency (http://www.fsa.go.jp/en/contact.html) enforces these regulations.

    Financial Services Agency
    The Central Common Government Offices No. 7,
    3-2-1 Kasumigaseki, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo, 100-8967 Japan
 

Stop acting like a http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/Lannister/man-boobs.jpg

Oh yes, that's exactly what a peep-to-peer cryptocurrency needs. Government regulation!

If you think they've done something illegal, then go for it. Nobody's going to stop you. Let us know when you give up. It would be my guess that, just be like everyone else who's threatened or suggested that we do some legal or governmental thing to Mt. Gox, you'll quietly do nothing more than complain some more. This is because you realize that suggesting something that you want others to "rise up and do" is completely different than saying you're going to do something yourself and doing it.

If you want something done, it's on you, pal. Lead the way. Ignite the charge. Let us know how it progresses.

Or, you know, do the expected thing to just bitch and moan and then disappear from this thread.

Please, prove me wrong. I'm pretty jaded by attempts like this.

Someone needs to be reported to the National Agency of Douchebaggery

reporting anyone... i bet you had no friends in schooltime

Do it.  It's long overdue.  I'm surprised the Japanese government hasn't cracked down on them already, it's only a matter of time...

I don't have any money trapped in Mt. Gox. Many of the people who do have a good reason to file a complaint. Especially since Mt. Gox just missed their re-opening deadline yet again.

Something is very, very wrong at Mt. Gox. Millions of dollars may be lost if action isn't taken.

Serves those people right.  Anyone stupid enough to trade at a shady, completely unregulated exchage deserves to get their money stolen.  Welcome to the real world of no regulation.  It's going to be a rough lesson for a lot of people.

I'm not saying Mt. Gox isn't sorely in need of some adult oversight, but what is the likely outcome of a successful complaint? It seems very possible to me that it'd be a big seizure of all computers, encryption keys and bank accounts then turned over to a team of forensic accountants. People with real money deposits would probably get their money back after an extended period, but it seems quite possible everyones BTC would be gone forever or at least held up indefinapermanently.

that won't do shit..
for all you know it could be some teenager running the MtGox server out of his mother's basement... or two 20yr olds running MtGox out of their garage (although not likely in Japan).

honestly, no more uninformed rumours please

MtGox confirmed they lost around 1000$ worth of bitcoins

the large 500.000BTC transaction that we all saw right after the hackcrash was due to MtGox moving their wallet to a more secure location

they confirmed that! my account reads correctly and my bitcoins are in place...other people have already withdrawn their BTC no problem

cut the bs please

look this guy is a loser that runs this shit site. > http://downside.com/
The guy obviously has no life and wants to be a prick just to have something to do.
People like this see something happening that challenges their statist worldview and they get their panties in a bunch. 

Mind your own business, Get lost and bent Nagle!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BXCjk-IDqgs/SayC0s5a32I/AAAAAAAAAkM/Gwkd9t3udsQ/s320/flip-the-bird.jpg

Wow, talk about argumentum ad hominem.  The OP's original post, while quite charged in implication, was pretty matter-of-fact and to the point.  Just because he posted the address of a government regulatory agency ...

It's probably good for all of us to have numbers to all sorts of agencies, should our ability to self-police not work out.

But, we should try to self-police first I think, no?  Vote with your btc's.  If gox can't get this stuff straightened out, people will eventually move to something better.  Shit, people may just collectively INVENT something better.

I'd love to work with some people on creating something like "Bitcoin Open Exchange" where everything we do is transparent (with the exception of security).  Something like Open Software for btc trading.

Mt Gox is registered with them already I'm pretty sure.

Here's the officlal list of "financial instruments firms" (http://www.fsa.go.jp/en/regulated/licensed/fif.pdf) registered with the Japan Financial Services Agency as of May 31, 2011. SBI Remit (Japan's equivalent of Western Union Money Transfer) shows up as their parent company, SBI Capital, on page 57, so this is the right place for money transfer firms.

There are also lists of every kind of financial entity in Japan. (http://www.fsa.go.jp/en/regulated/licensed/index.html) - banks, insurance companies, etc.

Not finding "Mt. Gox" or "Tibanne" anywhere.

So it looks like they're not registered.

Nagle, you need to register on the International Registry of Statist Trolls.   ;D

If you don't like Mtgox - don't use em. It's that simple.

i do believe that the 1k/day and 10k/month are limits they place on everyone to avoid regulation- gl with going after them but from what i've read they religiously consult legal advice and it seems they are in good standing.  

on the other side you could be an activist complainer going after someone who was just compromised and is seeking to update their security to avoid further problems (but not fast enough for your liking).  i'll side with them on this one.  is it that shocking that the main market for a currency that only recently became widely accepted by "hackers" is "hacked"?  shocker?!?  omg wtf?  if you didn't see this coming you are R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D.  i just hope that what steps they have taken now prevent further issues.  seriously if you think any of the other "untested" sites like tradehill and 7bitcoins or whatever it is would have been able to avoid the first incident refer to my previous claim (that you are retarded).  

i mean the "crash" wasn't even a hack- it was an "i'll market order gazillions of coins to a different account i have resting bids at .00001 cents at and then instantly transfer them out thereby getting around the 1k/day limit" attempt... and the accounts that were released were (according to mtgox) innactive accounts from an auditor's comp system (not their own).

think about it this way- the "value" you place in anything is really worthless until it is high enough that you've convinced people to try and steal it.  that legitimizes it in my opinion (even though this was by no means a theft in my book).

Well, Japan seems to have bigger problems than bitcoin these days... Did they fix the leaks in the nuclear reactors?
Maybe MtGox's problem is the lack of reliable power  ;D

+1 (and the US as well don't we have a meltdown going now too?)

That's the threshold for reporting transactions. (http://www.anti-moneylaundering.org/asiapacific/japan.aspx). It's actually Y100,000, currently about $1242. That's in addition to having to register as a money transfer service.

Most exchanges impose such limits simply because they don't want to deal with THE LAW.
Good luck running a bitcoin-based business with such limits! I'd rather deal with the reactos problem  ;D

Ouch, I better get my shit out of MtGox soon. I don't have much time.
Once those government clowns get "involved" everything will be tied up for years!  ???

 ;D  ;D  ;D
A bank run on MtGox wil definetely make Bitcoin successful!

Their servers are located in the US.  Their bank accounts are located in France and The USA.  I don't know where their bitcoins are located, but I suppose the wallets are backed up in several locations.  Why would they have to register as a financial institution in Japan when none of the trading goes on there?  Why not France (for a having bank account?) or The USA?

Yeah, go ahead, report them and perhaps they will be shut down or forced to halt trading as they are tied up with red tape for months.   That is really going to help the bitcoin economy.

Honestly, what are you trying to achieve?

This is pioneer territory. Most internet startup companies run afoul of some regulation or another.  Even the giants like amazon, google, and ebay did when they started out with two or three people.  They simply don't have the resources to deal with the complexities of the regulation jungle at that stage.  If startups were forced to follow every conceivable regulation to the letter, we would never get any innovation. 

Don't like mtgox? Don't use them.

But please don't be a jerk. 

For all you know, you could just go to Google Maps (http://maps.google.com). Or you could call Cerulean Tower and ask the receptionist if there's a company called Tibanne Co, Ltd. operating in the building.

It just so happens, it's in Shibuya, the most expensive district of Tokyo beside Shinjuku.

Even the owner's name is public. So no, it's not "two 20 year olds running MtGox out of their garage".

How do you know that?

A tracert ends at "proxlexic.com". That's an  anti-DDOS protection service. (http://www.prolexic.com) They have huge bandwidth, drop attack packets, and forward good packets to the actual destination.  That's not where Mt. Gox's servers are.

Ok, so it's a rich guy and two twenty-somethings.

sturle, I may be wrong on this one, but I guess that when you're incorporated in a jurisdiction you have to follow the legislation of that jurisdiction, regardless of where your servers and bank accounts are located. Also, if you happen to be a citizen of the US of A, you have to follow the American law regardless what you do and where you do it  ;D

Case in point: e-gold. the guy was an American citizen, and the feds nailed him for money laundering although his company and servers were somewhere else...

Customers are still trying to get their value out of E-Gold. (http://blog.e-gold.com/) The gold was there, but it's been seized by the US,

Naaaah, you think so?  ;D

It is far more complicated than that.  A company incorporated in  The Netherlands can't come to my country, open a brothel and sell cannabis, because it is illegal here.  But a company incorporated in my country can open a coffee shop and sell cannabis and prostitutes in Amsterdam, because it is legal there.  It is not only about where the company is incorporated.  Where the business is being done is more important.  For tax reasons as well.  It is not obvious to me that MtGox should register with the Japan Financial Services Agency as long as they don't offer any financial services in Japan, but I assume a foreign bank which offer such services in Japan would have to register.

I don't know the history behind E-gold.  According to Wikipedia they operated and offered their services from Florida, USA.

I like Shibuya and I'll be at Cerulean Tower in a couple of weeks.  You don't need to be rich to live there, smart helps.

plus, this Neagle guy - if he wants all this to fail so badly, why is he spending so much time here (I saw his great website via another of his down with everything posts.)

Shhh  we're not supposed to talk about that. 

Actually, not to argue semantics and be a jackass, I think Amsterdam has made it illegal for foreigners to sell cannabis, I know that they've made it illegal to sell to foreigners, I saw where they were making a big fuss over it

And when you trade in a regulated market such as wallstreet your money STILL gets stolen but this time the thieves have the authorities on their side. AyeYo, i'm usually very calm but jackassess like yourself don't really know what the HELL you are spouting from that anus you call a mouth. As for a lot of people learning a rough lesson, I don't really believe that they need a moron such as yourself to remind them of the total assfucking they recieved during 2008 up till now. There are regulations on the 'W. Street' but those regulations benefit you know who so i'll take no regulation as opposed to regulation that only benefits those greedy pricks in Washington. AyeYo in closing, just shut the fuck up and impart your knowledge to your wife, kids, or dogs but don't do that shit here...now get lost

Did I strike a nerve?  Seems that I did.

Does it suck knowing that Mt.Gox can pack up shop and disappear at any moment, taking all your money and Bitcoins with it... and you have absolutely no recourse.  You don't even have any contact information besides an email address.  Who are you going to cry to? 

Do you realize Mt.Gox and all these other exchanges can very well be feeding you incorrect data and trading against you?  Like I said, welcome to no regulation land.  I hope you enjoy your raping.

I personally expect that they could, though my biggest concern is that they (MtGox, TradeHill, etc) will be shut down by our 'protectors' and my funds will be frozen.

To mitigate, I simply don't put funds there that I cannot afford to lose, and I only keep the funds with them that I actually need for my trading.  It is delightfully simple to convert to BTC and move them out.  I can barely wait until I have enough of a position in BTC to wish to sell some (though I'll likely not be interested in playing the markets when I reach that point.)  Then I'll be able to fund my account without the time and cost of wire transfers.

Ayeyo,

I very much still disagree on your position but that is not why I'm posting. Your response to my ranting proves to me that you are not a TROLL as you did not incite further inflammatory remarks (i did not consider your response inflammatory because i truly feel that you believe what you say.) This shows that you at least have some modicum of character which is hard to find nowadays, and for that I would like to publicly apologize to you for my insulting post. I am not usually like this, and I am sorry for taking it out on you. Best of luck and have a good day

Well we shouldn't need to have the government crack down on them cause they have shown there incompetence in plenty and everyone should have left MtGox if they had any sense by now.

The easy accessible alternatives may be quite flawed and amateurish too that might be the problem..

Anyway if regulation is a vulnerability of a BitCoin service and the service operators do nothing about the problem then I see nothing douchbaggy about reporting them.

The government will act sooner or later, better it be sooner so the damage is lower is other have time to take notice and adapt sooner...