Bitcoin Forum

Warning.

Given the opportunity, MtGox will steal your bitcoins.  Be careful when making a deposit to MtGox if you are going to do business with these thieves.

See thread here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213052.0

A user sent bitcoins to MtGox, but sent it to an address where MtGox had been previously been storing bitcoins that were sent to the user when they made an earlier withdrawl.

After multiple attempts to get these bitcoins that the user sent to MtGox credited to the proper account, MtGox has offered no useful assistance whatsoever.  Instead, MtGox continues to keep these bitcoins for themselves. Knowing who the bitcoins belong to, and keeping them for oneself would be a pretty good description of theft.

I apologize for the alarmist nature of this post, but clearly communicating with MtGox support is futile.  My hope is that this alarmist post will get the attention of someone who has direct access to a reasonably intelligent MtGox employee.  I'm open to other suggestions on how to communicate with MtGox.  If this post manages to provide access to a useful contact at MtGox I will remove the post.  If not I will bump it regularly until someone from MtGox can offer some assistance.

My experience is that MtGox support don't really understand how bitcoin (or much else for that matter) works, and are pretty dense to boot.

You just talk round in circles, and it feels just like someone is deliberately trying to misunderstand what you tell them.

Meanwhile Karpeles just laughs all the way to the bank.

well there's your first mistake, underestimating the staff of a company based in japan.

+1

Gox gox gox.... just use Bitstamp instead, where you will get soft-scammed only  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=225405.20)(which is completley acceptable with an average bitcoin monkey).

I'm surprised. All of my experience with MtGox has been positive, including communication with their support staff.

I liked Mt. Gox so far and had only positive experiences with them.

My account got verified two weeks ago. Now have a SEPA payment pending from last sunday. I used the designated "reference" field my banking site offers for the account number instead of the normal "purpose" field (or what it would be called). I am getting the feeling this is a nonstandard field?

As their sites state that a SEPA payment takes up to three business days, so on the fourth I wrote to the support.

First they asked me to send a scan of the transaction, despite doing what their desposit page states. After two days of no reply I had a live-chat with the support. They said the transaction arrived but wasn't linked to my account, which the lady I was chatting with would do right away. Another day passed and nothing happened again.

That propably was the last time I used Mt. Gox.

Did I misread or the alleged "victim" sent those BTC to the wrong address?

Alleged victim sent BTC to MtGox, but used a MtGox address that was not tied their account as a "Funding Address".  MTGox received the bitcoins but did not credit them to any account.  On explanation of why/how the bitcoins were sent to MtGox and an offer to provide proof of intended account with a signature from the address that previously received the bitcoins, MtGox chose to simply keep the bitcoins for themselves rather than credit the proper account.

I contacted MtGox on behalf of the alleged victim. I managed to communicate with someone who appeared to understand the situation.  I was informed that MtGox will not credit these bitcoins to any account.  They claim that the address is a "temporary address used only to send BTC's. It cannot be used for receiving them".  However, looking at blockchain.info, it is clear that MtGox has the private key to the address, because they swept the bitcoins out of the address 9 days after they were received there:
https://blockchain.info/tx/b0af1feaa0dd0a975366c0bfda3f359daf5087c532ad7d74f3766605fb5deb95

Only Mark Karpeles can resolve these issues when they come up. You need to somehow get escalated to him.

So, your title is wrong and misleading.

The alleged "victim" made a donation to Mtgox and now is crying for some bitcoins.



Mtgox is not a charity. They have all rights to keep those btc.
If I sent you some btc, that would be nice if you send it back to me after I contact you. But that's not compulsory.
And you keeping the btc, will not make you a thief. You did not steal anything, if I sent you the bitcoins in the first place.
You don't have to give it back to me if you don't want to.


Case solved.

We've heard this argument before on this forum, the result was that 80% of the forum is honest and has some integrity while others are happy to excuse away their dishonesty with "you should have known better than to trust me". Hell, I did exactly that as a prank last year. You're fighting a losing battle, mate.

80 % of the forum might have their integrity as long as they do not receive any valuable amount of bitcoins, which is likely to be lifetime ...
Does not change anything though.

If they are not a charity, then it was not a donation.


No, they really don't.


It would however be moral, and you'd be within your rights to publicly complain about my refusal to return them.


That's debatable.  You may feel confident in your convictions, but that doesn't make you right.

This is not MtGox's fault. It is clearly the user's.
Even I can claim that I sent those bitcoins. How can the user prove that they were his?
It an address where MtGox pays from, and not any of the user's deposit address, which the user conveniently left out till the end of the thread.

It is MtGox fault that they are refusing to return bitcoins that were accidentally sent to them.


Perhaps he can provide a message signed using the private key that is associated with the address: 1GwPaTHi6s3XkzaFQe7DwFJNXfmUTbRkiQ

Can you do that?


Not so much left out as not realized by the user initially (which is why the bitcoins were sent there in the first place).

Sorry, but that does not work for a "real world" registered company only for a shady private person (and even here it depends on the laws of the land).

ding ding ding!
In fact, if you compare it to real world currency...
At least in the quite a few parts of the US:

You write down the wrong address on an envelope and send me 500 dollars cash.  You have some way of proving this (say for argument you took video of the cash and putting it in the envelope and sealing it, showing the address, and following all the way until you dropped it in the mailbox at the post office)
You contact me and explain you sent the money incorrectly, and I admit and acknowledge that I did receive the money, but claim I can't get it out of the mailbox - that it's a send only mailbox and I can't receive with it, but then someone has proof that I took the money from that mailbox and deposited it in my account (again let's say for the sake of argument videotape)
You could sue me for that money and in quite a few courts you would win, end of story.  Just because someone sends you something accidentally does not give you the legal right to keep it in most jurisdictions.  Some are exceptions, and some have specific rules for businesses sending merchandise unsolicited that allow the receiver to keep (to prevent businesses from sending unsolicited merchandise and then billing the recipient, and demanding they pay to ship it back if they don't want it)

Gox does most definitely have a moral obligation to return those funds if the address is under their control and they've swept the funds out.
Gox may have a legal obligation as well depending on the various jurisdictions involved and how hard the user chooses to push the issue.

Regardless of any of that, this serves as a warning to most that they can't trust gox to 'do the right thing', but can only trust them to do what they absolutely must or are forced to.

If mtgox does not want to credit his mtgox account then they should simply send them back to the address they came from, problem solved.
It's hard to believe mtgox would do this to one of their clients while the proof is available.

While I agree that MtGox should return the bitcoins provided there is sufficient proof (e.g., a signature), calling them a thief is incorrect. Maybe "greedy" is more appropriate.

If they don't return, they are still not thieves (at least in this instance).

I guess it will be more administrative work on Mtgox side, it is due to the OP carelessness for "donating" the BTCs, just accept your mistakes and move on.