Bitcoin Forum

Updates
2013-07-03: KnC confirmed (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228525.msg2641552#msg2641552) that our order is at the front of the queue
2013-06-10: 24 Jupters ordered and paid (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228525.msg2433502#msg2433502)
2013-06-09: Phase one timed up, group buy failed; check here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228525.msg2423379#msg2423379) for further processing
2013-06-09: Price adaptation due to BTC/fiat exchange rate drop: 70 -> 80 BTC (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228525.msg2418950#msg2418950)
2013-06-08: Order will be changed for Device Hosting (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228525.msg2413246#msg2413246)

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Ok, I know I am late with this, but I needed first to get some confidence that KnC is serious.

About
I placed my order for 100 KnC mining devices with some unproductive coins in April the day before BTC reached ATH of $266 and plumped down to $50. With the current exchange rate and the modified product, I am obviously not going to buy all of those 100 units, but maybe 20 or so. Therefore I offer to everyone who believes in KnC's plans to participate in this group buy.

I checked that I am in fact still in the 1-500 group and entitled for the early products over their order page:


On top of the $713.5k I'll have to pay 10% Swiss VAT and custom handling fees to be paid to courier - so this group buy has a volume of ~$0.8M.

What
I am offering a participation in this group buy that guarantees to get your Jupiter from within the first 500 units shipped. If you already ordered yours or traded your place from some other early bird, this is not for you.

Also, this is not for you if you want to trade a position in the pre-order queue: the devices will be shipped to Switzerland first and then either forwarded to your address or kept ready for a local pickup.

If you are interested, you agree that my role in this process is limited to act as organizer and proxy. I am not in any way liable for failures of 3rd party - this is especially relevant when it comes to KnC and their ability to keep their promised performance and schedule. Do your due diligence, look at the past stories of ASIC products deployment and perform your own risk analysis.

If you decide to order, you agree with this and accept that my responsibility is limited to the bare proxy functionality, i.e. it starts with the devices being delivered to me and ends when they are picked up by the parcel service (or when you pick them up in person).

How
There are only three days left to complete the payment for the reserved units, and since this is an all-or-nothing order (see below: Why), I need to collect money fast and collect lots of it.

Blockchain based Accounting
I am going to use a blockchain based registration and payment scheme that proved itself when I collected the funds for Avalon ASIC chip distribution. It is based on two key factors:

• you vote / register with sending coins from an address you control to a common address
• you remain anonymous until the point where you want to claim what you paid for by signing with the address you paid from

In consequence, for participating in the following process, it is absolutely necessary that you a) send from an address you control and can sign with (no MtGox, pool address, etc.), and b) you don't delete the related address until this deal is finalized. If your wallet does not allow you to specify from which address to send, you need to be able to sign at least with one of the inputs.

The great deal with this process is that there is no need for additional accounting - the blockchain is our indisputable process log. Note: when it comes to payment ordering (who paid first), the order is given by the block the payment was first confirmed.

Step one: Gather Interest
Before I start collecting coins, I need to check if there is enough interest for the full order (I am not going to do a partial buy). For this step, for the number of Jupiters you want to buy, you send 1 BTC to the common address 1EqJmgTZkiA5u7FaJmbiK9otznpx3G5Qha (https://blockchain.info/address/1EqJmgTZkiA5u7FaJmbiK9otznpx3G5Qha) (i.e. if you want to buy 3, you send 3 BTC there). The first 20 coins represent the 20 Jupiters I am going to order for myself.

I will let this reservation window open until 2013-06-09T18:00Z (this Sunday, 18:00 GMT). If the address reaches a balance of at least 100 coins, I'll start with the funding phase (see below). You do not need to ask if there are devices left - just check the address balance and you know. Also, I will refund all over-payments, so you might want to show your interest even if there are already 100+ registered - in case someone changes his mind you might get in line.

Please note: the coins paid in this phase are

• fully refunded if you overpaid (i.e. didn't make it into the 100 first to get a device)
• fully refunded if we do not collect enough to buy it in full
• not refunded if you change your mind after registration and would be entitled to buy the device(s)

The last point is to prevent people from fake registering and preventing serious takers from joining. Also, it obviously causes quite some work at my side if done with malicious intent.

Step two: Collect Funding
In case there are enough adventurous followers joining, I will start collecting the funds for the order. The process will be the same as for the registration phase above, only the address will change to 1EW13ao9f6nFh51NrdKjLH1DTCgBbcFKH9 (https://blockchain.info/address/1EW13ao9f6nFh51NrdKjLH1DTCgBbcFKH9). Based on the current BTC rate, I will collect 70 BTC for each Jupiter. Again, the first 1400 coins in this address are for my own 20 devices.

The payment window for the final funds will be open for 24h. If your registration was serious before, you should already be prepared to have them ready for transfer from the same address you send your registration coins from by then. I will need to pay the order on Monday, so those who did not pay by then will be replaced by the moving up ones.

Please note: since the prices are denominated in fiat but paid in BTC, there will be an adjustment of the final price to be paid based on exchange rate. That is, if the BTC/fiat exchange rate rises until payment, you will get something back, if it drops, you will need to add some more. In any case, you will pay the exact same price that I will be charged for.

In this phase, coins are

• not refundable once the payment was made
• fully refunded if we do not collect enough for the full order
• fully refunded if KnC refuses the order for any reason

After Sales
Please note that once the devices are ordered and you registered your shipping address, it can not be changed after. This is important to keep in mind, because nearly everywhere people start to trade ordered mining rig long before they got it delivered. I will not be able to support this, so those who want to trade need to organize it privately.

When
Registration window opens effective immediately and closes 2013-06-09T18:00Z.

Funding window opens as soon as there are interests for 100 devices, but no later than 2013-06-09T18:00Z. If the threshold is not reached, the order will not be placed and all funds are returned to sender.

Why
As you noticed, I am not asking for any premium, commissions or other charges - you basically will pay the exact same amount that you would pay if you place yourself a 1-500 order. I am doing this because I am generally a nice guy ;), but my main motivation is a promised discount given by KnC personally if I buy all the 100 devices.

That is why this is an all-or-nothing deal. And this is also why I reserve the right to abandon the group buy in case KnC refuses to keep their promise. You for sure can imagine that handling this amount of orders is a PITA workload to do, and you for sure understand why I can't do this for free.

Who
Whom are you going to send millions for a naked promise? Well, I won't keep the coins for long and move them to KnC. As initially stated, it is solely your decision to trust this company, but if you are still reading, you maybe made up your mind. Then of course there is a risk of me taking all 100 Jupiters and run with them. While there are various logistical problems for the practical implementation with that, I reached some level in the Bitcoin world that allows me make a better living the regular way than with anything I could potentially pull out of this stunt.

You can check some of my references from my forum signature, here are some I want to link directly:

• sold 5000 ASICMINER shares some months ago (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=142038.0)
• have an ASICMINER board seat
• have organized the Avalon ASIC chip distribution (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177827.0) for DIY folks, proxied 5k+ coins to Avalon
• supplying Europe with BTC (check my LocalBitcoins (https://localbitcoins.com/p/zefir) profile)

Communication
I live in Switzerland and check forum and mail at least twice a day. Please be patient if you do not get your request responded immediately, most probably it is because you are living in the wrong time-zone :) or I got some RL things to do.



That's all. Good Luck.
zefir

Well this looks fun - a 100 unit order.

I assume we would pay shipping after you receive the units?

Would you foresee any problems shipping to the US?

I have been sitting on the fence about KNC, but this seems like a good deal.

I'll send 1 btc over once I get it from my exchange.

EDIT:
At current rates 1 jupiter would be 64 btc - can you list what all the 70 btc covers exactly?


EDIT 2:

Address 13vEmRoo8beAfdLc9ELw8GGAH3WTYgoEg4
TX 3168a43ef4f41aab893a5c66ba7a0b1aad79b9354cde8b3e1e40e8aefaf5c457 (https://blockchain.info/tx/3168a43ef4f41aab893a5c66ba7a0b1aad79b9354cde8b3e1e40e8aefaf5c457)

Generally, shipping will be handled the way buyer wants, i.e. he decides the courier of choice, insurance, economy / express, etc. Obviously problems with shipping are outside of my control, i.e. if someone asks his device to be shipped to Syria, I won't refuse but also won't take responsibility.

As for the price: exchange rate got a little bit volatile recently, so risk is high it to be lower on Monday. But as described, you are going to pay exactly what I am charged for (BitPay total / 100 per unit). The delta is returned to sender.

i'm way too poor for this proposition.  Good luck raising funds!

How the...?! You have a hundred unit preorder in the first 500 orders??

a $10k+ shipping cost  ;D

I agree plasmoske.  Though, if I had disposable income and wanted to take some risk, I'd love to buy a couple of these.  I hope everyone is careful, and checks all the details before they buy, though.

As written in OP, when KnC first announced, their products were priced somewhere at $3k. with a exchange rate of $200+, 100 units totaled at 1.5k BTC - thats the amount I am still putting at risk.



The 3 unit limit was not there when I pre-ordered. It might have been introduced lately, but from the order system I am able to checkout all 100 (see screenshot in OP).

Yes, this is risky. I guess KnC collected already several millions, and it will be a sad day for the community if they fail - which is btw the case for all other ASIC manufacturers.

Is there any sort of discount for those wanting KnC to host it?

What about making a group buy for 5-10 Jupiters with hosting at KNC (or at your place) and dividing each device to 5-10 shares? I think many members would be interested. I know there many group buys like this but not every OP of these is as trustworthy as you :)

Would you be willing to provide the option of KnC hosting the device? That seems to be a deciding factor for some.

There is not much information about hosting so far, but since KnC offers to change your mind and ship devices you initially ordered for hosting, I am fine with this.

Update: Device Hosting
Since several users approached me with their preference for hosting instead of shipping Jupiter units, and since KnC allows devices ordered for hosting to be changed to ship afterwards, if we make it to order I will do with all devices ordered for hosting and change it to shipping in a later step.

+2

https://blockchain.info/de/tx/2e48ac8ac6118ab3e186f5a3e925b75ece95fba45591a3e281dbe9184cfbb718
https://blockchain.info/de/tx/a2f99c3655905df26cbbc2b91bd010def81b24f5754ab367b20a69713551d4a0

should this go through, I would work towards changing my two existing Saturn orders into these two here.

Hi,

In my group buy, I am hosting it in southern california at a datacenter.  Please check the group buy for more info.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228700.new#new

Thanks

wow.

+1

TxID: https://blockchain.info/tx/966f38ee15e7c9bbba55d7b6f7ff3c9e9ce4a1c117d5ea3585b04ccf13033013

Zefir can you specify your pre-order number for this devices? or at least what range it was?

Hm, I'm still unclear if there was an order number at all and if it is of any relevance for the real ordering now.

Anyhow, all I got when I pre-ordered was an email including this lines

Is this what you are asking for?

Does that mean its either "all 100 are shipped" or "all 100 are hosted"?
Or, hopefully, you may tell them to host 47 and have the 53 others shipped to you?

And, just so that I don't miss anything in the hundreds of other pages:
- the first 500 orders (or ordered devices?) may pay the full sum now to be the first ones delivered
- after the first 500 it's first-pay-first-receive
- they want to have shipped by the end of september


Ente

The exact ToS for hosting are not yet finalized, the most recent information is from https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-12

I expect and will let KnC confirm that it will be possible to leave some devices hosted and ship the others on demand.

After all, they are interested to get funding for their chips, there is no reasonable incentive to refuse giving us such a choice.

This would impose two additional advantages

• the shipping costs do not need to be paid upfront
• we might reach an agreement to send those units to buyers who want to have them at home directly, instead of proxying them over Switzerland

If this group buy reaches the required threshold by tomorrow (which right now does not look like), I will clarify these open points before I start collecting the final funds.

---

EDIT: forgot to address the other points

As for

This group buy assumes and makes only sense if the pre-orders are kept in front of the queue (which is what KnC approved several times). If it turned out do be handled differently, I will not order and funds are returned to sender.

vote: don't make it all/nothing.

would be nice if you could just buy these the ones that get bought and drop the rest.
i already have two of the smaller machines ordered, would get a refund for those then and pay you.

Since you'll be offering the hosting option, and you don't believe you'll sell all the units available, you should consider selling shares of the units. There's a lot of people who simply can't participate in these group buys due to not having the funds.

For example, you want 71 BTC for each device, so 1/100 shares would cost 0.71 for BTC for 1.2 Gh/s, which a lot more people could afford. If you really want to reach the masses, you could sell 1/1000 shares for 0.071 BTC for 120 Mh/s.

Personally, I'd go with something like shares representing 1/1200 costing 0.071 BTC for 100 Mh/s with you keeping 200 shares as a management fee.

I think you'd sell a few more machines with such an offer on the table.

This is something I will need to think about when I know the final numbers. The whole idea of making it all-or-nothing is to get my effort compensated from KnC and not from the community. I openly dislike the trades of pre-orders people got basically for free and am not going to seek profit from this.

Therefore one potential outcome of this group buy (in the case of insufficient funding) might be to give the pre-order-position for free to those who committed support. Essentially it means, if you have sent coins to register, you will get your 1-500 Jupiter anyway: either through this group buy or via a free position in the pre-order queue.
(Should have titled this thread 'KnC Jupiter pre-orders for free', maybe ;))

There are some folks going this approach and people who do not want to risk that much have already enough choices.

From operating a publicly traded mining bond in the past I know that this is a full-time-job that is a perfect challenge to learn a lot about Bitcoin if you don't have a day job. I do have one, and this is nothing I could do well enough in my limited spare time.

Sadly time is short, otherwise I would not mind if someone else organized such contracts with units bought from this group buy.

Did that here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=229614.0)

so I guess the big discount you will pocket is worth all the trouble of shipping out 80 jupiters? (or not, and just let KnC host)

if you get 20% off that means you get 20 free jupiters

nice angle if you can pull it off, not much time though

Intrigued.  Pm'ed, and would be in for 1 or 2 depending on when full payment for the devices would be required after your deadline.  Thank you.

-JC

We are talking more about 5% here than about 20 - which still is enough to cover re-shipping costs and leave one fee Jupiter for me.

But you're right, time is short and demand dried up, so most probably those registered will get a free 1-500 slot from me and order themselves.

Update: Price Adaptation

With the recent exchange rate drop of BTC of over 20% over the past 2 days and the price for Jupiter denominated in fiat, the supposed equivalent of 70 BTC per unit will not suffice, it will more likely be around 80.

Those who already joined or consider doing so, please ensure you have the additional coins liquid when they are due (which is tomorrow Monday, exact deadline needs to be provided by KnC).

+1

This seems like a good 'learning moment' in many regards.
I know you are steamed right now, but overall many need to open their eyes here


When you were chasing ~5% gain on an all or nothing bet (if you hedged, you would of already bought your 20 jupiters, and then placed the rest IF you could swing the 100 from others)

Now btc price tanks and you lose way more on this than gaining 5%.


'How could we have known' ?


You made public an OBSCENE transaction that by definition will have to liquidate btc very soon (kncminer HAS to convert once they get from you shortly - there is a reason for darkpools in stock exhanges)

Anyone sitting on a pile of btc that saw your post would NEED to sell before kncminer tries to.. and then there was also more notice of Avalon BTC funds still sitting and not exchanged into chips either...

so this quickly switched the market from fun casino to a run before the bust..

there are just too many big piles of btc doubling down into next wave of miners that HAVE to exchange to real world chip facilities.  A ponzi we will mimic

I feel people in your stature need to position yourself into wealth protection which means cementing an ecology for btc.  Not easy at all but without it all your wealth will turn to dust.

I'm a small player that only keeps 10 btc on hand and trade with anything over that.  So I was sitting on 10 the last few days and when I saw your post and Yufi's I knew that I needed to keep some powder dry soon..  and here we are.

due to current exchange rate drop, any chance of accepting fiat currency (Paypal & Wire Transfer) instead of BTC?

+1 for me

I fail to get your point.

If you argue that this group buy had any impact on the current exchange rate collapse, then you clearly overestimate it. So far, there is interest for only 7 devices, one buyer already stepped back. That's what, 500 BTC? You seriously think that this has some relevance? By your logic, Avalon was responsible for some recent crashes after announcing their sales and with that indicated some coin movements. You won't get much support for your claim to not use BTC as what it is meant for - namely as currency.

As for the remainder of your post, what exactly is your critique?

I spent most of the past 5 years on financial blogs and you find out that what people may do is more of an activator to others than what they eventually do.

Frontrunning means cashing out some chips before the next guy in basically a prisoner's dilemma situation.  If trader A knows that trader B and C all can get the same info they just got, panic sets in and even though it would be better for all three traders to work together and not panic, there is no trust or guarantee so one usually does what's best for themselves immediately

It might not be tomorrow or next week but the clock is ticking for kncminer & whoever is controlling avalon's chip funds to move that btc into production.
I was just pointing out your move since it was even more public than most when people see those types of numbers and a short deadline.

Fear, animal spirits, fight or flight, you name it..  and this is mostly a oneway market which is why I brought up the marketplace.   It may be best for someone like you to raise the value of what you already got instead of doubling down to just chase more coins with no real stability in its price.

This smells like fail - for somebody NOT ME. GL with it!

Ok, with your experience you then are playing in a different league than I do. I am not a trader and just enjoy using BTC as currency for its superior properties. If you are saying money transfer into and out of BTC in the volumes we are discussing here should be hidden from public, I fear there is something seriously conceptually wrong and I should start selling all my coins.

Status update?

Update: Phase one closed, Group Buy failed
As already expected before, the first time window closed and this group buy failed. Please do not send any more coins to 1EqJmgTZkiA5u7FaJmbiK9otznpx3G5Qha

With interest for only 7 devices, the demand was lower than expected.

What now?
I got a response from KnC clarifying the following topics

• Pre-order closing time is 2013-06-10T22:00Z (or tomorrow Monday, midnight CET)
• ordering initially for hosting and then shipping devices to different addresses is ok

Two potential approaches to finalize the deal for those who are still interested to buy their Jupiter:

• we proceed with the process as planned, i.e. you send 80 BTC per device to order to 1EW13ao9f6nFh51NrdKjLH1DTCgBbcFKH9 within the next 24h; I'll order tomorrow with devices designated for hosting and whoever wants his device shipped to him directly will have to pay shipping + VAT; after payment I will return the overpaid coins (80 - final price) to sender
• you just get the position in pre-order queue from me and organize everything by yourself (I'd need to understand the process that is accepted by KnC for this transfer, if you know more, please let me know)

All who sent coins to 1EqJmgTZkiA5u7FaJmbiK9otznpx3G5Qha, please PM me and tell me what you prefer. I will send the coins in this address back to sender when this deal is finalized.


Thanks.

Thankfully BTC has a lot of good things going for it and I use it as a currency as much as I can.

What does need to happen sooner rather than later (besides a growning marketplace) is more and more exchanges need to pop up and create easier ways to move money between them.  That will be the best safety net as many traders will be able to grab arbitrage quickly which will prevent liquidity sell offs from doing major damage

You have to think of it this way... in a stock market, if someone does a slam job on a stock, someone else could move quickly and sell some of their other stocks and buy up the sell off.   There really is no protection like that on our small exchanges.  BTC is our one stock since it is such a one-way trade.  Just like you can't really buy too much with IBM stock until you convert it to cash unless you find someone to take it.

Is the answer margin accounts?  I think Kraken is talking about allowing them. That could be a godsend or pure trouble.

Back to the main point:  when you hear the big dogs on the financial world talk about what they are doing, they are always pretty vauge on what they are doing and most probably lying and doing the opposite.

You're definitely a big fish in this pond so I figured I'd point out what the sharks usually do..



 

Update: 24 Jupiters ordered

I placed the order for 24 Jupiter units (order #1922) and finalized the payment via BitPay (txid (https://blockchain.info/tx/de6571d0689a949e9a65399d69569d927ec525aff2eea3a81129f8354fb9e71c)):

https://i.imgur.com/BobBy6W.png


Clearing Overpayment
I paid 1636 BTC in total, that is 68.17 BTC per device.

The overpayment of 11.83 BTC has been returned (txid (https://blockchain.info/tx/105fcbd0230656f09e6143544ba50febbe84019ee81fd2e71b53997f60512ccf)) to the 4 addresses where 80 BTC were sent from.

Those 6 BTC I received for registration has been sent back to sender (txid (https://blockchain.info/tx/0316f608dba56864d5267f5f599366d07850c66c382101ccc5d6769f9b4be508)).

With that, we should be clean.


Further Processing
For now, let us pray and hope that KnC's planning is more accurate than what we have seen so far from other manufacturers.

Whenever there are news, I will post in this thread, so buyers should add it to their watch list.

The Jupiters are ordered for hosting in Sweden, that's why I did not pay VAT and shipping. When time has come and you want your unit shipped, we will have to arrange this with KnC later (you will have to pay VAT and shipping).


That's all for now.


PS: I was expecting a higher demand and ended up doing lots of work for nothing. If you feel that I did it right, please consider rating me, being it over at bitcoin-OTC or in the local forum ratings. Thanks.

Hi,

got an email from KnC that had some info on how to track your # in the queue etc.
my own order was removed from their system, so it seems, did an extra machine get added in your order in exchange, as agreed upon with KnC?

I'd be happy if you could check and give me a quick shout so I can contact KnC just in case.

PM'd.

Regarding my conversion and exchange:

Update: Preliminary order queue position

The order tracking function at KnC's homepage says

Whenever they start production, our Jupiters are among the first to hash :)

Cheers

nice one!
can you see my additional jupi in your account?

Nope, still 24 units and the final price paid ($167,880.00). Maybe the do list only what was paid with this order and keep your payment in your original one to not mess up accounting.

The comment field stating that your order #1315 should be added is still there. If a screenshot would make you feel more confident, please contact me vie email.

Please don't bother, just wanted to see if they changed anything on the front-end.
I already got refunded for the surplus payment and the shipping, so we should be good.
I'll ask them to maybe add it visibly to your account.