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Title: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 03:11:41 AM *** EDIT: THIS AUCTION IS CLOSED NOW. See end of thread ***
I own one ebay share in my portfolio. As an experiment, I sell it for bitcoins. What this means, is that I hereby promess (yes, you have to trust me), that if at any time I receive some dividends from eBay, I will convert them into bitcoins, and transfer it to you. I'll make a short auction for this. No starting price. Auction will end at block 98,000 Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2010, 03:14:58 AM So we only get a dividend we dont actually get ownership of the share?
What is the usual dividend you get and how often do they pay it ? Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 03:20:41 AM So we only get a dividend we dont actually get ownership of the share? What is the usual dividend you get and how often do they pay it ? I can't unfortunately "give" you the share. Too much fees would be included for transfering it. Basically owning a share means you have a vote right (but who cares about that for such a small quantity of shares ?) and the right to get the dividend. I can promess I'll transfer the dividend. All I can do to convince you that it is the same as owning the share, is to engage my reputation. Basically I do pretty much what my bank is doing for me : they own the share and they engage their reputation when they promess they'll pay me the dividend. As for eBay's dividend policy is concerned, they have NEVER paid any dividend, but they might do in the future. It's up to you to beleive in that or not. I don't. That's why I sell the share. Notice that if you buy the share to me, you will be able to sell it to someone else later. Basically all you'll have to do is to give me a new bitcoin address. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: nanotube on December 15, 2010, 04:54:38 AM so essentially... once someone buys the share from you, he'd have to trust you /in perpetuity/ to keep delivering any possible future dividends. and trust you not to get hit by a truck at some point, or if you do, to trust you to put it in your will that "this ebay share belongs to some guy" when they distribute your assets after your demise?
not sure i like that proposition. :) Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 05:08:55 AM so essentially... once someone buys the share from you, he'd have to trust you /in perpetuity/ to keep delivering any possible future dividends. and trust you not to get hit by a truck at some point, or if you do, to trust you to put it in your will that "this ebay share belongs to some guy" when they distribute your assets after your demise? not sure i like that proposition. :) Again, this is essentially what any broker do. Also, nothing prevents you from pricing this risk and thus to give a low bid, considering that I might be a thief or die next year. An eBay share that I sell certainly worths less than an eBay share sold by an official broker. But it doesn't worth 0BTC. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: nanotube on December 15, 2010, 05:14:40 AM so essentially... once someone buys the share from you, he'd have to trust you /in perpetuity/ to keep delivering any possible future dividends. and trust you not to get hit by a truck at some point, or if you do, to trust you to put it in your will that "this ebay share belongs to some guy" when they distribute your assets after your demise? not sure i like that proposition. :) Again, this is essentially what any broker do. well, no... brokers have official account books... if a broker dies, you don't have to worry about getting your shares. (not to mention that a brokerage firm is usually not a single guy, and further to mention that these firms have insurance against various losses that may happen). Quote Also, nothing prevents you from pricing this risk and thus to give a low bid, considering that I might be a thief or die next year. An eBay share that I sell certainly worths less than an eBay share sold by an official broker. But it doesn't worth 0BTC. yes, of course. i was just pointing out the risks to potential bidders. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: FreeMoney on December 15, 2010, 09:21:31 AM so essentially... once someone buys the share from you, he'd have to trust you /in perpetuity/ to keep delivering any possible future dividends. and trust you not to get hit by a truck at some point, or if you do, to trust you to put it in your will that "this ebay share belongs to some guy" when they distribute your assets after your demise? not sure i like that proposition. :) This is a good point. As offered we're essentially speculating more on your trustworthiness and health. So... how old are you? Are there any heart problems in your genetic history? Maybe make it a year or three? At least this prevents us having to mostly guess on how long the arrangement will last than on the company itself. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 09:41:35 AM This is a good point. As offered we're essentially speculating more on your trustworthiness and health. So... how old are you? Are there any heart problems in your genetic history? Maybe make it a year or three? At least this prevents us having to mostly guess on how long the arrangement will last than on the company itself. Well, it's not as if you were investing thounsands of dollars, anyway. We're talking about ONE share of ebay, which is about 20$ I think. Hang on, let me check : :r!yahooquote EBAY EBAY eBay Inc. 30.75 12/14/2010 NasdaqNM Ok... $30.75 is a little more than I thought. Still, it's not exactly a huge amount. So I hope you will agree with me that it's too a small amount to speculate on someone's death ! I'm not in killer shape but I'm ok and I'm pretty sure I will survive at least a few decades more. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: mpkomara on December 15, 2010, 09:43:33 AM You might attract more people with a start/stop date. i.e. you can replicate a single eBay share for two years.
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 09:48:12 AM You might attract more people with a start/stop date. i.e. you can replicate a single eBay share for two years. As I said, at any time you will be able to sell the share, providing you find a buyer. Therefore there is no reason to put a end date, especially since I doubt eBay will pay any dividend in the next two years. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: mpkomara on December 15, 2010, 10:05:45 AM If you sell me the "share" of eBay, and I sell the "share" of eBay to person C, then these two shares are not fungible unless you and C agree to face one another and I can step out of the middle. If you do not agree to face C directly, then you owe any eBay dividend payments to me, and i owe the exact divident payments to C. That sounds like trouble.
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 10:12:43 AM If you sell me the "share" of eBay, and I sell the "share" of eBay to person C, then these two shares are not fungible unless you and C agree to face one another and I can step out of the middle. If you do not agree to face C directly, then you owe any eBay dividend payments to me, and i owe the exact divident payments to C. That sounds like trouble. I don't get it. If you buy my share, you give me a bitcoin address where I will put the dividends. If you sell it later to someone, you just give me a new bitcoin address which will not be yours but his's. Seems simple enough to me. Maybe to make it even clearer the seller can use the signing feature of ECDSA to indicate the new address. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: FreeMoney on December 15, 2010, 10:55:05 AM If you sell me the "share" of eBay, and I sell the "share" of eBay to person C, then these two shares are not fungible unless you and C agree to face one another and I can step out of the middle. If you do not agree to face C directly, then you owe any eBay dividend payments to me, and i owe the exact divident payments to C. That sounds like trouble. I don't get it. If you buy my share, you give me a bitcoin address where I will put the dividends. If you sell it later to someone, you just give me a new bitcoin address which will not be yours but his's. Seems simple enough to me. Maybe to make it even clearer the seller can use the signing feature of ECDSA to indicate the new address. Giving a new bitcoin address is not good enough. The purchaser needs to be able to transfer the ability to transfer also. I sell to Person C by giving you his address. Now when he wants to sell to D I have to give you D's address, later D will have to get me to to give you E's address and so on. The way to fix this might be to give a password to the purchaser. If anyone ever says to you "The password is gopher, please change it to g1427xy" then you confirm and henceforth only accept g1427xy. Obviously the password is needed in order to change the bitcoin address that dividends go to also. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 11:08:01 AM The way to fix this might be to give a password to the purchaser. If anyone ever says to you "The password is gopher, please change it to g1427xy" then you confirm and henceforth only accept g1427xy. Obviously the password is needed in order to change the bitcoin address that dividends go to also. I don't like passords. It's much simpler to just sign bitcoin addresses. If we can't do it with the very ECDSA addresses, then we'll just use GnuPG. A gives me his public key and I sign a document saying : I give my eBay share to A, whose public key is .... Then if A wants to sell it to B, he writes and sign a similar document : I give my eBay share to B, whose public key is .... and so on. It's basically the same as the way bitcoin works, except that we don't need all the double spending check, since I'll take care of that. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: FreeMoney on December 15, 2010, 11:44:51 AM Yeah, that sounds good.
This might be more fun with a company that is both more likely to give a dividend and more likely to go bankrupt. Long term deals for small amounts don't appeal to me much. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: fabianhjr on December 15, 2010, 02:06:55 PM Hey, I am worried. While the market from my pov shows it is going to rise soon, afaik eBay hadn't gave a single dividend in its 10 year+ history. Is this past information true? And what dates do you expect a dividend to happen?
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: Grant on December 15, 2010, 02:14:19 PM Since i don't get to own it, and i have to put a lot of trust, and there is no minimum (this is more like speculating that sometime one day they might pay a divie of 0.0x per share).
I'll kickoff this auction, my bid is 0.000001 BTC ;D Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 02:25:43 PM I'll kickoff this auction, my bid is 0.000001 BTC ;D grrr.... Well, I guess it's better than nothing. Grant leads the auction at 0.000001 BTC Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: davout on December 15, 2010, 02:34:40 PM 0.00000101 BTC
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 02:52:53 PM 0.00000101 BTC davout leads at 0.00000101 BTC Come on guys, won't any of you bid at least 1 BTC ? Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: SmokeTooMuch on December 15, 2010, 03:26:27 PM Well, we try to establish a new currency system and ebay isn't one of our biggest friends (paypal, etc.).
so I guess the interest to buy such a share isn't that big. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: davout on December 15, 2010, 03:30:00 PM I trust grondilu to honor his promise =)
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 03:45:00 PM I'll bid 1 BTC for a share that will never pay a dividend and I can't effectively sell :D You can't know for sure if it will pay a dividend or not. eBay's policy is not to pay any in short term. But it might change. And you will be able to sell it, providing you find a buyer. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 03:51:13 PM I stand by the words after my 1 BTC bid :D I don't understand. Please be clearer. Do you bid at 1 BTC ? Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: Cdecker on December 15, 2010, 04:03:09 PM If he doesn't I do: I hereby bid 1 BTC for 1 eBay Share :-)
Would be nice to be the owner of the first share ever sold via Bitcoin ^^ Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 04:04:06 PM If he doesn't I do: I hereby bid 1 BTC for 1 eBay Share :-) Cdecker leads at 1 BTC. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: davout on December 15, 2010, 04:13:27 PM 1.00000001 BTC
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 04:14:37 PM 1.00000001 BTC davout leads at 1.00000001 BTC (yes, I don't care how small is the increment.) Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: Cdecker on December 15, 2010, 04:28:21 PM 1.5 BTC
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 04:29:18 PM Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: nanotube on December 15, 2010, 05:21:24 PM btw, grondilu, for future sales: you might get more interest for a share that is currently paying dividends.
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 05:24:07 PM btw, grondilu, for future sales: you might get more interest for a share that is currently paying dividends. The problem is that I keep those shares for myself ;) ! Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: GeorgeH on December 15, 2010, 09:39:34 PM Would you consider selling a share that actually pays dividends? I would love to buy a share of a company that already pays dividends.
http://www.dividend.com/dividend-stocks/high-dividend-yield-stocks.php http://www.fool.com/investing/dividends-income/2010/04/12/the-best-dividend-stock-period.aspx http://www.stocks-simplified.com/List-of-Dividend-Paying-Stocks.html http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/finder/deluxestockscreen.aspx?query=Highest-Yielding%20S%26P%20500%20Stocks Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 15, 2010, 10:08:22 PM Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: Cdecker on December 16, 2010, 01:08:38 AM Nice to see that we're over the micro-bitcoin increments.
Put down a 2.5 BTC for me ^^ Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 16, 2010, 01:10:30 AM Put down a 2.5 BTC for me ^^ Cdecker leads at 2.5 BTC Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: bober182 on December 16, 2010, 03:34:36 AM Ⓑ5.00
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 16, 2010, 03:36:24 AM Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: pc on December 16, 2010, 09:07:19 PM At what brokerage is the share being held at? What would the fee be to transfer it to someone else? Would you consider an offer that involved actually transferring the share, if the bidder offered to pay the fees involved?
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: Cdecker on December 16, 2010, 09:17:46 PM 7.5 BTC ^^
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 16, 2010, 11:12:38 PM Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 16, 2010, 11:16:41 PM At what brokerage is the share being held at? What would the fee be to transfer it to someone else? Would you consider an offer that involved actually transferring the share, if the bidder offered to pay the fees involved? The share is currently held in my boursorama account. Boursorama is a famous french online bank (http://www.boursorama.com). I doubt it is possible to transfer a specific share from one account to another. Selling the share would cost me almost the price of the share itself, for brokerage fees for US shares are enormous (about 20EUR). So the answer to your question is no, sorry. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 17, 2010, 12:15:10 AM The password idea is not so bad after all. I'm planning on making a CGI script on my website, in order to allow the buyer to give the auction to someone else without having to bother me ;) I suck in HTML forms, but basically it should be a pretty simple bash script : Code: #!/bin/bash Or something like that. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 17, 2010, 01:44:23 AM 40 blocks to go.
Cdeker still leads at 7.5 BTC Should I end this auction on IRC ? Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: bober182 on December 17, 2010, 01:54:52 AM Ⓑ10
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 17, 2010, 01:56:32 AM 10 bober182 leads at 10 BTC. I will soon lock this thread and continue the auction on freenode, #bitcoin-auction there is a webchat place for people not familiar with IRC : http://webchat.freenode.net Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 17, 2010, 02:49:17 AM Who needs a form anyway ?
Just provide your password and new hash on url : http://grondilu.freeshell.org/eBayShare.cgi?passwd=XXXX&hash=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA... Code: #!/usr/pkg/bin/bash Title: Locking the thread (Re: auction for 1 EBAY share ) Post by: grondilu on December 17, 2010, 04:28:22 AM As announced, I lock the thread. The auction continues on freenode, #bitcoin-auction Title: Auction for 1 EBAY share has ended Post by: grondilu on December 17, 2010, 06:57:33 AM Nanotube wins the auction with 10.01 BTC.
I've set up a HTTP service in order to transfer the share. See CGI script up in this thread. it can be called "by hand" or with the following program : Code: #!/bin/bash When eBay pays a dividend (if it does), then in order to claim it, the owner just has to change the password into a bitcoin address where he wants to receive paiement. Then he changes it again in order to make it appear in the log. I'll always use the most recent bitcoin address in the log for paiement. So if you want to make sure you'll get the dividend, chose a bitcoin address as your first password, and then swich it to any other password. If you lose your password, theoretically you won't be able to transfer the share anymore. But you will still receive dividends. I hope it's clear. Nanotube, I'll PM you the current password once I acknowledge the paiement of 10.01 BTC at the following address : 1NkfLHmCRb7uYMwYiDpgxZwc9naxnxxQSC Thanks everyone. Title: Re: Auction for 1 EBAY share has ended Post by: nanotube on December 17, 2010, 07:48:53 AM Nanotube, I'll PM you the current password once I acknowledge the paiement of 10.01 BTC at the following address : 1NkfLHmCRb7uYMwYiDpgxZwc9naxnxxQSC payment sent. Title: Re: Auction for 1 EBAY share has ended Post by: grondilu on December 17, 2010, 08:07:52 AM Nanotube, I'll PM you the current password once I acknowledge the paiement of 10.01 BTC at the following address : 1NkfLHmCRb7uYMwYiDpgxZwc9naxnxxQSC payment sent. Good. I've PMed you the current password. Again, I advise you to chose a bitcoin address for your first password. Then you change it to any other password (not necessarly a bitcoin address), so that your bitcoin address will appear in the log. http://grondilu.freeshell.org/eBayShare.log The log is basically a list of all used passwords. The most recent bitcoin address I will see there will be the one which will collect dividends. So essentially in order to sell this share, all you have to do is to sell the pasword. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 17, 2010, 08:55:55 AM I've changed the code a bit so that the log is a bit more explicit.
But I can't see the result until nanotube change the password. I'm waiting for him to do so ;) Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: Cdecker on December 17, 2010, 09:03:46 AM Congratulations nanotube for the first ever share to be bought by BTC ^^
Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: bober182 on December 18, 2010, 06:44:10 AM FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
the block was at 3am and I missed it to a goddamn auction sniper. Gratz tho lets see if there is a market for this. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 18, 2010, 07:07:43 AM FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu the block was at 3am and I missed it to a goddamn auction sniper. Gratz tho lets see if there is a market for this. You can make a bid to nanotube. I've tried to make it possible to sell the share after this auction. He owns the password that identifies the owner of the share. You can buy him this password. PS. I'm working on a CGI script that will be GnuPG based. No password would be required to transfer ownership, you would just sign a text saying you give the share. Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: nanotube on December 18, 2010, 11:08:30 PM FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu the block was at 3am and I missed it to a goddamn auction sniper. Gratz tho lets see if there is a market for this. You can make a bid to nanotube. I've tried to make it possible to sell the share after this auction. He owns the password that identifies the owner of the share. You can buy him this password. PS. I'm working on a CGI script that will be GnuPG based. No password would be required to transfer ownership, you would just sign a text saying you give the share. that sounds like a good idea. :) Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: nanotube on December 18, 2010, 11:09:39 PM FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu the block was at 3am and I missed it to a goddamn auction sniper. Gratz tho lets see if there is a market for this. sorry bober... i was hanging out there... thinking should i or shouldn't i bid... then i saw block 97999, and figured, why not. :) Title: Re: auction for 1 EBAY share Post by: grondilu on December 19, 2010, 01:09:00 AM PS. I'm working on a CGI script that will be GnuPG based. No password would be required to transfer ownership, you would just sign a text saying you give the share. that sounds like a good idea. :) Unfortunately the code is quite a bit more difficult to write. Thus, until then the password system will be used. I did improve the CGI script though. Now there is a proper form to enter password and hash. It's also not limited to eBay any more : DRDGold will be there too. http://grondilu.freeshell.org/brokerage.cgi Title: I launch my stock exchange plateform ! Post by: grondilu on December 22, 2010, 07:59:13 PM Yeah I know right now there are only two companies, and a grand total of 2 shares (one in each).
But it's just the beginning. http://grondilu.freeshell.org/brokerage.cgi Basically all you need is a GnuPG key in order to identify yourself and to authenticate your orders. All signatures are logged so that you should audit everything which is done. It has been tested but I would not be suprised if problems would appear. This does not make compensation : you transfer ownership of shares. You have to trust other party to give you the bitcoins you expect. Later I'll make a compensation service, plus a book order system. |