Bitcoin Forum

(This is the first part in a series of posts in which I aim to thoroughly describe my viewpoint on the recent Bitcoin forks. Reading only one part in this series may lead you to a wrong conclusion. Stay tuned to get a thorough snapshot of my viewpoint.)

Free Market Dynamics

I would like to clarify that the title is sarcasm. The recent Bitcoin forks are (approximately) the five millionth (more sarcasm) forks of bitcoin/blockhain technology/ideology. Many forks have come (and most have already have gone) before, and there is no doubt that there are many more to come in the future.

(This is the second part in a series of posts in which I aim to thoroughly describe my viewpoint on the recent Bitcoin forks. Reading only one part in this series may lead you to a wrong conclusion. Stay tuned to get a thorough snapshot of my viewpoint.)

Social Consensus

It has been years since I started following the numerous debates and commentary regarding which cryptocurrency everyone fancies. One measuring stick has always been regurgitated ad naseam. No matter how many years have passed, how many times its been debated, or whoever weighs in on the debate, different consensus algorithms are championed by different people, and for different reasons.

Although forks are good for a free market, it does not mean that we have to agree with the fork, nor does it automatically mean that the fork is a good investment either. Ultimately, the best fork will win out eventually. That is the beauty of the free market. So, sit back and relax, and fork Bitcoin as much as you like, because we are better off because of such at the end of the day.

There's no end to this forking stuff...

Unless there's a significant change worthy of mass media coverage that reach to casual people and awake their interest, you'll see as many forks as you like coming at you. But Bitcoin will stay on the top of the ranking.

Get used to the forks. This is the developer's way of putting work into Bitcoin and making slight incremental improvements. Sure, the majority of the hard forks have been useless (except maybe Litecoin) but I'm sure in the future the upgrades will be significant enough that they will warrant attention from the rest of us. Bitcoin is slow, expensive and clunky, but it will be used as the legacy system for future upgrades.

The smart play here is to buy Bitcoins and hold during every hard fork. It's unpredictable to tell which forks will be more valuable than others. So immediately reinvesting your forked Bitcoins back into Bitcoin could be a very profitable strategy.

It may end up that one version of Bitcoin (Bitcoin Gold, maybe?) could become the miner's favorite, the original Bitcoin could be the investors favorite, and maybe some type of Bitcoin in the future will benefit banks and corporations. Maybe we'll have the perfect version with 0 transactions fees, and instant confirmations.....who knows. Even if each new version feels the same, the point is that each hard fork is an upgrade of some kind. 

What fork do you support and what positive advantages do these forks have on Bitcoin?

it is indeed a free market, and also bitcoin is open source and under MIT license but this only means you can fork it and make your own thing. this means doing something like Charlie Lee did back in 2011. he forked bitcoin and created a new altcoin called Litecoin. that is why this coin has been serious and alive for the past 6 years.

but when you fork, then use bitcoin blockchain then disrupt bitcoin market, disrupt mining (hashrate like what EDA of BCH did), and start social attacks on bitcoin like what Roger Verr and the shills like @25hashcoin a couple of comments above are doing, that is a clear attack. you can no longer call it "free market".

Another thing we should be against is when the top Bitcoin merchants and the largest miners come together to make an agreement expecting the community to follow them.

Same as the August 01 fork. I believe this will make bitcoin more stronger. Will have some minor collapse though before a rapid growth.

Read all of part one here: www.decentralized.tech/blogs/part-1-bitcoin-core-bitcoin-cash-bitcoin-gold-and-bitcoin-2x-oh-my

But what if we consider that in a different way?  For example, in capitalism generally, no company brings a product to market expecting people not to use it.  They all want people to use their products.  They bring something to market with the expectation of making money and being a profitable company.  That's how it has always been.  It's down to you, the consumer, to decide which product you want to use.  You even have the right to boycott companies if you don't believe them to be behaving ethically.

The alternative is asking for a centralised authority, usually a government, to dictate which products can or can't come to the market, with issues around protectionism, "the Nanny-State", corruption and monopoly becoming all too prevalent.  No one wants that.  Or at least, I hope they don't.  So we let the market sort it out.  The best product gets the highest market share, in theory, at least.  And agreements don't necessarily create the best products.

So why fight it when you can't prevent it without sacrificing the very thing that makes it good?  It's either a free-for-all where everyone competes, or you put someone, or a group of someones, in a position of power in the vague hope that they will protect your interests, even though it usually just turns out that they selfishly serve their own interests instead when they realise no one can stop them.

I'd argue that no one should be against it when you stop to consider the alternative.

Good Evening CoinHoarder,

I've been trying to research Bitcoin Gold and found https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2240541.1260.  Is this the same Bitcoin Gold that you're talking about?  Did the choice to change from a GPU/Equihash Algo switch to a POS system based coin with a 95% Airdrop? 

Update:  Some further research turned up even more "Bitcoin Gold" coin references:  http://btcgpu.org/  and https://bitcoinexchangeguide.com/bitcoin-gpu/  as well as BitcoinG referenced here in this ANN post, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2240541.msg22707008#msg22707008.  BitcoinG, BTCGPU, and BTG, which is the real Bitcoin Gold that is set to come out October 25 or all they are the same thing?  If so then Bitcoin Gold is POS and on the waves platform?  It's all a bit confusing, please advise.


Thank you,
mimagneto

We are talking about Bitcoin, hard forks and its community. It is an open source project, not a "product" some company made. If you start thinking about Bitcoin as some "product" that should be controlled by a group of "companies" then you are lost.

I agree, let the market sort it out. But it is not only that, there is the community too. If the majority of nodes start running Segwit2x/btc1 then ok. If not, then the miners will have a big problem having their blocks accepted. Remember, nodes give demand for blocks that the miners make.

As you said, let the market decide. If there is a fight, let that chaos bring us to a better place.

one thing that needs to be mentioned and repeated over and over and even stickied on top of all bitcoin related places, so that everyone remembers it, is the following:

bitcoin is what the majority says it is.
you can fork bitcoin as much as you want and with as little hashrate as you want. but in the end if the majority accepts that fork, it will be bitcoin. as an example you can always look at bitcoin cash. the majority said it is an altcoin so it is an altcoin. and the same will always be true about any other fork.

Luckily their attempts have been marked by continuous failed altcoins...
"Bitcoin Classic" failure
"Bitcoin XT" failure
"Bitcoin Unlimited" failure
"Bitcoin Cash" failure
coming soon..."Bitcoin Segwit2x" (BTC1) failure

Same as the August 01 fork. I believe this will make bitcoin more stronger. Will have some minor collapse though before a rapid growth.

I just love these forks. They come and go as easily as I pass wind and every time I get some free coins to sell. I use the proceeds from these free coins to buy more bitcoins. Let the people like Roger Ver and his partners, who are supporting these chains, pay for our legacy bitcoins. Suckers are born every day! ^LoL^

We see them come and we see them go.... forkoff as much as you want. ^smile^

Nope, I've made my thoughts about control in Bitcoin (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2109675.msg21154668#msg21154668) pretty plain.  I feel that no one group can achieve anything of real worth unless there is a natural synergy between Devs, Miners and Users.  Developers, in a sense, are competing for market share, as all they can really do is release what they think is the right code and hope that the other participants in Bitcoin agree, but now other developers have other ideas, resulting in competition and rivalry.  I was just drawing a comparison with products and companies to illustrate.  But whatever happens, no one is in control.

This is the part I find most intriguing.  What does the real demand look like?  Who really cares and are they willing to run a full node to show it?  How many 2x non-mining nodes will there be after the fork?  How many is enough to maintain the network securely?  Could there be geographical gaps in the network topology if there aren't sufficient nodes in certain regions?  It's all going to be a pretty fascinating learning experience that will hopefully provide useful data and statistics for the future.

Amen.

I am supporting tge fork that qill happen this oct. But my problem is,I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO PUT MY BITCOIN to get the BTG. So guys which wallets support this forking?

What fork do you support and what positive advantages do these forks have on Bitcoin? I believe only a supporter of a fork and people looking forward to split their coins will have the same sentiment as giving them a chance.

I also want to know your thoughts in Jeff Garzik's decision on not including replay protection in Segwit2x/btc1.

(This is the second part in a series of posts in which I aim to thoroughly describe my viewpoint on the recent Bitcoin forks. Reading only one part in this series may lead you to a wrong conclusion. Stay tuned to get a thorough snapshot of my viewpoint.)

Social Consensus

It has been years since I started following the numerous debates and commentary regarding which cryptocurrency everyone fancies. One measuring stick has always been regurgitated ad naseam. No matter how many years have passed, how many times its been debated, or whoever weighs in on the debate, different consensus algorithms are championed by different people, and for different reasons.

What fork do you support and what positive advantages do these forks have on Bitcoin? I believe only a supporter of a fork and people looking forward to split their coins will have the same sentiment as giving them a chance.

I also want to know your thoughts in Jeff Garzik's decision on not including replay protection in Segwit2x/btc1.

Question, why is it that this forum, or anyone around crypto would be interested in your opinion? One and two sentence comments here are there from people are one thing, you, on the other hand, expect people to read page after page describing your opinions? Only the stupid consider these forks to be different form other alt coin releases, although apparently, most of the community is that dumb. It is pleasant to watch them run and scatter and act stupid in regards to them, and it is nice to profit from their mindless zombie-isms.

Good Evening CoinHoarder,

I've been trying to research Bitcoin Gold and found https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2240541.1260.  Is this the same Bitcoin Gold that you're talking about?  Did the choice to change from a GPU/Equihash Algo switch to a POS system based coin with a 95% Airdrop?  

Update:  Some further research turned up even more "Bitcoin Gold" coin references:  http://btcgpu.org/  and https://bitcoinexchangeguide.com/bitcoin-gpu/  as well as BitcoinG referenced here in this ANN post, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2240541.msg22707008#msg22707008.  BitcoinG, BTCGPU, and BTG, which is the real Bitcoin Gold that is set to come out October 25 or all they are the same thing?  If so then Bitcoin Gold is POS and on the waves platform?  It's all a bit confusing, please advise.


Thank you,
mimagneto

My problem is im not sure if i have saved that private key. I can't even remember seeing mine. What i am only sure of is the 12 word phrase. That was the one i stored. So now, i am quite worried if i will ever have access to the forked coin. Is there any way i can recover such key?
Again, thank you for the time reading my post.

If I buy Bitcoin and put it on a trezor will i be able to claim both bitcoins after the fork?

I disagree with your stance on BCH/Bitcoin Satoshi/Bitcoin Segwit.

Although what you espouse as being a fatal issue with Segwit may or may not be true (I do not know enough about the technical to comment on that, as I haven't put in the time to research). I am not arguing this point... let's assume that it is true.

I think that you are underestimating the power of "Social Consensus". The market, press, and users have all already determined that Bitcoin Segwit is Bitxoin, and there can only be one Bitcoin. All others (Bitcoin Satoshi, Bitcoin Cash, etc.) are alternative cryptocurrencies, as decided by Social Consensus.

After that Social Consensus has been reached, there is no turning back (or reverting back) to Bitcoin Satoshi or Bitcoin Cash. This remains true even if the fatal Segwit flaws rear their ugly head on the real Bitcoin (aka. Bitcoin Segwit... as determined by Social Consensus).

Old Bitcoin forks can not reestablish themselves as the real Bitcoin fork once they have established themselves as being alternative cryptocurrencies (due to Social Consensus) because of the economic realities of such. This is the source of my dissent with your stance... the economic realities of what would happen if the real Bitcoin (Bitcoin Segwit) operates for months to years, then it is all the sudden determined that... suprise, Bitcoin Cash or Bitcoin Satoshi is actually the real Bitcoin. The market, press, users, and miners (which, as a whole, constitute as Social Consensus) will never allow such a coupe because of the huge economic losses they will suffer from it should it occur.

If theft of coins due to fatal flaws in Segwit does occur, then I think a new fork will become the new real Bitcoin... not Bitcoin Cash and not Bitcoin Satoshi. Similar to how Ethereum and Ethereum Classic split. Segwit will be fixed/removed from the codebase and the chain rolled back to before the attacks, and then due to Social Consensus Bitcoin (Segwit then minus Segwit)  will become the real Bitcoin, and Bitcoin Segwit will become an alternative cryptocurrency. Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin Satoshi will remain alternative cryptocurrencies.

I recently wrote about Social Consensus, and how it's power is underestimated by decentralized/autonomous protocol idealists. At the end of the day, Social Consensus trumps all other types of consensus (PoW/PoS/etc.)

https://www.decentralized.tech/blogs/part-2-bitcoin-core-bitcoin-cash-bitcoin-gold-and-bitcoin-2x-oh-my


I can't argue with the above. I agree that it would likely constitute as fraud or theft.

great info sir! Thank you very much for the advice..

Another concern that i have is this wallet of freebitco.in. I think this is still related to the topic because they support forks. I have read that they will support the segwit 2x and not the BTG. Is this site safe? I am planning to use my freebitco.in wallet as payout address in genesis-mining.com. Will that be a good move? Any advice?

As long as the "forkers" include replay protection and does not claim that their fork is the "real" Bitcoin then I am ok with them forking away.

Another thing we should be against is when the top Bitcoin merchants and the largest miners come together to make an agreement expecting the community to follow them.