Bitcoin Forum

I'm waiting to hear the answer to this.  There isn't anything that any of these new alt coins offer that LTC/BTC can't copy if they work.  Please tell me how any of these alt coins are anything but an experiment for new ideas for LTC/BTC to take from if they work?  Anyone?

I have a new word for everyone here.

You aren't altcoiners you are "Lab rats"

Thanks for trying out new things for us.

Cheers!

The new ones you might be right.

But some old ones add something to bitcoin, by using the same hashing power via merged mining, adding features such as a database (namecoin), a support structure for supporting free open source stuff (devcoin), and very very fast confirmations (GeistGeld), all without diverting hashing power away from bitcoin.

-MarkM-

There are exceptions to every rule, true.  NMC, DVC, PPC are some of them.  Still don't see a future for geistgeld but then that's my own opinion.   

Still waiting to hear what these new altcoins bring to the table other than tweaks of ltc/btc.  Anyone?

Many of them claim fast confirmations is their big innovation, that is the main reason I mentioned GeistGeld.

Basically we already have as fast as you can realistically get, damn near too fast, heck have we even really thoroughly tested it enough to be sure it isn't too fast, and we do it without diverting hashing power from bitcoin. So all the pretense that being fast is so useful are pretty much revealed as just pathetic/transparent pretences, their real motive being to pump and dump, since if they were seriously interested in exploring whether fast blocks can work we already have been trying to have that load-tested for years now and they don't seem to have even bothered with the experiment, preferring to just do another pump and dump...

In essence, "bitcoin CAN do very fast confirmations, simply by merging GeistGeld alongside..."

-MarkM-

you make it sound derogatory, but there's nothing wrong with testing out changes in behavior. There's only something "wrong" with it if you dumped a money in it hoping your coin would go from $0.01 per coin to $100 per coin.

I'd be thrilled if bitcoin at least had a solution to the problem elacoin tries to solve, even if it's not the same solution(part of the problem is that many disagree it's a problem, which is easy to do when you have bitcoins and they're going up against the dollar)

Ok, I see where you are coming from with geistgeld then.  I was wondering.  I saw it as just an experiment for bitcoin myself.  But I get it now, we see it the same way then.

The only thing that bothers me Mark about these pump and dumps is they seem to suck reality out of people's brains is the only reason I made this thread.  They so blindly follow and so blindly throw their money at these copies of copies it makes me cringe when I go to sleep at night.  There are real people that buy into this bullshit.

BTW, thanks for actually having a discussion instead of another strawman/derogatory thread. 

Cheers mate!

Also, I'm waiting to hear what your coin can do that BTC/LTC can't.  Still waiting...

Well that is another nice thing about GeistGeld and the other low-difficulty merged-mined coins, and even Tenebrix and Fairbrix: they are really easy to mine, so far they have gone vast spans of time during which all the little people can mine them so very easily, much of the time even with CPUs.

So maybe all the pump and dump coins are doing the genuine smallfry a big favour by keeping all the big mining farm people distracted allowing still more time for the small miners to quietly stockpile low-difficulty coins.

Maybe once the Mergecoin repo is ready and all the merged coins upgrade to the fancy new bitcoin code with its new database and fast getting of blockchain and so on the small miner's long long opportunity to quetly stockpile those coins will finally end as big miners grab the new code and try to rape all the coins... that the small miners all have lots of by now, having had so many many months unmolested by the big guys...

-MarkM-

BTC and LTC are just beta coins until better coins along....   Loving WDC and DGC for their instant transaction times :)   I honestly hate transferring Bitcoins now after using wdc all the time..

I love the way you think.



You are missing the point. BTC/LTC can adopt what WDC and DGC offer.  They are just tweaks of LTC.  Sorry again.

Waiting...

[snark] keep a block chain from forking? [/snark]

untrue, many coins ive played with fork nicely. (and we just forked elc by hand! whee!)

TRC had some fun times today

as for LTC/BTC can cant whatever, in case no one noticed, ALL coins are affected by ASIC mining.

every coin is fungible with every other. minimal 1-2% friction there.

so no matter how great your coin is and what it 'does' speculators from other coins will spill over. its all ONE GIANT COIN now. and people thought they could invent ASIC-resistant coins. lul'd.

oh, and I love WDC for the instant orphan times too, as per previous poster. Well said. (consider dumping a big rig onto the coin at a very nicely calculated time to null out a transaction. double spend?)

pump&dump

what they have is different ppl behind them

Ugh again I have to ask this - What can LTC/BTC do that another coin can't? It goes both ways.  I know one thing though, a new coin can make YOU filthy stinking rich, whereas btc has already made others rich.

1 point for you

You are missing the point. BTC/LTC can adopt what WDC and DGC offer.  They are just tweaks of LTC.  Sorry again.
[/quote]

Lol, don't think it works like that mate....  In your own words LTC is just a tweak of BTC...

There is no reason other altcoins can live side by side, if not overtake bitcoin in the future.  I believe bitcoin is the start of cryptocurrencies, but not the end.

Lol, don't think it works like that mate....  In your own words LTC is just a tweak of BTC...
[/quote]

Actually no. LTC uses scrypt.  BTC uses sha.

Sorry not a tweak.  Completely different.

Everything else is just a copy off of those.

People are fucking stupid.  I'm done here.  Good luck idiots throwing your time and money away.

Hello guys

I want to know why are you guys fighting on this topic for over a month that other alt coins are copy and they don't deserve to exist or they are just for experiments.

If things really worked like this in the real world then there are many countries which have dollar as there national currency and their exchange rates are also different Should we call those currencies an alternate of USD. Just like if we can't call those dollars alternate so why in the crypto world. Each crypto has its own community and its own world. So leave it like that.

Just consider Bitcoin as USD , LTC as what ever country you would like and other alts as well.

Actually no. LTC uses scrypt.  BTC uses sha.

Sorry not a tweak.  Completely different.

Everything else is just a copy off of those.

People are fucking stupid.  I'm done here.  Good luck idiots throwing your time and money away.
[/quote]

yes and scrypt is the tweak lol it is still based off bitcoin with slight alterations........   you sound like a butthurt little girl who got left holding a bag of worthless coins? Am I right lol?

comes in, flames others, completely ignores my post which shoots down ANY of his points. Winning. From some of his recent posts I am starting to believe he is heavily invested in btc/ltc and just trying to protect those investments by causing distrust in altcoins.

Bitcoiner's main crypto currency investments seem to be Bitcoin and Litecoin from what I can tell. Litecoin has gone from $0.04 to $2.65 in a year, and Bitcoin has gone from $5.00 to $120 in a year. So I'd say the last thing he's doing is holding a worthless bag of coins.

He might be a bit trollish about his antics proving other coins are just copy cats and get rich quick schemes/pump and dumps, but he does have a point. Copy cat coins don't provide the cryptocoin ecosystem with any extra advantages that crypto users can't already do.

In fact, the copy cat cryptocoins weaken the entire cryptocoin community by diverting developers and community support. Imagine if all the developers that are working on things for ALTs were all developing things for Bitcoin and Litecoin. There would be so many new services and exciting things that everyone could benefit from and wouldnt have to own X coin or Y coin or Z coin.

In summary, a new ALT coin is only useful and only benefits the community if it is innovative. As far as just changing a few parameters, that's not innovative. People have been doing it for years.

Competition makes for better innovation. Implying there should only be one or two cryptos that everyone supports is like saying only one type of tree should have evolved in the world because their is only one type of soil. We all know that neither of those statements return true.

As for LTC being innovative, give me a break, TENEBRIX (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45667.0)

What can the coins I support do better then LTC/BTC?
Create a better community.

And that in my opinion is worth its weight in gold.

Tenebrix was premined, also the developer abandoned it along with the community.

Litecoin developers are still very much active- they are about to update the code to include all improvements up to Bitcoin v0.8.x

All the ALTs that copied off of Litecoin at its current state will be running Bitcoin v0.6.3 code. I hope these pump and dump developers are savvy enough to upgrade their coins like Litecoin is doing, otherwise eventually they will be left behind and forgotten (most of them are headed this way anyways.)

Also... create a better community? Bitcoin/Litecoin has a huge community, good luck trying to surpass all their development and services, etc. They are already ahead and have a bigger community to develop sites/services/updates to stay ahead in well into the future. There are also many more people invested into Bitcoin/Litecoin than any other crypto currency, so more people have incentive to make things and start projects because it increases value.

If by Tenebrix developer you mean Artforz, yes he is a bit of a recluse it seems, but Lolcust is still in touch with him and Lolcust is still active on Freenode in #Tenebrix channel.

SInce people apparently do not want the super huge coin-mixer anonymity system the pre-mine was intended to enable he has been suggesting he might as well just destroy those pre-mined coins. Sheesh does he have to? Isn't there anything better they could be used for?

-MarkM-

Well.. I didn't mean the developer abandoned the community, but that the community abandoned Tenebrix and then the developer stopped developing things for it.

I think if the premine was destroyedp for or put up for bounties, perhaps Tenebrix could become popular again... like a BBQ coin type of thing, but it is based on an ancient version of Bitcoin.   :-\

hey just one question :

do you own a Cat ?

Why update the code? What purpose does it serve to "upgrade your coins"? Mind explaining for us newcomers to the community?

Before someone spouts off something about newbies - we are buyers too and compete for value.

Because the code on which all the cryptos are based is not bug free. And since most of the coins are a copy of either bitcoin or litecoin they will most likely contain the same bugs as found in bitcoin and litecoin.

Most of the devs of the 'new' coins have no clue how the whole of the system functions so they will need to follow the bug fixes from the coins with larger dev communities so their coin does not get destroyed by known vulnerabilities.

Oh really, why not improve the whole world using this amazing discovery?

All governments perform pretty much the same function, so why don't we just have one government?

Actually, all people are pretty similar, and wouldn't it be better if we just had the first one that proves he can be a leader as our leader forever. It would be so much better if everyone just backed one guy with all their taxes and lives.

While we're at it, why don't we optimize our health care system too according to this amazing theory? If we find a drug that cures a disease after a month, why don't we all just back the usage of that drug? Why waist all the money to develop new drugs if all that's better is a speed difference? Why bother to push the limits when it works just fine? Or maybe we'll develop one that's just a tiny bit faster, and stick to two. Yes, two sound like the perfect number. No more improvement needed.

Why do we even have brands that sell similar stuff? Let us get rid of them all and just have one big brand that we can all support and it would be able to provide us all with such amazing benefits. Everyone knows monopolies are the best thing for everyone.



P.S. Some people on this forum are a disgrace to decentralization.

I dont quite get why we're splitting religions here so harshly. Can we start a civil war over it?

Anyway, I think external not internal factors will decide which coin wins. What those factors are are up in the air, but two big factors that will likely play a part are Wall St, and the US Govt. It's already started.

Stay tuned.

This forum is for alt-coins... if you don't like them why do you come here and post?

I get your point. However, you are relating real world problems/situations that have nothing to do with decentralized currencies. I do agree there is room for more than one or a few crypto currencies. However most of the new ALT coins, like your coin Digicoin, people only changed a few variables from Litecoin and called it a day. We already have a bunch of copy cat coins, we don't need anymore. I even consider Litecoin for the most part a copy cat coin, however at the time it was created there wasn't 50 ALT coins being released a month, allowing a large community to grow around it and adopt it. I support Litecoin because of this community.

I prefer to see more innovation than what the new coins provide to support an ALT coin, and I know most people that have been around the forums for a while feel the same way. Most of these coins will die a slow death because innovative coins will come along and people will forget about most of the new ALT coins. Bitcoin and Litecoin will stay around for a long time even if better coins are released because of their time on the market and the huge communities that support, develop, and improve them. Also, many more people are invested into both Bitcoin and Litecoin, so there is incentive for that improvement to continue.

These new coins all have many different factions of small communities of enthusiasts that improve their coins, which pale in comparison to the Bitcoin/Litecoin communities. This will ultimately work against each other, as many small groups of people can only accomplish so much, compared to a much larger group of people striving for the same goals.

Again, I don't mind new coins but I want innovative coins. There are so many projects of truly unique coins and great ideas that are being developed. Why should I support all these new copy and past coins when there are much more innovative coins being developed/about to be released. Coins that will truly change the crypto currency ecosystem, not just a few variables changed.




This is silly, Bitcoin/Litecoin are as decentralized as crypto currencies get. Creating a new ALT coin doesn't make anything more or less decentralized. They are all decentralized inherently in each coin's code.

And you have to admit that creating more and more ALT coins with hardly any differences splits the developers and communities time spent working on useless ALTs, when they could be improving/creating something for the rest of the 98% of the cryptocoin community that don't use <insert random ALT coin here>. Everything that is developed for most of these new ALT coins I and most of the cryptocoin community will never use. Most of the cryptocoin community doesn't even use Litecoin.. only Bitcoin, so anything developed for a chain smaller than Litecoin is going to get a lot less use inherently because of the sizes of the communities.

It's hilarious some of you guys that come in here and trash alt coins.  That's idiotic because altcoins are more profitable to mine.  Who gives a damn if they are worth anything long term.  We're all here to make money and I'm making more money mining alts than I did with bitcoin.  And they are also ASIC resistant, at least for a while.  Don't get me wrong, we love bitcoin and we want the value of bitcoin to stay strong.  

If you're one of those guys that has 50Gh+ ASIC machines then I applaud you, if though you are mining bitcoin with video cards, that's just plain stupid.

It can be upgraded pretty darn easily to be based on a new version of Litecoin, based in turn on a recent version of bitcoin, once litecoin is updated. :)

Same for Fairbrix, which right now doesn't even have a daemon version.

-MarkM-

What can Firefox, Chrome, and IE do that Netscape could not?

The winner is not necessarily the product that came first but, rather, the one that the market, possibly irrationally, adopts

See VHS v/ Betamax.  VHS was actually inferior in many ways

Yacoin doesn't divert hashing power from bitcoin either.

okay here's the test. Totally remove yourself from being invested or having your feeling about different crypto coins. Pretend none of them are established yet, 2 will have high value, they all start at $1 in value, and you have no idea what anyone else would pick. What 2 coins would you invest in?

OP makes a weak argument.  What do any alt coins bring that BTC or LTC can't replicate.  

This is a weak argument because BTC and or LTC will not implement the changes, it would be too disruptive to the existing value of the respective currencies.  Many of the developers are financially invested in the coins themselves and would not implement a feature that would risk the loss of value.  As a result BTC and LTC will not implement any changes and even if the decision was made to do so it would be a slow and gradual implementation over several years.  The goose is laying golden eggs.

Heh, coins that started at $1 per coin in value include CDN, GMC, GRF and UNS; UKB started at about $1.5 or $1.4 or whatever, the dollars versus pounds ratio. MBC started at $5 or so, less than bitcoins were back then but more than the other national/corporate coins. Look at them now:

http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html

The big problem of UKB and CDN was they kept trying to stay on par with GBP or CAD, respectively, by selling off coins cheap (so as not to go too high in value, that is, higher in value than GBP or CAD). The MBC folk tended to buy up those cheap UKB and CDN.

So maybe the coin to bet on is the one that buys up all the others whenever they are dirt cheap, because it will have huge amounts of all the others with which to keep its own price/value high...

(Hmm, so, does that maybe mean bet on bitcoin and litecoin? Or is there some other coin for which holders of the others habitually dump at dirt cheap prices?)

-MarkM-

I am the cat.  I am eating all you lab rats one by one.

Lol.  My bag of litecoins are worth a lot more than your shit coins I can tell you that.  Try again.

the irony here... bitcoin is essentially an altcurrency... just as fiat currency was an alt to silver/gold/etc... (and as another mentioned there are plenty of alt fiats)... and just as metals and gems were alts to whatever we used before them to facilitate trade... it's all just an evolutionary part of our interactions. and if there's one thing humans love to do, it's create... the copy stage is just a natural part of that process... copy - create - learn - innovate

so, here's a real question: Why the hostility? Are these cryptocurrency experimenters hurting you? This is just a ride. We're experiencing an evolution of something... How about an alternate perspective (bear with me here, i know how you feel about alternates  :P ) : Many altcoin creators may just be experimenting, learning something new, perhaps even new to programming in general... so they dive into creating their own altcoin for whatever reason... they make mistakes, some creations meet an early end, they try again... time goes on and the inexperienced become experienced... through trial and error (knowing how things can go wrong and how to fix it can be very helpful) and a genuine desire to create something of their own (one of the most powerful internal motivating forces we possess)...

Now they're ready to offer improvements to Bitcoin.  ;)

So to answer your question of what these altcoins offer that bitcoin and litecoin don't: mistake-fodder. There's a reason medical students practice on cadavers before becoming surgeons... why pilots practice in flight simulators before actually flying a plane... why divers practice in pools... or rock climbers on walls with harnesses......... i can't think of anymore...  ;D

There is a point in all of this person who joined less then two months ago.  Sorry you can't read between the lines.  Also, this isn't biology.  There isn't anything here that can't be replicated by any other shit coin or coin before or after it.  Oh, did I give away the point?  Wow people are dense.

There is ZERO innovation.  Sorry changing a few lines of code is NOT innovation.

Reason why altcoin is bashed as scam coin? 2 words "ASIC miners"

Says the person who joined two months ago and is trying to get as many of the new scam coins out there.

You can create a new alt in less than a couple hours by changing the parameters/code.  All you need is a "cool"  name and logo to follow.  It doesn't take talent.

So....

Litecoin isn't really that cool of a name

And yet the coins you invest in only change a few parameters of Litecoin's code.  Hm...

And Litecoin changed a few parameters of Bitcoin's code.  Your point? 

You joined less than a month ago and profess to know bitcoin's code? lol.  Um sha versus scrypt.  Everything else is a copy.

BTW, do you know the true difference between sha and scrypt?  Since you proclaim so much already.

Lose value!

Lol, do you?  Litecoin - dumb name, price based purely on mtgox speculation....   Litecoin is just a wannabe bitcoin....    Just like everyother coin that comes along.... When sha   asic miners come along what difference is there between LTC and BTC?

Well, in reality Litecoin wasn't the first coin to utilize scrypt, so wouldn't that make it just another clone in your eyes?

Does this mean that you also think YAC is going places because it altered the hashing algo?

The entirety of the cryptocurrency field is so condensed at this point that it is impossible to tell what will and won't succeed. It's difficult to say exactly what bitcoin can do at this point. The only thing that bitcoin can do right now that, say, bytecoin can't do is buy drugs.

The testing of shorter block times is an important step towards the development of cryptocurrencies. We can be absolutely certain that one hour transaction times are not suitable for a daily economy, so it is important to have a testing ground for different ideas. If you support cryptocurrency development as a whole you should be supporting alt-coin development. You yourself called the altcoins "lab rats" for bitcoin and litecoin. The difference between you and the rest of the community is that you seem to be against the progress that altcoins are trying to achieve. If you truly believe that bitcoin can adopt any advancement that is successfully implemented in an alternative cryptocurrency then you should be supportive of the alt community. They are doing the dirty work. Sure, coins like sexcoin and porncoin added nothing to the community, but that doesn't mean the possibility wasn't there. They successfully proved that people aren't stupid enough to latch onto a coin just because sex is in the name. Now bitcoin doesn't have to become bitsexcoin.

Given that you have explicitly stated that your goals in this subforum are not of a monetary nature, your actions and your words seem contradictory.I'm sure I will get a snide remark about when I joined the forum as a response.

NEWS FLASH TO GENIUS - The Litecoin developers did not invent scrypt

shhs Fenican let him continue on his blind rampage lol......

Most "noobs" don't know this, but shorter block times were tested 2 years ago in an ALT currency named GeistGeld. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=42417.0

Seriously? Mistake-fodder wasn't good enough for you? Would you prefer a first year med-student or a surgeon with 10 years of experience to operate on you? So likewise, would you prefer a curious noob or someone that's done two years of trial and error on their own coin to offer improvements to bitcoin?

Or is all this because you just wanna bitch about something? Keep going if that's the case, 'cos you're cracking me up! :D

/popcorn


Seriously, as others have pointed out, they offer a collection of ideas for the market to test out, and for promising devs to get their bones.  Those are reason enough.  I agree with the OP that throwing money, whether fiat or BTC, into one or more of these alt coins with the hope of getting rich is a Very Bad Idea.  But that impulse, if not applied to altcoins, would simply be applied elsewhere.  It's not the fault of altcoins that some people take get-rich-quick actions that will hurt them in the end. I feel bad for them; I feel worse for their families.

But for people who are just playing around, or are serious about learning the ropes, altcoins are a great place to come and do it.  The OP seems to suggest that a lack of true innovation = failure.  I argue that Satoshi-level innovation should not be expected of anyone but Satoshi.  But even Satoshi had to learn a thing or two before s/he/they unleashed the beast that is Bitcoin.

Then what is innovation as per your perception. Alt coins are just like alt currencies to bitcoin. As there are lots of altcurrencies  not every company uses USD as there national currency. In my opinion there should be variety for people to select from. Why you guys use LTC its also a kind of altcoin eventhough it did some innovation but still its a altcoin. Start criticizing it too.

I am the inventor and chief advocate of Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzungencoin

I answer your tedious questions:

1) Why Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzungencoin rather than LTC/BTC

Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzungencoin is utterly immune to ASIC factoring and is thus the coin of the GPU masses not and elite clique of ASIC fags and freemasons

2) Why does Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzungencoin have such a long name?

Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzungencoin is a meaningful name that aims to promote Teutonic functionality over vapid Anglo-American jingoism