Bitcoin Forum

I'm getting anywhere from 1/3rd to 1/4 the BTC/day out of my rig since the last increase... I know they say that difficulty doesn't relate to the price directly, but I think it needs to start :)  $15/BTC isn't going to cut it for long...

Then don't sell them if you believe they are undervalued.

Income dropped to under 10 bitcoins per day for the first time on my farm but it still far exceeds the price of electricity.
Don't see a reason to stop until about 6-8M difficulty.

When income is less than a bitcoin per day at current prices then I'd say it's not worth it.

But if you run a small cluster then yes, there is no sense in selling at current prices unless you really need the USD. The obvious thing to do is to wait for a bump to $20-$30+.

First time I'm seeing less than 6 blocks an hour, according to Bitcoin charts :O

Ive decided to go on strike aswell with regards to selling at these prices.

Im only selling atm to cover electricity bills.

Im not even selling them for that... im not going to unless price is in the $25+ range.

As for the comment about blocks/hr, there's 2 sites I watch, bitcoin charts gives 5.69/hr, and bitcoin watch gives 6.17/hr. Either way, Its nice to see it somewhat steady for a little while.

Yeah, not selling either... just stockpiling, but was doing better before this most recent increase, even with previous ones.  Might be time to add another PC or two.

Damn, you must have a nice little farm set up.

My main concern is that the people buying bitcoin don't value them in the same way as we, the miners, do. To a daytrader, it doesn't matter what the difficulty is as long as they can sell high and buy low.

I have a little text file I've been maintaining for the past several difficulty increases.
Each of these days represents a different difficulty level:

670 Mh/s =    

1.39 BTC (6/6/11 12:30 AM)
1.07 BTC (6/7/11 9:00 AM)
0.691 BTC (6/15/11 9:00 AM)
0.438 BTC (6/24/11 7:00 AM)

So 670 Mh/s brought in 1.39 BTC a day at the beginning of June, but currently brings in .438/day.
This is NOT EVEN ONE FULL MONTH.

See why you can't trust those "monthly income calculators"?

I sometimes wonder if these low selloffs which usually happen with <50BTC isnt from people begging for donations then simply trying to fill their sell as fast as possible.

Thus, Stop giving to beggers :)

Because choosing 9 hours before a difficulty change as your starting BTC value really makes sense as a timeline?

The start of the 1.39 BTC cycle was 5/26, so that was more or less a month. That aside though, this was a big and painful growth period for miners to be sure. Pity the foos who were buying rigs in the middle.

With the steadying of difficulty however it's possible if they stick it out they'll recoup though. Keep those fingers crossed lil buddies.

that's about 20x 6990, you must have the night shift at a game development company!  :o

Condolences, miners.  Just wrote a story about this @ http://www.bitcoinminingaccidents.com/?p=335 (http://www.bitcoinminingaccidents.com/?p=335)

i have faith everything will balance out.... the only reason that I can think why it wouldn't is if new technology is introduced or used for mining- like the move from CPU's to GPU's..... until a big jump in production like that happens i suspect they will always balance out in the end.

 that is just speculation though- as is most any predictions regardimg the future.....*

i'm looking at 0.000x rewards per session at the given difficulty.

always had very limited GPU power, but for myself, it's not profitable anymore at the current rate, so i'm stopping my mining.

But as the poster above me said, it might balance out sooner or later.

If lots of people think like that it means that a large amount of bitcoins that people really want to sell is piling up. When you give up waiting the price will crash.

And when the price crashes, people like me will buy the crap out of BTC while it's low. I can' only pray for another major crash because I'll finally have the funds to take advantage of it.

Anyways, I was getting like .40 BTC a day and now I'm getting like .25.


People should quit worrying. I can predict the future and it tells me that the value of BTC will skyrocket. I'm only speculating in order to make short term profits but more than half of my BTC are staying in a secure place as I wait for this event to fully unfold. People should really ignore the value and difficulty for now and just consider it an investment. Why were people mining from 2009 to March of this year when the BTC was only worth pennies? Just wait. When what I say comes true, I'll be on easy street before the feds have a chance to jump on this and cause any disruptions.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Indeed.  Bitcoin's value requires a constant infusion of new market participants.  If people become disillusioned with mining and bitcoin fails to find a real use, the hoarders waiting for a better price will be waiting for Godot.  If enough people come to the conclusion that 'this is as good as it gets' in regards to BTC's price, it's a downward spiral from there.  Sellers attract more sellers as BTCs are dumped onto fewer and fewer buyers.  Speculators may cherish this buying opportunity but there comes a time when even the strongest believer in a commodity must wonder if they're going to be stuck holding the bag.

Another hilarious post  ;D

I had 3 5850 got 1.5BTC a day 2 weeks ago.. Now I have 6 5850 again getting 1.5BTC a day...
Very Very sad...

Man.... sucks to be the guys who invested that much money into this. All I invested was $200 into a single video card and I've almost made my money back. I'm certainly not going to complain about a free video card.

5850s

And people are RIGHT NOW bidding 5830's up to $160 on eBay -- at least that's the going "market rate" on eBay for them. Which is ridiculous -- anyone hoping to MAKE MONEY is going to be disappointed, because you'll never see $160 from one of those cards. A person would be better off buying $160 worth of BTC.

5830s, unlike 5850s, do NOT get 0.25 BTC/day.  5830s only get 0.167 BTC/day.

Now if it wasn't $160, it might be an OK deal. Perhaps $130 at the absolute highest.
Really, what made the 5830 popular was the $110 price point. It's NOT the ultimate card for Bitcoin mining. There are plenty of cards that mine better than that card!

When I see people bidding the 5830 up higher than a 5850 or 5870, I have to shake my head. The 5850 gets about 350 MH/s and the 5970 gets about 365 MH/s, with moderate overclocking (no voltage tweaking).

Unfortunately, the smart people figure it out first, followed by the pretty smart, followed by those of average intelligence, followed by those of below-average intelligence.

Not everyone "figures things out" at the same time.

Just like with the Dot-Com bubble, just like with house flipping. There were some people who didn't know the bubble burst even after it burst! They still thought the bubble was intact (rather than burst). Those people, of course, lost plenty of money.

You want to be one of the quick ones -- one of the smart ones.

A 5870 can get 430 MH/s without touching the voltage.

Just sold a used 5830 on ebay this weekend for $162.50 shipped before ebay/paypal fees. So take away shipping and ebay fees and I netted ~$125. Not bad for a $109 card. :)

BTW, anyone else think ebay fees are completely out of hand? Ebay charged $14.63 in fees for that $162.50 sale. Then Paypal charged $5.01. That is around 12 percent for simply hosting a web page and moving some money around. I'm close to saying screw ebay on most stuff and going back to craigslist. So many retards on craigslist though...

The sky is always falling with him, and the worst case scenario is always the norm, don't pay much attention.



I would never sell on ebay, the markup you need is retarded. The fees total roughly 13% with paypal. I use private sites to traffic in my video cards (better for buying and selling, yay). The only time I used ebay in the past 8 years was because of that groupon deal that gave you 60% off purchases. Other than that that site can piss off.

My 5830s does 300 Mh/s at less noise and less heat than my 5850s (my 5850s are voltage locked since the stupid software won't adjust it without it being in crossfire, they are stable at 323 Mh/s).  My 5870s (without touching voltage), will only do around410-415 Mh/s. 

If I was redoing my farm, I would only use 5830s but I agree that the price of $160 isn't a great deal for them.  I picked mine up for $110.

You've just answered your own question about why people use eBay.  Binding agreements and you almost always get paid.  Selling through forums or other means is like pulling teeth.  eBay's charges are terrible but there are few other viable alternatives.

Its amazing that you would imply others are of lower intelligence than yourself when you ignore the very base and simple concept of:

It is impossible to predict future price
It is impossible to predict future price
It is impossible to predict future price
It is impossible to predict future price

So yeah maybe that 5830 will never make you $160. Or maybe it will make you $1600.

Seriously man enough with the posts. You don't want more people to mine, because then it'll be harder for you. I'm seriously crying at how bad I feel for you, you poor poor little baby. (sarcasm obv)

Relax. It seems that all the discouragement from Angelus is working. Why else would we be stalling at roughly 6 blocks per hours?! :)

I only started like 3 weeks ago making .33 coins a day with one 6870. now i'm making 15-16. i realized i was getting into this pretty late but it still seemed worth the investment before the latest increase. i was going to buy another rig too that could support two gpus because my current miner has only one pcie slot.

i was still optimistic a couple of days ago but now a new rig seems like a bad idea. i really thought we'd already be seeing some price hikes to go along with this difficulty increase but none so far. i guess those hardcore miners are keeping a steady supply to meet demand. i guess i'll just keep mining my one card and try to recoup the investment.

Look guys, here is the bottom line. The amount of btc paid out per hour is like a lottery, its basically a fixed amount regardless of how many miners there are. If more people mining then it means less btc for everyone.

With that being said the bottom line is that the only people who are going to mine in the future are those who have the most efficient mining rigs. By efficiency I mean the people with the lowest cost for electricity and the most efficient rigs that can turn that electricity into btc. If your electricity is over 10c/kwh then its pretty much game over.

As the difficulty increases only those that meet the above criteria will continue to mine. Everyone else will just go bankrupt.

I would strongly suggest to analyze their rig operation and see if it makes sense to mine in the future. If the answer is no then best to sell while you are ahead. For most of you, the biggest problem is that you electricity is too expensive.

Would you ever be better off than if you just bought a suitable number of bitcoins for USD directly right this instant, though? If not, it's entirely pointless to buy one for bitcoin mining at that price.

Everybody that thinks this way should buy my mined bitcoins from me. Shush, go away! Let us nerds mine in peace for the helluvit. Buying $160 (or $1,000 for that matter) Bitcoins on an exchange is nothing compared to the joy you get from building a rig yourself from scratch. It's like having a baby! (Also about as high-maintenance.)

Really, it's not so bad. I expected difficulty to rise a lot more since there are so many people with cheaper electricity than me. But now it seems to level off and people are already exiting which makes it that much more profitable for me to mine. ;)

Who needs to recoup investments when they have fun playing around with hardware?! I've not built a system from scratch in almost 10 years!

All you whiny get-rich-fast miners should sell your stuff on eBay and buy some coins at your local exchange.

Total hashrate is nearly below 10Thashes - down from like ~12. Seems some people don't like the new difficulty.
Or was it a display bug?

Nope. That's more likely just the ups and downs of luck.
If there's a block/hour ratio of (more or less) 6 that means people still run their rigs but do not add new hardware (which had already been unfeasible before the last difficulty change).

So IMHO everybody is still on board (more or less) but right now it's not attractive to invest in new hardware. Should the price rise again we will see another rise in difficulty because more people will buy new hardware (new and old miners alike).

Price will collapse and 0 - 2016 blocks later so will difficulty. Unless BTC is deposed from some other inherent flaw in the long run this will only make mining more attractive to those of us who think BTC has a future in its own right.

More likely the efficient will crowd out the inefficient as gigahash miners become tera and peta hash miners.

Yup, but the block/hour ratio was nearly 8 few days ago.. haven't known that luck could have such a big impact at such high hashing rates.

How many few days ago? Mind you, the last diff change was on Friday.
http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-2k.png shows the variance (green line) quite nicely.

According to those graphs it looks like difficulty is now slightly above mining interest.
If there are no more price spikes I suspect the next difficulty might be less than 10%(???) when the next adjustment comes around.

It was definitely on current difficulty 1379223, but, as already mentioned, could have been a display error due to the diff increase.
-> http://www.bitcoincharts.com/markets/

Yeah, I don't know why they don't reset that stat after a difficulty change. Takes at least 24 hours for the "network hashrate" to adapt after a difficulty change.

Because when you buy a rig, many people see it as an additional hedge...If bitcoin goes to $0, they can still sell this rig for some amount of $. If they invested straight in bitcoins and that happened, tough luck.

Plus all the stuff Yeti says.

Single mining operations will never reach tera/petahash performance with conventional GPU's or even clusters in data centers with massive amperage.

ASIC boards will overtake GPU's in power efficiency by at least 2012-2013, if not earlier. Devices hashing multiple hundred mhash/s at a few watts will become the norm once GPU mining becomes infeasible & mining will continue.

Why? Because market conditions will make ASIC mining favorable. Even if 120 ghash/s will only create 0.45 BTC per day in 2013, a farm of circuit boards creating that amount of BTC per day will only draw maybe 1kW of power and cost a few hundred dollars.

Price per BTC will probably not stagnate at $17 at that point either, due to demand & immense difficulty of creating new blocks.

But this is assuming same growth. And 120Gh/s for half BTC with GPU technology does not cover electricity expenses even at the cheaper rate of 8 cents Kw I think (I have not made the math really), so its not going to happen.

If price doesn't rise in the hundreds of dollars then it wont happen until FPGA/ASIC boards are released.
Assume a Radeon 5850 gets around 300mhash/s at 225 watts. That's 90,000 watts of constant power consumption for 120ghash/s

If electricity costs about $0.10 per kWh,
you are spending $216 dollars per day to generate 0.45 bitcoins.

If the price of 1 bitcoin is below $480 ($216 for 0.45) nobody is going to mine them on GPU's.

Well, if you're going to assume that growth will be the same, then the BTC value will double every 3-4 weeks as it has done in the course of June alone.  Assuming worst case scenario (4 weeks) that puts the BTC value at $1088 per BTC by the end of December (based off $17 by the end of June). 

Thus mining will still be profitable.

Come on, people! Mining will always be profitable! If it won't be profitable anymore (for a short period of time), people will drop out like they did with Namecoin mining and the difficulty will drop. Thus making it profitable again. Somebody will always be mining, otherwise who would include your transactions into the blockchain?!

Whether it will be profitable for the Average Joe is another question. In the long run, when prices are more or less stable (2-3% variance on a "bad" day), only the most efficient will be mining.

This part of the thread is absolutely central. People have to realize that unless there is something tangible that they can buy with bitcoin easily, daytraders will be the ones who determines BTC's value. We have to get sites off the ground that are accepting BTC for actual goods and services, or else Bitcoin will always just be a version of Forex with less transaction fees.

The only guarantee is that it will remain profitable for people with pre-existing hardware and free electricity.  People who pay a lot for electricity may find it no longer profitable in the not too distant future, and people who would have to buy hardware up-front to start mining with now are already finding it unprofitable.

No, actually.

I have found a way to circumvent the difficulty.

I can still mine at a difficulty of 1 if I want to, but I don't.

Ehh, how can that even be possible?

Sure, if you wanna be alone in your blockchain...

I just bought a 5830 for BTC.  It should pay for itself in about a month, and I'll buy whatever I can then.  It's already happening and, really, buying things other than t-shirts has really only begun to be possible in the first part of this year.  So, just give it some time.  As a miner, I know time seems to go VERY slowly, but really, things are changing incredibly quickly in the community right now with innovation and services coming quickly now.

Patience is a virtue, because my rigs pay out over time.  ;)

You got a 5830 for $72.30?  Good deal!

Because if you got one for $72.30, it would pay for itself in 30 days. (Actually, that calculation assumes no increases in difficulty...which is a bit of a stretch.)

That's the definition of a Ponzi scheme.

I switched a PC off a couple of weeks ago that was running a 5750, and am about to sell some 6950 hardware.  Both those PCs are still profitable at current power prices, but the return was very small and I just don't see the point in earning a few dollars per day per PC when they're probably depreciating in value almost as quickly.  The hash rate is still going up, meaning either people are paying a lot less for power than I am (0.25c/kwh) or they don't pay for power at all (fixed contracts or stealing power from work).

Even with the current difficulty squeeze on profits we'll see a difficulty increase of at least 20% next week (estimated at 8% right now).  If FPGA mining ever takes off then GPU mining will be killed off within weeks.

It's half way to a Ponzi scheme.  A Ponzi scheme also requires something of little to no real value changing hands, and payouts to early participants being paid from later participants.  Hmmmm.

Some people argue the world's banking systems and stock markets are a giant Ponzi scheme, as they rely on young people buying up assets at rising prices to benefit older asset holders.  But at least a stock represents ownership in a company making a useful product or providing a service.

The inevitable and fully predictable difficulty rate that's putting a squeeze on Bitcoin mining profits is a short term danger to Bitcoin.  Many people first noticed Bitcoin because it was a way to make money by having a PC running software.  The lost interest of these people must be replaced with real world uses and practical applications for Bitcoin.

Not to be a jerk but these posts serve no purpose. "Ooh I can get around difficulty, but I won't say how."

Then don't tell us in the first place. I'm happy for you but it really adds nothing constructive to the conversation.

@Nagle -- No, just no. Let's not even get into this again. Just because something requires growth doesn't make it a ponzi scheme, using what I'm thinking you are defining as a ponzi scheme. Elsewise all fiat currency under current capitalism is ponzi.

@Cluster2k -- GPU mining will be killed off within weeks, say wha? FPGAs are low watt, low hash, HIGH COST items. Unless FPGAs take off with huge huge huge investment no such thing will happen. That one FPGA guy back in the day might have seemed like big potatoes back when the network was 1THash, but he doesn't seem so interesting now (and I assume there is a reason why he couldn't leave his FPGA cluster running for more than a few weeks, such as it being borrowed from some lab or something). But then again if there is ever any serious dumping of huge amounts of money into mining it will drive out most everyone else, regardless of platform.

Used? Wow I thought I did good selling one for $155 new. I mean, I did still do good, profited off a card I wasn't going to use. Due diligence -- people gotta get better at it.

I really resent you implying our Pyramid Scheme is a Ponzi scheme.

Hi guys,
I saw this post and I thought that I should share my experiences as a miner.

In the early days,I did this solo for 3wks b4 realising that the smarter option 4 me is to mine in a pool.
Shortly after I added my laptop in addition to my PC (Has Radeon Hd 4670 GPU will be upgraded soon to radeon HD 6950 GPU) during the day to boost production to 0.06btc per day then.This was achieved by running my PC for 14hrs a day (cant do 24/7 due to overheating issues and high electric rates in my area) alongside my laptop (MBP mid 2010 with Nvidia GT330M GPU) during the day.

This sounds strange as during the day my elec usage combined is only 190W with 2 computers combined (140W total for my desktop and 50W for laptop with GPU at full load but CPU idle) which was much lower than expected.This helps keep elec cots under control and stop those overheating issues as well.

But the difference is at night,I shut off my PC but keep my laptop to maximise my chances of getting a small trickle of btc whilst eliminating excess power use at night (by switching off everything to do with PC and eliminating wall vampires-a term used by eco conscious ppl to describe appliances that draw power when seemingly 'off'.)

I then make sure the laptop is run from the mains (so that it doesn't waste energy charging up the battery as well as GPU mining) then put the screen to sleep and HDD to idle mode to save about 12Watts of power.

This may sound strange as a strategy but its effective at keeping my elec bill low while getting those much valued btc (so I still make more than I pay for the elec this way as the Pcs hard work compensates for its power use and hte laptop pays for itself,sort of)

If u guys can help me build a low cost solar power system where it consists of a low cost solar panel that can charge the dep cycle batt in garden during the day then at night run laptop from inverter that way i run on free elec overnight and when early morning comes,3 hrs on laptops batt while solar generator is charging the deep cycle batt so that reduce the burden on mains elec then.

Does this sound stupid to u guys or is it an interesting approach to the problem?

Your "approach", for lack of better terms, is stupid. What's the point of having GPU mining systems that are not running 24/7 while electricity is cheaper than the BTC generated? The whole point of having dedicated mining machines is to have maximum up-time, which you are effectively destroying. Also, mining with a Laptop GPU is just as bad as mining with a CPU, since their hashing power is 10x less than a graphics card. So money put into using that to mine is probably being lost due to electricity costs.

Look muffin,I know that my current approach is ineffective but it serves as an interm temp 'solution' until the PC is upgraded to a Radeon HD 6950 gpu.I can't run 24/7 on mining as this is unfeasible in my area due to overheating issues as well as having to make budget cuts (I'm effectively forced to,so I hav no choice in the matter)

My laptop runs 24/7 cus heat output and energy use is low. If u have ny helpful suggestions for building like a solar generator system to run my laptop,elec will b free for that laptop and thus reduce my costs as there'll be room for a more powerful PC running about 17hrs a day a wk (as this is a gd in between solution for me between mining maximum btc that I can do and still keep power use/heat output under control)

My PC is mainly used for special Ops not mining,however they can include mining,experiments and processing the films I make after editing them on macbook pro (as I need Final Cut Pro 7 tools as required from workplace to use) as well as just working normally as well.The laptop is usually used to backup my main PC so that I always have the edge in my work place in terms of combined processing power from CPU+GPU from both computers linked together working on those huge 1080P HD film files that can reach 100GB+ at a time when it's RAW captured footage ok.

I still want to be allowed flexible mining when I can,so that I can mine while working on my films at the same time with 2 comps combined nythin is possible 4 me.Compared to the guys n filmmakers at my workplace my 2 computers are unstoppable  :D

0.06 BTC/day is less than electricity.  That may be what he's trying to say.

If you're that desperate, go check ebay for buy it nows.  I got a pair of 5870's for $500.  They're probably even cheaper right about now :)

I get about 750-850 MH/s pool mining, which at present difficulty is about 0.50 BTC.  So, it's still covering electricity, and maybe a little bit more, but not much.  At 0.06 you might as well use this:

http://media.gdgt.com/img/product/16/cnr/motorola-startac-6500-qr9-460.jpg

Ok guys,can u plz take it easy on the replies cus I'm trying to say that once hte upgrade is complete I won't be in that mess ny more now ok.I come here to ask for suggestions and share my experiences on mining.

I'm still hearing nothing about the best low cost design for a solar generator for the laptop which will be used for something else that I can build easily and cheaply (other than mining ok).I'd like to change the direction of the conversation now as I feel the reponses are getting a little far now esp hte phone idea plus the suggsetions that I'm desparate are not helping me.I'm doing this mainly as a series of experiments.

Radeon HD6950 GPU can get me 390-450 max MHash/s from wot i heard from a friend of mine on the PC.I only add extra comps to boost my overall MHash/s to see how many work PC/Mac comps I can get away with mining with (u can't get fired for mining as long as u don't mess up their systems)

Posters plz understand this.The whole laptop and Pc mining thing is an 'interm solution' until the upgrade is successfully complete as im waiting 4 my GPU 2 get here,NOT a permanent solution as this is unviable for the long term.I know this fully and I am reasonably competent with computers (In fact i spent a decade working with them,studying them,creating art on them,making films on them,experimenting with them,upgrading them,heck even done basic programming on them,I have reasonable experience on multi-platform setups PC/Mac/Linux as I work on them in my day to day for film making,writing up seminars/reports and mining as well)

I hope this clarifys things 4 u.

If you were to power your laptop alone with solar power, you are going to need about 150W of solar panels. This will adequately charge the battery while the sun is putting out it's ideal power and cover efficiency loss. The panels plus their charge controllers alone will run you hundreds. (eBay is borked right now so I'll add better price estimate later) You need a deep cycle battery of decent size for this. Do NOT get a car or starter battery. You will ruin those in a short amount of time. Amp hours are your friend here and cranking amps aren't needed for this. The battery + inverter will be another $100. I got a 400W inverter off Newegg on a sale for $20. Expect $10 per 100W normally though. Pure sine wave is an added cost, but you don't need it for what you are doing.

Making your own power is cool and all, but you have to realize that when it comes to solar panels, there is no such thing as low cost. If you are trying to save money, look somewhere else. You will end up paying more for these parts to produce the electricity than you will in electricity from the utility. I pay $2.00 a day for my rigs, but am making $15 a day. My electricity rate is $0.101 per kwh. What's your's?

Also, please, use proper grammar and spell check when writing large blocks of text. People will be kinder.

You sir, are most undoubtedly retarded due your utterance of that statement. That is all

in part of Uk i'm in,electricity rate is about $0.23 (equivalent £0.14 in UK,this has now risen to £0.20 now).Solar panels are cheap where I am but deep cycle batteries are pricey plus inverter and charge regulator.

A solar system typically has solar panels,deep cycle battery,charge regulator and of course and inverter (not needed if running off 12V.Runnng a MBP from airline/car adaptor means you run from 12V and can skip on the inverter)

Also a MBP uses no more than 85W at a time from mains when under full load and charging the battery at the same time. When my MBP is only charging the battery but idling,it uses 66W for fast charging (in 2hrs)

When battery is full,but GPU is under load my MBP uses 50-55W (60W if monitor is on as well) whereas CPU uses more power and gives less performance than GPU mining with it. I got these watt figures by using a watt meter.Also running from mains adaptor and through an invertor means losing some of the energy to conversion so it's best to just run a MBP (MacBook Pro) with it's airline/car adaptor I think as its straight from 12V supply.

In response to the poster who asked me to double check my grammar and spell check it,well can you please be more constructive and show me where the spell check tool is on this forum, and I will take your tip more positively in the future,thank you.Problem is I'm always busy with everything else,I type fast and I have wireless keyboard, so sometimes, certain keys won't fire if you can understand what I mean (say If I type this sentee and the c key doesn't fire sometimes or it gets jumbled up between reciever and keyboard,it happens sometimes,like this 'im tstng my keybrd' this shows that several keys are not 'firing' when they should be sometimes. or 'hte','teh') I guess this forum requires a higher standard of spelling and grammar whereas all other sites I go to don't care as long as I'm vaguely understandable,that's all and I've also come to expect this to be universal (of course this isn't the case).I'm stuck with current Keyboard until next upgrade cycle in 2014.(each upgrade cycle is 4 to 6 years due to budget cuts and is generally more cost effective for me than it is to maintain an aging system).Thank you for your understanding about the issues.

On a lighter note however,My new PC case has arrived and all neccessary parts will be upgraded when it all arrives like Case,new fans (as cases supplied ones are crap for cooling as its the Coolermaster Silencio 550 case as i expect quiet and cool computing for good price) and Radeon HD 6950 (old stock on sale that may have unlocking feature for it's shaders).