Bitcoin Forum

You shouldn't ever write when your agitated, but here goes.

Bitcoin is not just for Linux users
Think about whether you fancy yourself as part of the "technological ruling elite". Bitcoin has nothing to do with any OS. All people should be able to freely use and enjoy this technological advancement. Different OS's represent different user groups, and those groups may differ from you in many ways. They probably differ in technical expertise from yourself. The solution isn't to make them just like you....

Stop Blaming the victims
It's already well known that for every hack some portion of the blame will rest on the victim. No doubt, they will also be blaming themselves. Most likely they were running windows, and they didn't do X, Y, or Z. Instead of trolling their loss, show some empathy, and work out what we have learned. See if theres anyway the 'bitcoin system' could be set up to avoid these kinds of losses (to go hand in hand with 'user education').

Stop being so God-damn defensive
We are all indebted to the people who develop bitcoin. Still, they are men and women, not Gods. If you see a new comminuty forming around Bitcoin (as is happening), and they have different needs, roll with it. Just say, "yes, the client (or documentation, or whatever) can always improve. We are working on it, and would love to hear your ideas". If we start setting up sacred cows its only encourages more trolling on 'both sides' when in reality were on the 'same side'. Case in point, having to know that you even have a wallet.dat file, let alone that is unencrypted, is a area of bitcoin that can be, and is being, improved. Just admit it. If you do admit it, dont worry - it doesn't mean all of bitcoin will go down as a failure for all of time.

Clearly the bitcoin community has seen a rapid increase of users that differ somewhat from the initial users. There are growing pains. Can't we all just get along? *Group Hug*.

I love you but I feel like punching whoever hacked tweetforum dead in their face.

*Group Hug Entire Community*

EDIT:And whoever been hacking anything that's not theirs. Theres much better ways to get BTC'S than by hacking people...

elitist*

Bad habbit of mine, fixed ;)

Mouse, I agree with you. But the Bitcoin community is very big and there are people with different opinion regarding technology. Its how it is.

I've seen a good bit of Linux specific talk, but i haven't seen to much Linux elitism here (although i spend a lot of time in Linux specific communities so maybe I'm desensitized). I'm just glad the board isn't over run with distro wars over who's pet distro is better for Bitcoin and network security that another's pet distro.

As for the the rest, I think its just the uncertainty in the air lately that none of us want to admit to. With the hacks, malware, scams, and rampant trolls plaguing our beautiful baby currency, it can make one feel a little on edge about investments made, and we take out on each other.

Hopefully as each of these issues are resolved/diminished we will see a return to a more friendly atmosphere.

*Hugs*

I disagree. Bitcoin is in its early stages and not idiot proof at all. Currently, we only have the core functionality: sending coins from your computer to somebody else. All the convenience functions like security are missing and whoever wants to use Bitcoins right now needs to understand that it's her own responsibility to keep them safe.
You need to understand the average computer user here: To them, having an insecure Windows machine is no big deal: It doesn't matter that their email account got hacked and is sending spam because they used an insecure password, they just get a new email address with another insecure password. It doesn't matter that their computer becomes part of a botnet and gets a lot of malware thus running slower and slower: The average computer user will just say "Well, computers get slower over time, I just have to buy a new one or hand mine over to my neighborhood geek to fix it". Also, it doesn't matter if their HDD breaks. They don't have backups, but the files on their computer weren't important to them anyways and all their important holiday photos are on facebook anyways.

Now, the important thing here is that Bitcoin is different from all these other problems: Contrast it to email: The whole point of email is to allow you to communicate. If your account gets cracked and is used for spam, you can create another email address and continue with what it's about: communication.
The point of Bitcoin is to move money around. The really big difference is that getting hacked here actually destroys the whole point of Bitcoin since it's actually a loss to you: It's not like "Oh, my computer is slow, I'll just get it fixed", if your wallet gets stolen it's not possible to just create a new one: You actually lost that money and no friendly neighborhood geek can fix that for you.

What I'm trying to say is that AT THE MOMENT Bitcoin is not suitable for your average "I use Windows and I don't care that it's insecure" user. Because Bitcoin is in it's early stages, any serious business with it should only be done in a secure environment, namely a secure OS. If anything, for convenience you should only keep a very small amount of Bitcoins on your Windows machine, but not more than you can afford to lose.

I think that in the future, Bitcoin will become fool proof; the average user can just use an online wallet in combination with a RSA token, just like online banking works right now. But we aren't there yet and saying "Don't be elitist, every idiot should be using Bitcoins today!" does more harm than good.

By the way, using Linux is no big deal: even a chicken can install it if you place enough seeds on the ENTER key and you can just install it parallel to Windows: When you turn on your computer you'll get a little selection window where you can choose to either start Windows or Ubuntu. Also, during install, Ubuntu offers you to encrypt your Ubuntu partition, which is exactly what you want to keep your money safe. Use Windows for your pocket money and Ubuntu for your savings account.

The BTC community is/was largely made out of extreme tech geeks.
As such, there will be a large proportion of people with asperger/autist tendencies, social insensitivity, irritation and other "flaws".

However, were it not for those pioneers, Bitcoin couldn't exist.
They are the few people in the world who, despite their quirks, are capable of sustaining, developing and spreading something like Bitcoin.

I don't know a damn about Linux or command lines despite having a big mining farm. But I realize those people are still valuable and smart.
Of course, if 'we' want to make Bitcoins "presentable" then defensiveness and elitist attitudes would have to fade.

Rocketfella that is the whole point of the OP.

bitcoins right now suck, and we should work to make them not suck, instead of just attack newbies.

+1
I fully agree, there is no need for elitism!

For the network to be secure we will always depend on some people who really understand the system and run it accordingly but not everyone will have to know exactly how it works to use and gain from Bitcoin.

The Bitcoin ecosystem grows and there will be different clients, different online wallet services etc, so that everybody will be able to choose his or her personal compromise between security and usability.

I recommend everyone who could use some good spirit around this forum to check out this thread (https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12133.0) - maybe even revive it ;)

I think Rockfella made a good point here. Currently, well, it is mainly for geeks which don't use Windows. At least if you want to keep it yourself, on your computer. You may as well trust a third party to keep your money, but the recent attacks on MtGox show us even that is not very secure either.

I realize it's a pity, but I really don't see how can you expect average non technical people to protect their bitcoins effectively. That might change in the future, let's hope it does, but it is not the case right now.


Entirely in agreement with that one.

To be fair, bitcoin isn't exactly something that should be used without understanding how it stores your coins on your computer (well, technically, they aren't in your wallet.dat, but you don't need to really know that).  If you were developing a web browser, sure I can agree there's no real use for users to know what file cookies are stored in, where the cache is at, etc.  However, with Bitcoins, you should at least know what wallet.dat is in order to have the ability to back it up or move it about; we are talking about money here, and it's not like you would go to a bank either without understanding their policies.

Well I haven't learned anything from their mistakes but hopefully other people with wallets full of bitcoins might read their stories and wake up a little regarding their 'open windows' security situation.    So for that reason I don't think they should be treated too harshly, and I hope also that people continue to post these stories with as much background info as possible.

You know, I don't want any of these people to lose bitcoin but it is actually quite annoying to me that a hacker is getting a big free ride off them while I acquire my coins the honest way. 

There Fixed it.

The bitcoin infrastructure is not a product, if people come in and try to treat it as such, they are bound to be disappointed. If you want to build and market a compliant client, please by all means, if you can find a market niche meet it. As it stands bitcoind is FLOSS, in FLOSS land meritocracy matters, and you don't get to make demands if you don't contribute usable code, otherwise you are asking the devs to work for you for free, which is not a very compelling argument.

The Bitcoin protocol maybe for everyone, but the client you get at bitcoin.org does not need to.

The single most important thing to understand is that the client is a different thing than the project. The client from bitcoin.org is written by some dudes for themselves and others who like it that way.

If you want it in a different way, pay somebody to write a different client. Everybody welcomes that client to take part in the Bitcoin network!

That is not true. Any open source project has plenty of work for people that aren't coders - including support and documentation issues. Hell, most large projects like Drupal are flush with coders but begging for people to go back and re-write documentation that hasn't been updated in 2 or 3 years, etc. And devs can only work on what they know  about. Filing bug reports and feature requests and having those commented on by other users is also very important.

I would agree with the OP to some extent. Security however is traditionally provided by banks, and I've already noticed some activity in this direction.

Elitism obviously isn't going to help the system take off. Especially when you consider that probably the most fertile ground for a new currency would be where the national currency has already failed. These places would not tend to have many Unix L33ts. In africa it is relatively common to use phone airtime credit as currency and the mobile providers have provided services supporting this activity, making it easier to transfer credit between sim cards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa

Bitcoin needs to be that easy. I have the feeling someone will be providing a service that will achieve this within a few months.

@chungy Many people use banks who have no idea what their policies mean if they had ever read any of them. Indeed many people use banks who don't even understand the basics. I've known people who treat a credit card as if it were their current account balance.

Also I totally agree with OP with all points, but I also agree that making it clear(er) that we are essentially in very early dev phase of bitcoin would be good. There seem to be the pull on the one hand with sites like "we use coins" to make it seem like bitcoin is Here! Now! Ready! and Easy to Use! to encourage widespread adoption, and then on the other hand we have people saying, wait! we are still working on some pretty basic scalability and security issues - use at your own risk.

Now those may just be two different opinions, but they are pretty large differences, and I think that the community should be better at communicated the risks of currently using bitcoins, not just being evangelical in talking about its benefits.

But windows is for fags and always has been...

everyone knows that.

+1
The project is still in its early stages. Development is very active, and thus it's a good thing to suggest features. I agree elitism has no point there, or being defensive, ideas should simply be acknowledged (which is what I try to do).

On the other hand, as a developer I can understand the other side of the "coin" as well. People become annoyed if the 1000th person creates an account on this forums and thinks he has a completely original idea by proposing wallet encryption, even though the developers are working hard on implementing it. Or makes yet another topic why bitcoin won't succeed. Or thinks its a CIA plot. And so on. If people haven't done their own research, a simple google query would do, then they can expect the replies to be a bit snarky.

Note that this is an open source project. No one is paid any money to provide help here.

BTW about victim blaming I agree 100%. It's annoying and tends to be very common especially in communities dealing with finance.

I agree.

I think updates have alot to do with it. Windows should do a better job at forcing people to update, and that right there would keep 95% of the computers hack proof. Windows is really good at patching hacks, especially ever since windows 7 came out. This is really their baby, and they are trying really hard to end this Windows hackers culture.

EDIT: And everyone on here should be on windows 7 or windows server 2008. If you are running XP or any older versions of windows, you deserve to get hacked. 

I agree about not blaming victims, elitism being inappropriate, and so forth.

There is also the separate, but utterly valid point, that Bitcoin is not for average computer users yet. When I see yet another person claiming to be hacked, besides skepticism, I only feel about 1/3 sympathy. The other 2/3 is along the lines of "sigh. another one who got in too early."

Perhaps we could gently steer new users away from the project, for a while? Maybe get a sticky that says something like "If you don't know what a hash is, it's a thing that has carnivorous money-eating dragons inside."

I think most of the people getting hacked are fairly good at computers, I just think they're careless lol. The people who think hashes are fairy dragons would never dare put their money into this lol.  :P

So, which are you, careless or inept?

I don't mind 'victims'. They increase the net worth of bitcoin by releasing their coins to others who know what to do with them. Consider it a 'stupidity tax' if you get hacked. Such is life on the internet.

Also, I'm not seeing enough "CRASH CRASH CRASH" and "Mt.Gox" threads, someone better get going on that.

I don't think most people consider it an original idea - they think it would make sense. And I've done the forum research, and have found posts about encrypting wallet.dat from last year! And posts arguing "encryption does not make it 100% safe either so why bother" from last year, too.

I'm aware that no encryption scheme would make wallet.dat entirely safe, but it would stop many drive-by-attacks. Like having a lock on your bicycle will prevent the drunk from taking it to go home and then sinking it in a lake.

Careless, even though my main box has never gotten hacked, and zero money has been stolen from me. All my shit is offline anyways ;) .

How exactly does using windows for mining threaten the security of the Bitcoin network?  This must have been intended as a joke.

I don't think he meant that only coders can help the project, but rather that in a FLOSS project you don't get to complain as if you were a client, what's very true. You're not a costumer, you're getting it for free. If you want something better, either contribute to it directly or convince/hire someone to do it for you.

Good feedback is always welcome by any reasonable person, but it is true that many people think devs here are at their service, complaining as if they were on the costumers line of some service they're paying for.

Windows 7 is actually light years ahead of earlier versions in terms of stability and security. At least people should upgrade.

Ok so if I were to have say a dedicated mining rig running windows - and lets say that rig is compromised by some attacker...  What threat does that create for the Bitcoin network?  He or she can now do what?  Well they could stop my miner, or better yet, they could point it at their own worker account on some pool and get some free mining at my expense.  Mybe they could use the compromised PC to attempt to attack other devices on the same local network, use it to send spam, etc..  How does the fact that I used a windows operating system on a mining rig threaten the Bitcoin network?  I am just trying to understand.

I don't think its fair to blame windows system's for the ineptitude of its users. If they just keep their system up to date and have the common sense to refrain from downloading 20_free_happy_kitten_emoticons.exe then windows is fine for Bitcoin. Just wait until someone builds a wallet sealer for Mac! Oh the profits they will reap, and that's a BSD based system!

Linux's biggest advantage in security is that it's a small user base (relative to windows and mac) which is further divided between distributions. Plus, being a less popular system that only became readily available to the average computer illiterate Joe in the past couple of years, a large part of the user base is to advanced to fall for simple tricks. Leaving attackers with a very tiny target that simply isn't worth the effort while windows and mac exist.


PS: I love your avatar. Praise Bob!

Just because Windows is a larger target then Linux doesn't make Linux invulnerable.  It seems irresponsible to suggest that the solution to the world's security woes is to just use Linux.

I respect the fact that many of you love Linux.  But don't be upset if I decide to use Windows.  I know how to properly setup and secure a Windows system but I don't know how to do the same with Linux.  I am 100% certain that if I switched to Linux I would have a more vulnerable system.

I think the best thing to tell people is somthing like this:  While Windows is certainly a larger target, Linux is not free of vulnerabilities so whatever you use, make sure you know how to use it, and secure it.  Otherwise find someone you trust that does.

For whats it's worth to you guys, all my mining is done on windows 7 latest updates put in, running on ultra low graphics enhancements. I am getting beautiful hash rates, I really think that windows is way better for mining. Thats just my personal opinion, if you think linux is better than please explain why.

I have 4 dedicated Windows 7 mining rigs.  They are on their own separate network behind a firewall which blocks all incoming access and is configured to allow outbound access only to a small list of sites (basically just the various mining pools & windows update).  I don't see how my choice of operating system is a threat to the Bitcoin network, but I am willing to be enlightened.

Windows is NOT insecure, stop saying bullshits

If you are an idiot you will end up installing viruses in a linux or mac computer too, is it linux or mac insecure then?

I use windows and no problems since ages, probably even before Windows XP. And Windows 7 rule.

Quoted for truth, and to point out how "hilarious" it is that this thread degnerated into an OS war...

Then it's people fault, NOT Windows fault  ::)

Closed source vs Open source has nothing to do with Windows' insecurities. The fact is that for over a decade now they've consistently chosen a simple user experience over a working privilege separation model, and that's the second biggest contributor to their insecurities. The first is merely the common practices of their users.

If you had the same level of idiocy using Linux as does Windows, your Bitcoins are not safe on Linux either. Linux has functional privilege separation for sure, but if you honestly think there aren't local-root 0-days out there, and that they're not for sale, and that someone with a plan to effortlessly steal lots of electronic currency with almost no chance of it forcibly being taken back wouldn't invest in such a 0-day, you're delusional. That's taking into account that Linux bitcoin users are even running their Bitcoin client in a separate user context than their everyday web browser... show of hands please?

Linux is "secure", but it's not idiot-proof.

Most of the software I use comes from the distro repository so I'm pretty unlikely to install a virus that way, whereas windows users are used to just downloading and installing an exe.  That's not good practice, really.  It IS safer, stop saying 'bullshits'.

I use linux as much as possible, but sometimes I have to edit a word document in the native MS app.  It's a hegemony, should I have to pay for that?  Well most people I know didn't pay for MS Office for their home PC, they pirated it.   Another vulnerability.  Nobody is going to get a virus from a pirated LibreOffice, cos it's free!  It IS safer, stop saying 'bullshits'.

Stop this OS war!

We all know Bitcoin would be safer on a Lisp machine!  ;D

*throws down COBOL client*

What?!!! How DARE YOU.

So are there any Bitcoin related Emacs extensions or Vim scripts yet?

...and they would exist because?

this is one weird-ass minutae. I wonder if a turnip has grown in the shape of a bitcoin symbol yet?

Bullshit, if people install viruses and use infected pirated shit is not Microsoft fault. And is not related to Windows being unsecure.

I have an original and updated Windows 7 and i do not install infected shit, i am not less secure than linux

Windows is a huge target, there's already a dedicated bitcoin stealing trojan for it - look at the people who's wallets were stolen! Linux and Mac ARE more secure for that reason alone.

I wonder how ppl can get infected by that trojan  ::) Maybe "instal->next->next->yes->accept" ;D

Not being a target sound a lot like "security through obscurity", you are not safe, but no one look for you so you are not in danger... until someone start looking for you and then you are fucked because you aren't used to fight attacks everyday

Linux users lie if they say they have never done this: log in as root and 'make install' on something you just downloaded.

sudo make me a sandwich

Adding to the OS war, it could be that many users are running pirate copies of W7 and don't get updates.  Linux is "free" by comparison and some who have more time to spend learning two or more OS prefer the flexibility.  I know lots of people who like Linux because of the front end (like gnome) and it makes it like a windows computer - they couldn't use Linux it they tried.

As for the elitist crap that swirls around - there is heaps.   May as well start a Mac vs PC war as well.

It was a joke linking the OS war and the lisp comments above my post with the vi vs emacs holy wars.

I'm glad you wrote while agitated, everything in this post is something that needed to be said, especially the part I quoted.  Well done.

pffft.

i don't use a roofing hammer to put a picture-frame hook into wallboard.

there's no real elitism that i can see - just a certain amount of vocal practicality.

i would never recommend that a musician or graphic artist use anything but a MacOS.

likewise, i would hardly suggest anything but Windows to a serious gamer.

and - whether one cares to admit it or not - when dealing with either the security requirements of large sums of computerized money or the computational overkill of mining, i can't imagine using anything but some flavor of *nix.

and now, if you will all excuse me, i'm going to go mix up a margarita for lunch with the squirrel-cage fan in one of my reference 5870s...

http://www.theonion.com/video/autistic-reporter-train-thankfully-unharmed-in-cra,20098/ (http://www.theonion.com/video/autistic-reporter-train-thankfully-unharmed-in-cra,20098/)

I was thinking this morning:
"Man, I'd like an emacs extension! I would be able to hide my wallet.dat in any file I want, on the fly!"
Sadly I don't know enough about C to do the same thing efficiently.  :'(

In addition, this would be supported on every OS.

This proves Lisp is the way to go.  ;D

That's a fair reply and I am humbled.

Except that on Windows you have hundreds of third party apps that you have to keep up do date. Most viruses came via Flash, JVM etc.

You can take over many mining machines and reverse transactions.

It is protected against the internet, but not against the internal net. The firewall machines can be taken over first.

I used to work as an engineer in the automotive industry and I'd love to do a design where your engine cylinders shoots out thru the dashboard into your skull because you were too 'stupid to notice your engine timing was dangerously off'

Then when it happened blame the soccer mom driving.. oh wait but we intend to have an economy without women right? I  mean women dont buy things righ?

If anyone claims that Bitcoin is somehow associated with Linux, remind them that Bitcoin was originally developed on Windows, and the first version was Windows-only with no command-line at all.

Ah, but that sort of attitude got us the useless "Check Engine" light. (And Microsoft Windows, which is full of "Check Engine" lights, AND randomly shoots engine cylinders into your skull.) There has to be somewhere to meet in the middle?

As for Bitcoin, you certainly don't hand your prototypes to a random soccer mom off the street, right? At least not outside of carefully controlled studies. Bitcoin is barely past the prototype stage as-is, and the press got hold of it long before it was really ready. The result has been Bitcoin's last four or five months of history. What would happen if Motor Trend or Car & Driver laid hands on your prototype?

Speaking of Asperger's: http://www.theonion.com/articles/bill-gates-grants-self-18-dexterity-20-charisma,837/


The ideas that drive Bitcoin have decidedly more affinity with the ideas behind Linux than Windows though.


I don't think anyone claimed that. Lots of Linux users don't even remember the root password BTW, and use sudo instead. Which is not quite the same as running as root, or Administrator as it may be. And most Linux users will use the official, signed repositories to install software from.


The mindset is. Look beyond the product and see the motives driving it. The fundamental difference between Microsoft and something like Linux will not only have influence on the product and how it behaves (Linux lets you do anything, Microsoft views their customers as the enemy (DRM)), but ultimately the mindset of the user as well. Think of the generic response to bullshit copy protection that makes it impossible to play the game you paid for: piracy. This devalues everything in the Windows world and instills a throwaway culture that is destructive in every sense, including security. Rocketfella illustrates above: "If your account gets cracked and is used for spam, you can create another email address and continue with what it's about: communication." - "Well, computers get slower over time, I just have to buy a new one or hand mine over to my neighborhood geek to fix it". Also, it doesn't matter if their HDD breaks. They don't have backups, but the files on their computer weren't important to them anyways and all their important holiday photos are on facebook anyways. - Incidentally, Facebook just threw away a whole bunch of user photos because they were uploaded by some third party software that got too many dislikes (the pictures that were uploaded through them, not the software..).

Windows apologists should realize that Microsoft is the Federal Reserve of computing and just maybe they don't deserve to be supported. Same goes for Facebook but that's another story. In practical terms Windows may finally be getting more secure technically, but the business model invariably taints the user which eventually results in diminished security.

I'm not advocating people use Linux for 'over 9000 security!', but simply because in the long run humanity is better off with it than with Windows.