Title: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: da2ce7 on June 05, 2013, 03:12:15 AM Over in Open Transactions land, we are finding ourselves in need of a Logo.
So in true Bitcoin fashion, we are having a competition! Rules: Must have two versions: Greyscale and Colour (must look good in both). Must be in a Vector Graphics format. (optional) a banner version. This competition will be open for at-least 2 weeks, or until we have found a great logo. The prize pool is 2btc atm. People are welcome to donate more to: 1D9eWaBqawJH4KUb5frWpwZtzkuSZEMnG3 Happy drawing. Judges: markm, FellowTraveler, da2ce7 Edit: All Submissions must be under a http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ licence. (of course, we will still try and credit the artist where possible) Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 05, 2013, 05:52:15 AM Figured I would start in black and white and add color/stylized versions later. That way you can see the basic concept, and then be able to choose a style to mix and match whichever ones you like best.
I tried to emphasize an "O" and a "T" or "X" (for transaction) as much as possible while incorporating a symbol for network or exchange. https://i.imgur.com/IKTQNXe.png Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 05, 2013, 06:34:47 AM One more. This is my favorite so far.
https://i.imgur.com/8uhQNIU.png Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: r3wt on June 05, 2013, 07:19:30 AM Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: Rekees on June 05, 2013, 04:54:29 PM I posted this prior to the competition running -
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=214156.0 I'll be submitting more as those are just rough outlines of ideas I had for the logo, but any feedback on them welcome. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: r3wt on June 05, 2013, 10:07:52 PM that was just a rough draft. i don't have any vector creation software but i can do a professional logo in a very large size. will work on it sometime tonight
Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: da2ce7 on June 06, 2013, 12:29:09 AM that was just a rough draft. i don't have any vector creation software but i can do a professional logo in a very large size. will work on it sometime tonight Unfortunately, even large raster images will not be accepted for the bounty. We need clean SVG files, (or Illustrator). Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 06, 2013, 02:34:31 AM Here's an idea for colors/ a stylized version of the one logo.
https://i.imgur.com/udiLrg0.png And an idea for a banner. https://i.imgur.com/y6nGywu.png All of these logo variations could work together and be part of a complete design standard for OT. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 06, 2013, 02:39:16 AM Moltenmich - I have what I believe is a very good idea. I am going to see if I can use inkscape to do it (was not capable- it basically sucked) so I would be open to a 25%-75% (me-you) split if you are interested. I would be up for that. As long as it's fine that I still submit the logo designs I've already posted separately. (I still want to take the initial b/w designs and flesh them out) But yeah, feel free to PM me and let me know what you have in mind. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 06, 2013, 05:15:00 AM Here's one more for now.
(I'll also be working on one with uvwvj that will probably be finished sometime this weekend.) https://i.imgur.com/IUH6NMb.png https://i.imgur.com/NSgqJRo.png Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: da2ce7 on June 06, 2013, 05:50:26 AM @moltenmich, great work so far
Not to pre-judge, however I love this one: https://i.imgur.com/6PvmmjQ.png Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: SomeoneWeird on June 06, 2013, 05:58:04 AM +1 Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on June 06, 2013, 06:07:51 AM So far my favorite is the last one in this image. (The blue.) Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: patricktim on June 06, 2013, 10:58:47 AM Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: torba on June 06, 2013, 08:38:47 PM https://i.imgur.com/jbCeNY2.png
(I'm a sucker for minimalist logos) Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: tom1 on June 06, 2013, 09:05:23 PM Here's one more for now. I really like the first one ;)(I'll also be working on one with uvwvj that will probably be finished sometime this weekend.) https://i.imgur.com/IUH6NMb.png Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 06, 2013, 09:18:03 PM Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: Factory on June 06, 2013, 10:05:50 PM Color and greyscale logo:
http://i43.tinypic.com/ftf037.jpg 600x80 Banner: http://i44.tinypic.com/148rk1.jpg 600x300 Tall Banner: http://i41.tinypic.com/6ep2sn.jpg All images are hq jpegs for display purposes. Originally developed in Adobe Illustrator. Original files will be provided if selected. Address: 15zMCFWxmuoQstTSYwxft5XMocGfwa2xV3 Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: lch on June 07, 2013, 12:15:33 AM Heres my entry:
Color: http://i43.tinypic.com/hvckk7.jpg Grayscale: http://i41.tinypic.com/5yc35v.jpg Note: These are jpeg exported from the svg Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: da2ce7 on June 13, 2013, 04:55:05 AM @moltenmich
The blue-globe one is winning so-far: https://i.imgur.com/udiLrg0.png If there is no new entry, we may close the competition early. PM me if you are still working on something. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 13, 2013, 07:33:56 PM I hope you guys choose that logo! (it's my favorite of the the ones I submitted)
But before you decide to close the contest I just want to make sure you guys see this. I promised uvwvj I would work with him on this concept. I was super busy this week so it took me longer than expected to get to it, but I wouldn't feel right if I didn't submit it! Here it is: https://i.imgur.com/tMT3rHu.png Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on June 13, 2013, 08:27:02 PM Can you take this one, remove the "O" and "T" from the doorway, and then replace the 'O' in "Open" with the globe logo? Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: r3wt on June 13, 2013, 08:34:59 PM Can you take this one, remove the "O" and "T" from the doorway, and then replace the 'O' in "Open" with the globe logo? i think that would look amazing. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on June 13, 2013, 09:16:00 PM Also can you make a version that is ONLY the globe? We will use that logo by itself as well, in certain places.
Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 13, 2013, 10:27:56 PM Also can you make a version that is ONLY the globe? We will use that logo by itself as well, in certain places. Yep, not a problem. I would also give you flat versions of the logo. (When I design logos I include a "visual assets package" with a ton of different versions/file types) I'll post here what I mean by that in a second. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 13, 2013, 11:13:52 PM Here's what I mean. All of these could be used as a set. The details change slightly, but the basic visual identity stays consistent and strong. And the logo is the same just with additional graphics/ colors. You would use the main globe logo most often, but depending on the media/message you might want to use something a little different. The door makes the logo a little busy imo, but could definitely come in handy for certain situations, so as long as the colors remain consistent, it can complement the rest of the design.
https://i.imgur.com/R4I263g.png Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: acorn on June 13, 2013, 11:29:01 PM http://m-ato.me/bitcoin/ot-br2.png
And mockup of logo on cardstock printed with spot uv. http://m-ato.me/bitcoin/opentx-spotuv.jpg Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on June 14, 2013, 02:25:45 AM Here's what I mean. All of these could be used as a set. The details change slightly, but the basic visual identity stays consistent and strong. And the logo is the same just with additional graphics/ colors. You would use the main globe logo most often, but depending on the media/message you might want to use something a little different. The door makes the logo a little busy imo, but could definitely come in handy for certain situations, so as long as the colors remain consistent, it can complement the rest of the design. https://i.imgur.com/R4I263g.png Can you also make a version WITH the door, and WITHOUT the globe? (And without the 'O' and 'T' in the door.) (That way it won't be so busy... The door is cool.) Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on June 14, 2013, 02:28:50 AM http://m-ato.me/bitcoin/ot-br2.png And mockup of logo on cardstock printed with spot uv. http://m-ato.me/bitcoin/opentx-spotuv.jpg This looks really great. I don't really like the colored ones, but the cardstock / spot uv looks amazing. Perhaps make a logo that looks more like the cardstock version? Also, can you make versions with TXS instead of TX in the upper corner? (Our command line tool is 'opentxs') I'd like to have the option of using it either way. I think I still have like .9 BTC laying around, so even though we're probably going with the other logo, I might still buy this one from you, if you are amenable to the price. It's just really cool. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 14, 2013, 04:41:39 AM Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 14, 2013, 04:43:31 AM (btw those drop shadows look a little pixelated because i put in a custom zoom magnifier in adobe illustrator and just took a snapshot of all the designs. When they are saved as vector files they don't pixelate)
Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 16, 2013, 06:15:46 AM http://m-ato.me/bitcoin/ot-br2.png And mockup of logo on cardstock printed with spot uv. http://m-ato.me/bitcoin/opentx-spotuv.jpg This looks really great. I don't really like the colored ones, but the cardstock / spot uv looks amazing. Perhaps make a logo that looks more like the cardstock version? Also, can you make versions with TXS instead of TX in the upper corner? (Our command line tool is 'opentxs') I'd like to have the option of using it either way. I think I still have like .9 BTC laying around, so even though we're probably going with the other logo, I might still buy this one from you, if you are amenable to the price. It's just really cool. And if he rotated the 'O' through 180 degrees so that the the three sector dividers formed a slopey 'T' instead of upside down ... ? I like the silver embossed card look for the open^(txs) Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on June 16, 2013, 06:31:26 AM Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on June 16, 2013, 06:39:32 AM I actually like the one from acorn, but I don't like his color version
I would mix them I think I would use the globe from moltenmich, but with the font from acorn, and the tx from acorn, but the colors from moltenmich I think that'd be ideal. Sometimes I could see wanting it to say "transactions" at the bottom, maybe for half of the images. But much of the time the "tx" up in the corner is going to be better. I agree with marcus, about what he said about acorn rotating the 'O' BTW I'm not good with artistic stuff, so even if I am saying something, it might actually look like shit once you draw it. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 17, 2013, 12:45:51 AM I actually like the one from acorn, but I don't like his color version I would mix them I think I would use the globe from moltenmich, but with the font from acorn, and the tx from acorn, but the colors from moltenmich I think that'd be ideal. Sometimes I could see wanting it to say "transactions" at the bottom, maybe for half of the images. But much of the time the "tx" up in the corner is going to be better. I agree with marcus, about what he said about acorn rotating the 'O' BTW I'm not good with artistic stuff, so even if I am saying something, it might actually look like shit once you draw it. So I figured I'd try your suggestions combining the two. Obviously, if these ideas are chosen I would assume acorn and I would receive 50/50. https://i.imgur.com/8jRWela.jpg Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 17, 2013, 12:55:30 AM also, i don't want to actually throw any more submissions in since it looks like you've got a good idea of what you guys want, but I was playing around and came up with this.
https://i.imgur.com/8834b4M.jpg Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 17, 2013, 04:32:42 AM Here are two more files. One is the world logo in a large png, the other is the same mockup but with the logo I think you're leaning towards.
As you probably can tell, I'm very excited about this project lol. https://i.imgur.com/Z240RIy.png https://i.imgur.com/jb1XUbT.png Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: bitcoinchecker on June 17, 2013, 03:42:55 PM I haven't got any design to submit.
I just wanted to say well done to all those that have contributed. Some great stuff there and I've enjoyed "judging" them myself. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 17, 2013, 11:03:41 PM <============================= 8) Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 18, 2013, 01:54:04 AM Here are two more files. One is the world logo in a large png, the other is the same mockup but with the logo I think you're leaning towards. As you probably can tell, I'm very excited about this project lol. https://i.imgur.com/jb1XUbT.png I like this first logo v. much ... any chance we could get to see the above embossed one with the same background and "OPEN" but a superscript 'txs' instead of the "transactions" underlining? Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 18, 2013, 04:09:19 AM hows this?
https://i.imgur.com/9sI14DN.jpg Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 18, 2013, 04:10:34 AM awesome .... superscript "txs" ? you forgot the 's'? or is not graphically aesthetic?
Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 18, 2013, 04:20:31 AM https://i.imgur.com/fBHt34N.jpg
I totally just misread your post the first time! Sorry :/ it's not too bad actually! a little more crowded, but not a deal breaker imo. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 18, 2013, 04:30:03 AM sold!
NB: it is a little more 'busy' in top right ... but isn't that one of those naturally discounted areas on the page so the little bit o' business draws the eye to it? ... or else 'tx' might not be consciously noted. W/E i like it. Edit: ooohhh , just set as desktop background and got a warm fuzzy feeling. :D Edit2: wife just gave drive-by comment that she didn't read the 't' (on a laptop background sized image) on first glance ... had to do a double-take, stronger cross-bar for the t? totally up to you (she didn't have contacts in either :)) Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on June 18, 2013, 05:25:33 AM Edit2: wife just gave drive-by comment that she didn't read the 't' (on a laptop background sized image) on first glance ... had to do a double-take, stronger cross-bar for the t? totally up to you (she didn't have contacts in either :)) The 't' is fine, it's just the angle + camera focus. See the earlier ones on page 2. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 18, 2013, 05:37:53 AM Edit2: wife just gave drive-by comment that she didn't read the 't' (on a laptop background sized image) on first glance ... had to do a double-take, stronger cross-bar for the t? totally up to you (she didn't have contacts in either :)) The 't' is fine, it's just the angle + camera focus. See the earlier ones on page 2. good point ... perpendicular on looks fine. Thinking of rotating perspectives, wonder if anyone wants to do an animated gif with the big O-globe rotating about it's axis of symmetry ... 'made round to go round' and all that ;D Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 18, 2013, 09:48:04 PM Thinking of rotating perspectives, wonder if anyone wants to do an animated gif with the big O-globe rotating about it's axis of symmetry ... 'made round to go round' and all that ;D I could probably make an animation later this week if the logo won! Here's the updated guys. https://i.imgur.com/9lKUCoF.png Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: acorn on June 18, 2013, 11:54:34 PM http://m-ato.me/bitcoin/ot-br2.png And mockup of logo on cardstock printed with spot uv. http://m-ato.me/bitcoin/opentx-spotuv.jpg This looks really great. I don't really like the colored ones, but the cardstock / spot uv looks amazing. Perhaps make a logo that looks more like the cardstock version? Also, can you make versions with TXS instead of TX in the upper corner? (Our command line tool is 'opentxs') I'd like to have the option of using it either way. I think I still have like .9 BTC laying around, so even though we're probably going with the other logo, I might still buy this one from you, if you are amenable to the price. It's just really cool. I think you may have already decided, but if not, here's what you asked for (albeit with a slightly different blue that I'm more fond of). http://m-ato.me/bitcoin/otxs2.png The "txs" in my version uses the s from the original font I used. Use this if you like. Tips appreciated if you like it. I can provide the logos in whichever raster or vector format you need. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fishy on June 19, 2013, 04:41:28 PM I've been looking at these logos and I decided to submit one myself!
It's a black and white rough draft so please don't judge to harshly! I will be adding texture and color soon. (Maybe a globe background, etc.) If you liked it, please donate to: 1LYjWrQZfQsjiPZBy3LCWhvHvxG2Lbr3Ew Support hungry designers! https://i.imgur.com/9nkqabU.png Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: likehiro on June 20, 2013, 05:04:25 AM Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 20, 2013, 05:14:13 AM I've been looking at these logos and I decided to submit one myself! It's a black and white rough draft so please don't judge to harshly! I will be adding texture and color soon. (Maybe a globe background, etc.) If you liked it, please donate to: 1LYjWrQZfQsjiPZBy3LCWhvHvxG2Lbr3Ew Support hungry designers! https://i.imgur.com/9nkqabU.png lol that looks.... familiar Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: acorn on June 20, 2013, 10:29:01 PM Here some brainstorming from mine :D Hope you like them! http://i41.tinypic.com/2m4wv38.jpg I love your birdcage concept. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: likehiro on June 20, 2013, 11:22:07 PM Here some brainstorming from mine :D Hope you like them! http://i41.tinypic.com/2m4wv38.jpg I love your birdcage concept. Thanks for your reply :) In that sketch I wanted to show that a tool like Open Transactions is a good way to go out of the conventional system (jail) for the common people (bird). It's simple but has a hard concept behind. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: da2ce7 on June 22, 2013, 12:41:38 PM So who are the winners??? :o
I need some addresses to post the BTC to!!! Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 22, 2013, 06:08:25 PM Thinking of rotating perspectives, wonder if anyone wants to do an animated gif with the big O-globe rotating about it's axis of symmetry ... 'made round to go round' and all that ;D I couldn't help myself. I'm not that great with 3d motion (I've used blender a little but not enough to make exactly what I wanted) So I commissioned grums to make a 3d gif for me! Here is his fantastic work! http://i40.tinypic.com/dbair.jpg http://oi43.tinypic.com/hs0qht.jpg (here is his services page too: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=192764.0 ) Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 22, 2013, 07:18:48 PM Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 22, 2013, 07:34:38 PM Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: da2ce7 on June 23, 2013, 04:49:38 AM wow... :) well I think that we have, moltenmich, who is way ahead of everyone else :) love your logo!
Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on June 24, 2013, 03:57:55 PM The winner I choose is acorn. I suggest that da2ce7's reward fund be awarded to acorn.
However, I am very impressed with moltenmich's work, and we want to use his symbol as well (the one you see rotating now in gifs.) So we want to also make him a winner. I will pitch in .6 BTC and also, there is another contributor or two so that we can get his reward up to the 2 BTC as well. His symbol is superb and I would like to stick it up in the upper-left corner of opentransactions.org I should also mention that bastardizing the work of these two artists into a single logo was my own idea, and I regret it now. Clearly the work of both artists was superior in its original form, and that is why I think it's best to just choose both of them. We will also add a line for artist credit to our wiki. To those artists chosen, please let us know what name / contact info / donation address you'd like us to credit in the wiki. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on June 24, 2013, 09:02:17 PM Thank you for your kind words. And congratulations to acorn. His logo is very strong, and I'll concede, much cleaner and more concise. It will work extremely well for Open Transactions.
I'm fine with my logos being used any way you wish, they are yours. However, as someone who's read waaaaay too many marketing books, I would argue you should only use acorn's chosen logo when promoting OT. Two logos will confuse the issue and weaken your brand identity. And if you want to make Acorn's logo into a 3D rotating design like the one I posted, you should ask grums. (he does very fast work) I appreciate any tips for the designs. My address is 1CghBdj6nZBzwfu26YsYG5coJregnD9WJY My name is Mich Palmer, and if you are willing to put contact info or a link, my website is http://www.michpalmer.com/. Thank you for the opportunity! Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: acorn on June 24, 2013, 09:07:32 PM Thank you very much for selecting my work. I will send a PM shortly with contact/credit info. Nods to Mich, your logo is also very rad!
Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: acorn on July 04, 2013, 08:29:04 PM It's been over a week and I still haven't heard from anyone. What's the haps?
Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: Wolf Rainer on July 04, 2013, 10:12:02 PM It's been over a week and I still haven't heard from anyone. What's the haps? You get scamed. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on July 05, 2013, 08:40:23 PM Nope, not a scam.
Notice our wiki: http://opentransactions.org -- we haven't started using any logos yet because we're waiting until the artists are paid. da2ce7 is responsible for 2 BTC, I am pitching in .6, and marcus is coming up with the other 1.4 Since the price of BTC has dropped, I will also pay some extra to the artists. (Anyone want to sell me some BTC for paypal?) Sorry about delay, I've been traveling for the past 2 weeks. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: da2ce7 on July 09, 2013, 05:17:43 AM @moltenmich
Sent 2btc d88007128db7a915c142dbc494b3c34c4f58cddcee12a04b6e0cb687fa0ee7c5 Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on July 09, 2013, 05:26:57 AM We'll get the rest to acorn shortly, next day or so. Sorry about delay.
Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: moltenmich on July 10, 2013, 02:41:22 AM @moltenmich Sent 2btc d88007128db7a915c142dbc494b3c34c4f58cddcee12a04b6e0cb687fa0ee7c5 Received. Thank you so much! Feel free to contact me any time. Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: fellowtraveler on July 10, 2013, 08:01:41 AM okay 2 BTC sent to acorn as well :-)
Please send all original art files to fellowtraveler at rayservers.net Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: acorn on July 10, 2013, 05:24:27 PM Files sent, and BTC received. Thank you!
Title: Re: Open Transactions Logo Competition! 2BTC Post by: marcus_of_augustus on July 10, 2013, 08:26:17 PM It's been over a week and I still haven't heard from anyone. What's the haps? You get scamed. Feeling stupid? Apologise please. |