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Title: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 08:15:24 AM If there is one thing I have learned about Bitcoins, its that mining them is not profitable or worth while. When you factor in all implicit and explicit costs, mining is a terrible loss.
That doesnt mean that you cant make Bitcoins in a profitable manner. It just means that you have to think more outside the box. You cant make money where everybody is trying to make money. You need unique, creative methods that you can scale up. I have already uncovered a few methods of making bitcoins and cash on autopilot, but I am looking for more. If anybody would like to brainstorm with me and perhaps partner up, please skype me at spamx182 or email me. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: zhalox on June 25, 2011, 08:18:55 AM Actually, Bitcoin is like any other currency in the sense that you'll need to do some work, or provide some kind of good that others will pay for (and you're willing to accept BTC for of course).
Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 08:32:01 AM If you factor in your time, it is generally not profitable (unless you can do nothing but minimum wage work, which I assume is not the case)
Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: Slab Squathrust on June 25, 2011, 08:41:10 AM If you factor in your time, it is generally not profitable (unless you can do nothing but minimum wage work, which I assume is not the case) Factor in your time? You do know that there is no human work involved in the mining for bitcoins. You dont literally swing a pick axe. It is true that electricity costs can cut into profits. But time? Just have the computer mine when you don't need to use it. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: Gabi on June 25, 2011, 08:46:23 AM Mining IS profitable.
Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 08:46:44 AM Opportunity cost. It takes time and money to set these things up. Time and money that could be spent working on other, more profitable projects.
Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 08:52:51 AM If you factor in your time, it is generally not profitable (unless you can do nothing but minimum wage work, which I assume is not the case) Factor in your time? You do know that there is no human work involved in the mining for bitcoins. You dont literally swing a pick axe. It is true that electricity costs can cut into profits. But time? Just have the computer mine when you don't need to use it. If you factor in your time, it is generally not profitable (unless you can do nothing but minimum wage work, which I assume is not the case) Sorry for being harsh, I had assumed this was a one-shot thread. Since you're here though-- a little edumacation for ya'. The time it takes out of your personal day to run your GPU/CPU miner is 0. Maintenance might be required once in a while, but if your error handling is keen-- 0. The time it takes to set up such a machine in the first place-- assuming the hardware is there, but without drivers or miner app? 3 minutes flat. Raise that to 6 if you aren't satisfied with default settings. I recently finished version 2.1.22 of my AlgoCalc solutions program. Basically, you pop in a thumbdrive and if autorun is in place, 3 minutes later you've got a silent miner that continuously runs on startup, runs invisibly, only uses non-used CPU/GPU (per miner plugin) with the option for delete protection (kind of like spyware cannot be 'deleted'). Get my app and the licensing it requires (per install), and you can have an install CD/Thumbdrive/fileset that you can put on any computer anywhere and it will act as your personal miner from then on. It is secure because it will not allow incoming connections, but it will connect to my algocalc database to make sure it is licensed, the same database that holds all of your pool mining login information for your convenience. So this time you're talking about.... since I can add 500 computers a day (if I can find them), and each one can make $1 a day.. what time? You'd be stupid to stop mining. But then again, stupidity is just the lack of education. So I'm educating you. If this is the most money you can make, then so be it. It isnt profitable for me. I can get higher returns with my time and money. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: Gabi on June 25, 2011, 08:53:06 AM Opportunity cost. It takes time and money to set these things up. Time and money that could be spent working on other, more profitable projects. It take like a day to setup a mining farm and then it's all profitTitle: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: Gabi on June 25, 2011, 08:56:35 AM In b4 you get fired and sued for running non authorized softwares on these computers :D
Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 08:58:44 AM In b4 you get fired and sued for running non authorized softwares on these computers :D QFTTitle: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: ghyze on June 25, 2011, 08:59:59 AM If you factor in your time, it is generally not profitable (unless you can do nothing but minimum wage work, which I assume is not the case) Factor in your time? You do know that there is no human work involved in the mining for bitcoins. You dont literally swing a pick axe. It is true that electricity costs can cut into profits. But time? Just have the computer mine when you don't need to use it. If you factor in your time, it is generally not profitable (unless you can do nothing but minimum wage work, which I assume is not the case) Sorry for being harsh, I had assumed this was a one-shot thread. Since you're here though-- a little edumacation for ya'. The time it takes out of your personal day to run your GPU/CPU miner is 0. Maintenance might be required once in a while, but if your error handling is keen-- 0. The time it takes to set up such a machine in the first place-- assuming the hardware is there, but without drivers or miner app? 3 minutes flat. Raise that to 6 if you aren't satisfied with default settings. I recently finished version 2.1.22 of my AlgoCalc solutions program. Basically, you pop in a thumbdrive and if autorun is in place, 3 minutes later you've got a silent miner that continuously runs on startup, runs invisibly, only uses non-used CPU/GPU (per miner plugin) with the option for delete protection (kind of like spyware cannot be 'deleted'). Get my app and the licensing it requires (per install), and you can have an install CD/Thumbdrive/fileset that you can put on any computer anywhere and it will act as your personal miner from then on. It is secure because it will not allow incoming connections, but it will connect to my algocalc database to make sure it is licensed, the same database that holds all of your pool mining login information for your convenience. So this time you're talking about.... since I can add 500 computers a day (if I can find them), and each one can make $1 a day.. what time? You'd be stupid to stop mining. But then again, stupidity is just the lack of education. So I'm educating you. Assuming you're not paying for the electricity of the computers running those stealth installations, that's theft. You're making other people pay for your profit, without telling them. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: SgtSpike on June 25, 2011, 09:02:14 AM OP fails at calculations.
If you're using ANY 5xxx or 6xxx series card, it is profitable to mine. I don't care what your electric costs are, but the price/difficulty ratio isn't yet terrible enough for those who pay the most for electricity to be unprofitable. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: em3rgentOrdr on June 25, 2011, 09:16:09 AM If there is one thing I have learned about Bitcoins, its that mining them is not profitable or worth while. When you factor in all implicit and explicit costs, mining is a terrible loss. That doesnt mean that you cant make Bitcoins in a profitable manner. It just means that you have to think more outside the box. You cant make money where everybody is trying to make money. You need unique, creative methods that you can scale up. +1. Thank you. This is the most sane post I have ever read in the Newbie forum. The market equilibrium profit rate for mining should be close to 0 profit. Just enough revenue on average to cover the energy, cooling, hardware, and monitoring/setup labor costs plus a small risk premium to account for the uncertainty in mining. At this point, I strongly advise that Newbies don't waste their time mining unless they are experienced computer hardware specialists. Instead, please offer goods/services in exchange for bitcoin. The whole point of bitcoin is that it is designed with the goal that a single person or group can't print currency willy nilly. Actually, Bitcoin is like any other currency in the sense that you'll need to do some work, or provide some kind of good that others will pay for (and you're willing to accept BTC for of course). +1. Thank you again OP fails at calculations. If you're using ANY 5xxx or 6xxx series card, it is profitable to mine. I don't care what your electric costs are, but the price/difficulty ratio isn't yet terrible enough for those who pay the most for electricity to be unprofitable. Keep in mind the current USD bitcoin value is very speculative, and I don't think the current total market value of all bitcoins currently in existence accurately reflects the size of the bitcoin economy. Please offer goods and services in exchange for bitcoin instead. Bitcoin is not about mining for the same exact reason that gold is not about mining. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 09:19:23 AM If there is one thing I have learned about Bitcoins, its that mining them is not profitable or worth while. When you factor in all implicit and explicit costs, mining is a terrible loss. That doesnt mean that you cant make Bitcoins in a profitable manner. It just means that you have to think more outside the box. You cant make money where everybody is trying to make money. You need unique, creative methods that you can scale up. +1. Thank you. This is the most sane post I have ever read in the Newbie forum. The market equilibrium profit rate for mining should be close to 0 profit. Just enough revenue on average to cover the energy, cooling, hardware, and monitoring/setup labor costs plus a small risk premium to account for the uncertainty in mining. At this point, I strongly advise that Newbies don't waste their time mining unless they are experienced computer hardware specialists. Instead, please offer goods/services in exchange for bitcoin. The whole point of bitcoin is that it is designed with the goal that a single person or group can't print currency willy nilly. Actually, Bitcoin is like any other currency in the sense that you'll need to do some work, or provide some kind of good that others will pay for (and you're willing to accept BTC for of course). +1. Thank you again OP fails at calculations. If you're using ANY 5xxx or 6xxx series card, it is profitable to mine. I don't care what your electric costs are, but the price/difficulty ratio isn't yet terrible enough for those who pay the most for electricity to be unprofitable. Keep in mind the current USD bitcoin value is very speculative, and I don't think the current total market value of all bitcoins currently in existence accurately reflects the size of the bitcoin economy. Please offer goods and services in exchange for bitcoin instead. Bitcoin is not about mining for the same exact reason that gold is not about mining. Smart post. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: Mabsark on June 25, 2011, 09:27:10 AM I recently finished version 2.1.22 of my AlgoCalc solutions program. Basically, you pop in a thumbdrive and if autorun is in place, 3 minutes later you've got a silent miner that continuously runs on startup, runs invisibly, only uses non-used CPU/GPU (per miner plugin) with the option for delete protection (kind of like spyware cannot be 'deleted'). If autorun is on, then they obviously don't know how to secure a computer. They should learn some security basics before they get into bitcoin. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: Gabi on June 25, 2011, 09:54:56 AM Well you need a driver license to drive a car, while a computer require nothing
Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: Mabsark on June 25, 2011, 10:03:39 AM Obvious enough point, but why do you think someone would have to know anything about security to take money in exchange for GPU cycles? The last time you bought a car, did they ask you if you were a good driver? -_-;; Eveyone using a computer should learn security basics. Using a computer without knowing the basics of security is like driving a car without knowing the highway code (or whatever driving laws are called in your country). Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 10:10:36 AM So are we decided that Bitcoin Mining is unprofitable :)
Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: SgtSpike on June 25, 2011, 10:12:04 AM If there is one thing I have learned about Bitcoins, its that mining them is not profitable or worth while. When you factor in all implicit and explicit costs, mining is a terrible loss. That doesnt mean that you cant make Bitcoins in a profitable manner. It just means that you have to think more outside the box. You cant make money where everybody is trying to make money. You need unique, creative methods that you can scale up. +1. Thank you. This is the most sane post I have ever read in the Newbie forum. The market equilibrium profit rate for mining should be close to 0 profit. Just enough revenue on average to cover the energy, cooling, hardware, and monitoring/setup labor costs plus a small risk premium to account for the uncertainty in mining. At this point, I strongly advise that Newbies don't waste their time mining unless they are experienced computer hardware specialists. Instead, please offer goods/services in exchange for bitcoin. The whole point of bitcoin is that it is designed with the goal that a single person or group can't print currency willy nilly. Actually, Bitcoin is like any other currency in the sense that you'll need to do some work, or provide some kind of good that others will pay for (and you're willing to accept BTC for of course). +1. Thank you again OP fails at calculations. If you're using ANY 5xxx or 6xxx series card, it is profitable to mine. I don't care what your electric costs are, but the price/difficulty ratio isn't yet terrible enough for those who pay the most for electricity to be unprofitable. Keep in mind the current USD bitcoin value is very speculative, and I don't think the current total market value of all bitcoins currently in existence accurately reflects the size of the bitcoin economy. Please offer goods and services in exchange for bitcoin instead. Bitcoin is not about mining for the same exact reason that gold is not about mining. I'm paying for my electricity 6x over. There is absolutely no reason for me to not mine. It would make zero sense. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: em3rgentOrdr on June 25, 2011, 10:13:12 AM If you've got Bitcoins, and the ability to mine for them at a rate that allows a profit, I say do it. You're not only helping yourself, you're also helping the economy by creating more bitcoins to go around, bringing us to that day of stabilization even sooner. Mine away! Reality Check: Bitcoins are created at the average rate of 50 bitcoins every ~10 minutes until 2013 (at which point it will only be 25 bitcoins every ~10 minutes) regardless of the number of people mining. Therefore you are factually wrong when you say that someone should mine in order to create more bitcoins to go around. I recently finished version 2.1.22 of my AlgoCalc solutions program. Basically, you pop in a thumbdrive and if autorun is in place, 3 minutes later you've got a silent miner that continuously runs on startup, runs invisibly, only uses non-used CPU/GPU (per miner plugin) with the option for delete protection (kind of like spyware cannot be 'deleted'). If autorun is on, then they obviously don't know how to secure a computer. They should learn some security basics before they get into bitcoin. Obvious enough point, but why do you think someone would have to know anything about security to take money in exchange for GPU cycles? The last time you bought a car, did they ask you if you were a good driver? -_-;; FYI, Mabsark, it has already been determined that Domokun doesn't understand the internal technical workings of bitcoin and he has admitted to being a troll (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22304). Basically he wrote a long post where he claimed he was 12 years old, only knew about bitcoin for a week, has 20,000+ machines mining coins in South Korea, and had already written a bitcoin virus and an anti-virus! But there were enough obviously glaring technical misunderstandings in his post that it was clear he didn't understand bitcoin. He then admitted that he hadn't even read the whitepaper! :D I would take most of what he says with a grain of salt and assume he is just trolling for the lolz. And please don't spend any money for licensing "version 2.1.22 of my AlgoCalc solutions program" because it is obvious now that he hasn't written any version 2.1.21 of AlgoCalc to begin with. :) Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 10:19:52 AM If you've got Bitcoins, and the ability to mine for them at a rate that allows a profit, I say do it. You're not only helping yourself, you're also helping the economy by creating more bitcoins to go around, bringing us to that day of stabilization even sooner. Mine away! Reality Check: Bitcoins are created at the average rate of 50 bitcoins every ~10 minutes until 2013 (at which point it will only be 25 bitcoins every ~10 minutes) regardless of the number of people mining. Therefore you are factually wrong when you say that someone should mine in order to create more bitcoins to go around. I recently finished version 2.1.22 of my AlgoCalc solutions program. Basically, you pop in a thumbdrive and if autorun is in place, 3 minutes later you've got a silent miner that continuously runs on startup, runs invisibly, only uses non-used CPU/GPU (per miner plugin) with the option for delete protection (kind of like spyware cannot be 'deleted'). If autorun is on, then they obviously don't know how to secure a computer. They should learn some security basics before they get into bitcoin. Jacking people up <3 Obvious enough point, but why do you think someone would have to know anything about security to take money in exchange for GPU cycles? The last time you bought a car, did they ask you if you were a good driver? -_-;; FYI, Mabsark, it has already been determined that Domokun doesn't understand the internal technical workings of bitcoin and he has admitted to being a troll (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22304). Basically he wrote a long post where he claimed he was 12 years old, only knew about bitcoin for a week, has 20,000+ machines mining coins in South Korea, and had already written a bitcoin virus and an anti-virus! But there were enough obviously glaring technical misunderstandings in his post that it was clear he didn't understand bitcoin. He then admitted that he hadn't even read the whitepaper! :D I would take most of what he says with a grain of salt and assume he is just trolling for the lolz. And please don't spend any money for licensing "version 2.1.22 of my AlgoCalc solutions program" because it is obvious now that he hasn't written any version 2.1.21 of AlgoCalc to begin with. :) Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: Manko on June 25, 2011, 10:20:39 AM Mining is still profitable... the biatch just does not want to die !!!
I can't wait to see what happens when it no longer is (people, prices, hashrate, difficulty) .... actually, I am really looking forward to it Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: em3rgentOrdr on June 25, 2011, 10:28:11 AM Really? REALLY? So because I might not make a profit tomorrow, I shouldn't mine today? That's the most absurd logic I've ever heard. I'm paying for my electricity 6x over. There is absolutely no reason for me to not mine. It would make zero sense. Sgt. Spike, I was directing my comments towards newbies who might be fooled into thinking they can make an easy steady profit by mining. At the current difficulty level, mining doesn't make sense unless you already have a GPU cluster, since the likelihood of solving a block chain is so high. I just did a calculation using http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php (http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php) Current difficulty: 1379223.42967 Mega Hashes / second: 30.0 (that was on my dual-card Nvidia GPGPU I had used previously) Assuming exchange rate of $15 USD/BTC, since that is about where Mt.Gox was before the big hack. Then the average rate of return, assuming you are engaging in pooled mining is: Coins Dollars per Day ฿0.02 $0.33 per Week ฿0.15 $2.30 per Month ฿0.67 $9.98 That $10 average expected revenue per month doesn't justify the energy cost of me leaving my computer on with the GPU running 24/7 at full blast. Sorry. Again, maybe if you are experienced and have highly optimized energy efficient equipment, then if may work out for you, but I am advising the newbies focus on using whatever unique skill set or trade that they have and offer goods & services in exchange for bitcoin instead of wasting their money buying a mining rig. Your economics may be different though, so you may make your own decision. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: SgtSpike on June 25, 2011, 10:38:46 AM Really? REALLY? So because I might not make a profit tomorrow, I shouldn't mine today? That's the most absurd logic I've ever heard. I'm paying for my electricity 6x over. There is absolutely no reason for me to not mine. It would make zero sense. Sgt. Spike, I was directing my comments towards newbies who might be fooled into thinking they can make an easy steady profit by mining. At the current difficulty level, mining doesn't make sense unless you already have a GPU cluster, since the likelihood of solving a block chain is so high. I just did a calculation using http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php (http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php) Current difficulty: 1379223.42967 Mega Hashes / second: 30.0 (that was on my dual-card Nvidia GPGPU I had used previously) Assuming exchange rate of $15 USD/BTC, since that is about where Mt.Gox was before the big hack. Then the average rate of return, assuming you are engaging in pooled mining is: Coins Dollars per Day ฿0.02 $0.33 per Week ฿0.15 $2.30 per Month ฿0.67 $9.98 That $10 average expected revenue per month doesn't justify the energy cost of me leaving my computer on with the GPU running 24/7 at full blast. Sorry. Again, maybe if you are experienced and have highly optimized energy efficient equipment, then if may work out for you, but I am advising the newbies focus on using whatever unique skill set or trade that they have and offer goods & services in exchange for bitcoin instead of wasting their money buying a mining rig. Your economics may be different though, so you may make your own decision. When you use a single-GPU 5870 that can generate 370MH/s and uses about 200w, the story looks a bit different. Heck, even a 6870 would be a good 10x as good as whatever crap cards you were using. Mining is FAR from being unprofitable. If I had more cash to buy and places to put and cool mining machines, I would do it in a heartbeat. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 10:49:45 AM Really? REALLY? So because I might not make a profit tomorrow, I shouldn't mine today? That's the most absurd logic I've ever heard. I'm paying for my electricity 6x over. There is absolutely no reason for me to not mine. It would make zero sense. Sgt. Spike, I was directing my comments towards newbies who might be fooled into thinking they can make an easy steady profit by mining. At the current difficulty level, mining doesn't make sense unless you already have a GPU cluster, since the likelihood of solving a block chain is so high. I just did a calculation using http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php (http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php) Current difficulty: 1379223.42967 Mega Hashes / second: 30.0 (that was on my dual-card Nvidia GPGPU I had used previously) Assuming exchange rate of $15 USD/BTC, since that is about where Mt.Gox was before the big hack. Then the average rate of return, assuming you are engaging in pooled mining is: Coins Dollars per Day ฿0.02 $0.33 per Week ฿0.15 $2.30 per Month ฿0.67 $9.98 That $10 average expected revenue per month doesn't justify the energy cost of me leaving my computer on with the GPU running 24/7 at full blast. Sorry. Again, maybe if you are experienced and have highly optimized energy efficient equipment, then if may work out for you, but I am advising the newbies focus on using whatever unique skill set or trade that they have and offer goods & services in exchange for bitcoin instead of wasting their money buying a mining rig. Your economics may be different though, so you may make your own decision. When you use a single-GPU 5870 that can generate 370MH/s and uses about 200w, the story looks a bit different. Heck, even a 6870 would be a good 10x as good as whatever crap cards you were using. Mining is FAR from being unprofitable. If I had more cash to buy and places to put and cool mining machines, I would do it in a heartbeat. If mining is as profitable as all of the bitcoin fanboys would like everybody to believe, they would have cash to buy mining rigs, space, and employees. The fact of the matter is simply that it isnt. The people that think it is are exposing themselves to immense risk. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: Mabsark on June 25, 2011, 10:51:27 AM Sgt. Spike, I was directing my comments towards newbies who might be fooled into thinking they can make an easy steady profit by mining. At the current difficulty level, mining doesn't make sense unless you already have a GPU cluster, since the likelihood of solving a block chain is so high. I just did a calculation using http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php (http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php) ... That $10 average expected revenue per month doesn't justify the energy cost of me leaving my computer on with the GPU running 24/7 at full blast. Sorry. Again, maybe if you are experienced and have highly optimized energy efficient equipment, then if may work out for you, but I am advising the newbies focus on using whatever unique skill set or trade that they have and offer goods & services in exchange for bitcoin instead of wasting their money buying a mining rig. Your economics may be different though, so you may make your own decision. As a PC Gamer, mining is still profitable for me. I've got the hardware already and my computer is always on. The extra electricity costs are tiny for me. I'm not in it for money like you guys though, I just like the idea of getting the latest hardware for free. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: SgtSpike on June 25, 2011, 10:57:44 AM Really? REALLY? So because I might not make a profit tomorrow, I shouldn't mine today? That's the most absurd logic I've ever heard. I'm paying for my electricity 6x over. There is absolutely no reason for me to not mine. It would make zero sense. Sgt. Spike, I was directing my comments towards newbies who might be fooled into thinking they can make an easy steady profit by mining. At the current difficulty level, mining doesn't make sense unless you already have a GPU cluster, since the likelihood of solving a block chain is so high. I just did a calculation using http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php (http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php) Current difficulty: 1379223.42967 Mega Hashes / second: 30.0 (that was on my dual-card Nvidia GPGPU I had used previously) Assuming exchange rate of $15 USD/BTC, since that is about where Mt.Gox was before the big hack. Then the average rate of return, assuming you are engaging in pooled mining is: Coins Dollars per Day ฿0.02 $0.33 per Week ฿0.15 $2.30 per Month ฿0.67 $9.98 That $10 average expected revenue per month doesn't justify the energy cost of me leaving my computer on with the GPU running 24/7 at full blast. Sorry. Again, maybe if you are experienced and have highly optimized energy efficient equipment, then if may work out for you, but I am advising the newbies focus on using whatever unique skill set or trade that they have and offer goods & services in exchange for bitcoin instead of wasting their money buying a mining rig. Your economics may be different though, so you may make your own decision. When you use a single-GPU 5870 that can generate 370MH/s and uses about 200w, the story looks a bit different. Heck, even a 6870 would be a good 10x as good as whatever crap cards you were using. Mining is FAR from being unprofitable. If I had more cash to buy and places to put and cool mining machines, I would do it in a heartbeat. If mining is as profitable as all of the bitcoin fanboys would like everybody to believe, they would have cash to buy mining rigs, space, and employees. The fact of the matter is simply that it isnt. The people that think it is are exposing themselves to immense risk. I bought $1100 worth of mining hardware on April 27th, when the price/difficulty ratio was roughly the same as it is today. I've made an extra $2200 BEYOND what the mining hardware cost. So not only do I have $1100 of free mining equipment, I also have an extra $2200 in my pocket. And that number is still growing quite steadily every day. Total electricity costs have been about $200 for the two months, which I am more than willing to deal with. I'm not sure whether you're just jealous of miner's success, or whether you truly are naive enough to believe that mining isn't very profitable. You say that "if it was as profitable as fanboys say, they would have cash to buy mining rigs, space, and exmployees". It's not a guaranteed enough deal to buy space and employees IMO (who would need employees anyway?), but buying a decent amount of hardware is an extremely low-risk investment with an extremely high ROI. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 10:58:48 AM If mining is as profitable as all of the bitcoin fanboys would like everybody to believe, they would have cash to buy mining rigs, space, and employees. The fact of the matter is simply that it isnt. The people that think it is are exposing themselves to immense risk. I would say that's a good point, but you can't really be too sure what people are actually doing with their rigs/etc. Even with a big site like this, I doubt everyone talks as much as I do about what they're running-- especially when most people want to keep the market from crashing. That being said, the ability to make a profit on something does not magically grant people with good money management skills. In fact, most people are downright dumb to money management. What happens to everyone when they win the lottery? Find $20 on the ground? Yeah, thought so. Let's face it-- anyone who doesn't know how much money can be earned from mining is ignorant of so for the same reason you wouldn't know how much money there is in drug and gun running-- because you don't do it! This doesnt change the fact that if there were money to be made in mining competent entrepreneurs and investors would be attracted to it. This is not the case. They are putting their money elsewhere and seeing higher returns. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 11:02:03 AM Really? REALLY? So because I might not make a profit tomorrow, I shouldn't mine today? That's the most absurd logic I've ever heard. I'm paying for my electricity 6x over. There is absolutely no reason for me to not mine. It would make zero sense. Sgt. Spike, I was directing my comments towards newbies who might be fooled into thinking they can make an easy steady profit by mining. At the current difficulty level, mining doesn't make sense unless you already have a GPU cluster, since the likelihood of solving a block chain is so high. I just did a calculation using http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php (http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php) Current difficulty: 1379223.42967 Mega Hashes / second: 30.0 (that was on my dual-card Nvidia GPGPU I had used previously) Assuming exchange rate of $15 USD/BTC, since that is about where Mt.Gox was before the big hack. Then the average rate of return, assuming you are engaging in pooled mining is: Coins Dollars per Day ฿0.02 $0.33 per Week ฿0.15 $2.30 per Month ฿0.67 $9.98 That $10 average expected revenue per month doesn't justify the energy cost of me leaving my computer on with the GPU running 24/7 at full blast. Sorry. Again, maybe if you are experienced and have highly optimized energy efficient equipment, then if may work out for you, but I am advising the newbies focus on using whatever unique skill set or trade that they have and offer goods & services in exchange for bitcoin instead of wasting their money buying a mining rig. Your economics may be different though, so you may make your own decision. When you use a single-GPU 5870 that can generate 370MH/s and uses about 200w, the story looks a bit different. Heck, even a 6870 would be a good 10x as good as whatever crap cards you were using. Mining is FAR from being unprofitable. If I had more cash to buy and places to put and cool mining machines, I would do it in a heartbeat. If mining is as profitable as all of the bitcoin fanboys would like everybody to believe, they would have cash to buy mining rigs, space, and employees. The fact of the matter is simply that it isnt. The people that think it is are exposing themselves to immense risk. I bought $1100 worth of mining hardware on April 27th, when the price/difficulty ratio was roughly the same as it is today. I've made an extra $2200 BEYOND what the mining hardware cost. So not only do I have $1100 of free mining equipment, I also have an extra $2200 in my pocket. And that number is still growing quite steadily every day. Total electricity costs have been about $200 for the two months, which I am more than willing to deal with. I'm not sure whether you're just jealous of miner's success, or whether you truly are naive enough to believe that mining isn't very profitable. You say that "if it was as profitable as fanboys say, they would have cash to buy mining rigs, space, and exmployees". It's not a guaranteed enough deal to buy space and employees IMO (who would need employees anyway?), but buying a decent amount of hardware is an extremely low-risk investment with an extremely high ROI. If you think that a $2200 over 3 months is an extremely high profit, and you are comfortable with the risk, then that is your choice. I will put my money elsewhere. Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 11:09:45 AM This doesnt change the fact that if there were money to be made in mining competent entrepreneurs and investors would be attracted to it. This is not the case. They are putting their money elsewhere and seeing higher returns. Of course they are putting their money elsewhere--- they are INVESTORS. What do investors do? They look for the highest rates of return. Do you honestly think ANY of the bitcoin community are involved in Bitcoin because it is a high rate of return? If so, all I can say is that you're definitely on the wrong forum. As for not being a good 'investment' for you, take your existing money and throw it any direction you'd like--- but before you toss the pearls out with the swine, BitCoin is new (even 2 years is 'new') and basically not yet accepted in society because it hasn't been refined and publicized enough yet. Do you REALLY think that when ANY country switched to currency instead of physical item trade (or gold) that everyone was happy and accepted it? If so, you're ignorant of history. Your reasons are fine. No one is arguing them. You don't want to do something, who cares? But your idea of Bitcoin, mining and why OTHER people shouldn't try it is a bit skewed. A lot of that going on today. P.S. Keep 'em coming, almost up to 50 posts-- then I disappear ^_^ Ah, my favorite attitude to converse with. "I will never stop arguing and playing devils advocate!" Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: em3rgentOrdr on June 25, 2011, 11:11:23 AM You're using an old NVIDIA card - of course it's not going to be profitable for you. ::) Ahh yes...those were the days. I remember when I got to use my 9800gx2 when the first bitcoin GPGPU miner code came out about a year ago. I was a happy miner back then when the difficulty was much easier. :) When you use a single-GPU 5870 that can generate 370MH/s and uses about 200w, the story looks a bit different. Heck, even a 6870 would be a good 10x as good as whatever crap cards you were using. Yeah, I know that the AMD cards are much better at integer code. This was a card I got as a freebie from NVIDIA 3 years ago. Again, if you are experienced and known how to fine tune your hardware and code for optimal hashes/Joule, then I'd say go for it. Mining is FAR from being unprofitable. If I had more cash to buy and places to put and cool mining machines, I would do it in a heartbeat. Basically, that's the thing. You don't have the cash to buy since you either weren't making enough profit or you have a better opportunity cost for you money. And you don't have space to put your GPU mining rig. There is an opportunity cost in terms of the physical space (and possible noise pollution) that it takes up, in addition to your cooling, energy, setup/monitoring labor, and fixed hardware costs. Bitcoin mining should be profitable for those who know what they are doing (due to market forces), but I'm am just cautioning the Newbies that TANSSAFL. That $10 average expected revenue per month doesn't justify the energy cost of me leaving my computer on with the GPU running 24/7 at full blast. Sorry. Again, maybe if you are experienced and have highly optimized energy efficient equipment, then if may work out for you, but I am advising the newbies focus on using whatever unique skill set or trade that they have and offer goods & services in exchange for bitcoin instead of wasting their money buying a mining rig. Your economics may be different though, so you may make your own decision. As a PC Gamer, mining is still profitable for me. I've got the hardware already and my computer is always on. The extra electricity costs are tiny for me. I'm not in it for money like you guys though, I just like the idea of getting the latest hardware for free. Yes, that is my point. If you are a PC Gamer who continually buys the latest GPU hardware already and leave your computer on already, then it probably does make economic sense for you. Mining is FAR from being unprofitable. If I had more cash to buy and places to put and cool mining machines, I would do it in a heartbeat. If mining is as profitable as all of the bitcoin fanboys would like everybody to believe, they would have cash to buy mining rigs, space, and employees. The fact of the matter is simply that it isnt. The people that think it is are exposing themselves to immense risk. I think you hit the nail on the head here. There are market forces at work. Immense risk? Not really... the most I risk is the 25% or so I'd lose on reselling any hardware I purchased. Hardly what I would call immense. I bought $1100 worth of mining hardware on April 27th, when the price/difficulty ratio was roughly the same as it is today. I've made an extra $2200 BEYOND what the mining hardware cost. So not only do I have $1100 of free mining equipment, I also have an extra $2200 in my pocket. And that number is still growing quite steadily every day. Total electricity costs have been about $200 for the two months, which I am more than willing to deal with. I'm not sure whether you're just jealous of miner's success, or whether you truly are naive enough to believe that mining isn't very profitable. You say that "if it was as profitable as fanboys say, they would have cash to buy mining rigs, space, and exmployees". It's not a guaranteed enough deal to buy space and employees IMO (who would need employees anyway?), but buying a decent amount of hardware is an extremely low-risk investment with an extremely high ROI. If you think that a $2200 over 3 months is an extremely high profit, and you are comfortable with the risk, then that is your choice. I will put my money elsewhere. Yes, that is significant risk. Try to maintain that profit margin. I made tons of money early on too, but I realize that the network will be flooded with extreme gamers with idle GPUs and energy-efficient mining specialists that I know to not bother competing. In fact, I know enough to realize this thread is not worth my time. :) Nice talking with everyone! P.S. Keep 'em coming, almost up to 50 posts-- then I disappear ^_^ Go figure. ;) He is a tried and true troll. Very experienced troll I must say. And has enough guts to admit he's just trolling to increase his post count. ::) It's rare to find an honest troll nowadays. :) Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 25, 2011, 11:14:17 AM You're using an old NVIDIA card - of course it's not going to be profitable for you. ::) Ahh yes...those were the days. I remember when I got to use my 9800gx2 when the first bitcoin GPGPU miner code came out about a year ago. I was a happy miner back then when the difficulty was much easier. :) When you use a single-GPU 5870 that can generate 370MH/s and uses about 200w, the story looks a bit different. Heck, even a 6870 would be a good 10x as good as whatever crap cards you were using. Yeah, I know that the AMD cards are much better at integer code. This was a card I got as a freebie from NVIDIA 3 years ago. Again, if you are experienced and known how to fine tune your hardware and code for optimal hashes/Joule, then I'd say go for it. Mining is FAR from being unprofitable. If I had more cash to buy and places to put and cool mining machines, I would do it in a heartbeat. Basically, that's the thing. You don't have the cash to buy since you either weren't making enough profit or you have a better opportunity cost for you money. And you don't have space to put your GPU mining rig. There is an opportunity cost in terms of the physical space (and possible noise pollution) that it takes up, in addition to your cooling, energy, setup/monitoring labor, and fixed hardware costs. Bitcoin mining should be profitable for those who know what they are doing (due to market forces), but I'm am just cautioning the Newbies that TANSSAFL. That $10 average expected revenue per month doesn't justify the energy cost of me leaving my computer on with the GPU running 24/7 at full blast. Sorry. Again, maybe if you are experienced and have highly optimized energy efficient equipment, then if may work out for you, but I am advising the newbies focus on using whatever unique skill set or trade that they have and offer goods & services in exchange for bitcoin instead of wasting their money buying a mining rig. Your economics may be different though, so you may make your own decision. As a PC Gamer, mining is still profitable for me. I've got the hardware already and my computer is always on. The extra electricity costs are tiny for me. I'm not in it for money like you guys though, I just like the idea of getting the latest hardware for free. Yes, that is my point. If you are a PC Gamer who continually buys the latest GPU hardware already and leave your computer on already, then it probably does make economic sense for you. Mining is FAR from being unprofitable. If I had more cash to buy and places to put and cool mining machines, I would do it in a heartbeat. If mining is as profitable as all of the bitcoin fanboys would like everybody to believe, they would have cash to buy mining rigs, space, and employees. The fact of the matter is simply that it isnt. The people that think it is are exposing themselves to immense risk. I think you hit the nail on the head here. There are market forces at work. Immense risk? Not really... the most I risk is the 25% or so I'd lose on reselling any hardware I purchased. Hardly what I would call immense. I bought $1100 worth of mining hardware on April 27th, when the price/difficulty ratio was roughly the same as it is today. I've made an extra $2200 BEYOND what the mining hardware cost. So not only do I have $1100 of free mining equipment, I also have an extra $2200 in my pocket. And that number is still growing quite steadily every day. Total electricity costs have been about $200 for the two months, which I am more than willing to deal with. I'm not sure whether you're just jealous of miner's success, or whether you truly are naive enough to believe that mining isn't very profitable. You say that "if it was as profitable as fanboys say, they would have cash to buy mining rigs, space, and exmployees". It's not a guaranteed enough deal to buy space and employees IMO (who would need employees anyway?), but buying a decent amount of hardware is an extremely low-risk investment with an extremely high ROI. If you think that a $2200 over 3 months is an extremely high profit, and you are comfortable with the risk, then that is your choice. I will put my money elsewhere. Yes, that is significant risk. Try to maintain that profit margin. I made tons of money early on too, but I realize that the network will be flooded with extreme gamers with idle GPUs and energy-efficient mining specialists that I know to not bother competing. In fact, I know enough to realize this thread is not worth my time. :) Nice talking with everyone! P.S. Keep 'em coming, almost up to 50 posts-- then I disappear ^_^ Go figure. ;) He is a tried and true troll. Very experienced troll I must say. And has enough guts to admit he's just trolling to increase his post count. ::) It's rare to find an honest troll nowadays. :) Great talking to a sensible entrepreneurial thinker, possible Austrian economic thinker as well :) Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: em3rgentOrdr on June 25, 2011, 11:17:59 AM Great talking to a sensible entrepreneurial thinker, possible Austrian economic thinker as well :) Likewise. And yes, you are correct in that I am heavily influenced by the Austrian tradition. :) Title: Re: Mining is not profitable, but Bitcoins can be... Post by: WillMitchell on June 26, 2011, 05:32:28 AM Don't worry, you won't hear from me again until I start posting screen shots of all my income for further speculation and 'sh00p' claims. Haters gonna' hate I guess. Id be happy to see! |