Bitcoin Forum

Source https://www.coindesk.com/real-bubble-billionaire-warren-buffett-doubles-bitcoin-doubt/ (https://www.coindesk.com/real-bubble-billionaire-warren-buffett-doubles-bitcoin-doubt/)

My take on it is that bitcoin is a bubble just like any other currency, it is not backed by anything except for expectations, however the bubble is very very hard to burst, it takes some major failure for peoples expectations to change to zero. The dollar isn't a value producing asset either, its only value is to facilitate transactions, much like bitcoin.

Hmmmm im no sure about this one.
It depends on the definition of a bubble.
Anything in life can be in a bubble, property, stock market, trading cards, collectibles, cars,
And all of the above have been in bubbles at some point.
The only thing about crypto is obviously there is nothing physical so it is easier to call it a bubble

Based on my own understanding about the definition of  bubble is that everything has an end, everything will be vanish. Everything that we had will not stay forever. Like what we have now, at some point everything will be lost. Like bitcoin we all know that bitcoin will not be permanent time comes that it will last but as long as bitcoin help as we should treasure everything coz we know in our life that bitcoin change many things, it help us to have an extra income for better life. It helps those person who have nothing. It give chances to others to have a better future.

I think the general notion of a bubble is something that can burst, but it's very possible that it can come back to reality. With the dot com crash in 1999, there was a bubble in terms of the amounts of companies that were given a lost of money and were told to grow to the size of Microsoft. Out of that, many companies failed, yes, but a few did survive and they are doing well now. Currently, the stock market is doing alright because of the lack of steady additions of companies.

I believe, bitcoin is not entirely a bubble. It certainly shows some characteristic of a bubble to the mass, however, if you calculate the investments running behind it, will clear the doubt. First of all bitcoin is treated as currency to a major chunk of investors. It is just a store of value for them. They see profit in it and investing in it. The acceptability is still an issue you will hardly see any merchant accepting bitcoin. So bitcoin is a great investment asset to many people which makes it a strong crypto and not a mare bubble.

Warren Buffett said "You can’t value bitcoin because it’s not a value-producing asset." and he is very smart investor. But in my opinion it depends on bitcoin's future. If more retailers will accept bitcoin then it is not a bubble because you will be able to buy something for bitcoins.
The second possibility is that bitcoin won't be accepted by more retailers and even stop by some goverments or something else. Then we will be able to say that the blockchain was a pretty dream.

All the OP's listed factors have nothing to do with whether it's in a bubble or not. It can have the same things whether the price is soaring or in the toilet.

A bubble is a rapid escalation in price followed by a contraction. It's very possible the price could fall back to $3000 or less. It's pretty much had an unbridled run up to beyond $6000. Let's wait and see but I wouldn't be surprised if it falls a lengthy way from here for a while at least.

The reasons you give are really accurate, but we can not be negative, in part, bitcoin is like a bubble when bitcoin users get a profit, and that profit originated from later arrivals.

I like the above comments in general. Bitcoin -  bubble or not, has continue to influence the daily life of so many people already. It touches lives in so many ways that you can't imagine that a digital currency can do to the way of living of an ordinary person or to how people think towards things.

Let's just enjoy this era of being in the digital world, that everything is possible. We just need to be grateful what the digital technology brings to our table.

In my opinion, Bitcoin Bubble: Yes. Speculators make price increasing day by day. 6 months of 2017 from May, the price increasing, maybe of this reason
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/6-factors-pushing-bitcoin-price-2017/
1 Bitcoin now ~ 5 oz Gold... lolz

It's not value producing asset then what do you call USD and some national currency and fiat moneys? is that also a piece of paper that is useless and not producing asset? barter trade and some traditional trades is not common practice because the goods and raw materials can be rotten by the time that's why they come up with the currencies or money it just like them without physical representation. Now is bitcoin a bubble? maybe in the future but not today.

People often criticize what they do not understand. Is bitcoin a bubble? I would say no, because there is an actual product that is deemed valuable, albeit, by the minority. No amount of calling it names, regulation etc will stop the upward trend, at least for now.

None of these can be reasons why Bitcoin isn't a bubble because none of these are characteristics that can stop a bubble.

An investment bubble can absolutely apply to legal tender

Merchant adoption (any adoption) is one of the key drivers of a bubble, the more people who want something the more the price rises.

Bitcoin supply, scarcity, helps drive adoption or demand.

acceptance of bitcoin on some many country for now is a indication of bitcoin is not a bubble, so many people are relying in this bitcoin now, i think the assets that Warren Buffett mentioning are the assets that supporting bitcoin (like big shares company) which bitcoin not have. Warren Buffett didnt realize that the assets of this bitcoin is US who continue support bitcoin what ever it takes in the future. that was only my opinion.

If it is true that "non-value producting assets" can't be priced, one might wonder how precious metals like gold or silver are priced. Price relative to earnings (P/E ratio) is commonly cited as the most valuable pricing metric in equities trading. It would be interesting to know what the best pricing method for precious metals has been for a historical perspective. That could be a topic to research.

I like Buffett's comment, its a very good point. Buffett has made interesting comments on gold in the past.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2dslmpi.jpg

None of those reasons you gave matter; bitcoin could still very much be in a
bubble.  Especially the legal tender part.  That's completely irrelevant.  Do you
think that and the other points are any sort of guarantee that the price won't
crash back to $1000 or lower tomorrow?  I would say 'no'.

It's very common with asset inflation bubbles that people come up with all
sorts of reasons as to why a particular asset isn't in a bubble.  Then it pops,
and everyone realizes (with 20/20 hindsight) that they were wrong.  And I hope
I'm wrong.  I'd love some slow, steady growth all the way up to $100K.

Warren Buffett say

So does our currency before because when you look at it it's just literally a piece of special paper with some drawings and pictures of it. People keep on supporting bitcoin because they/we see that it has a  potentials just like with our money now. That's why bitcoin value is growing and increasing.

what are the merchant websites support bitcoin payment ?

Itnis likely a bubble but i don't see that bubble popping anytime soon. It's probably going to take years before that happens and between now and that time, it would have made a lot of difference is people's lives and may even find itself stabilizing.

Bitcoin is not a bubble because it's major adoption just gets bigger then time flies.

I think it's a misleading statement to say that Japan is now accepting bitcoin as a legal tender, they recognize it as a sort of payment or as a currency, but the difference from the current state to a legal tender is pretty much big.

Legal tender means that you can pay with the currency(bitcoin in this case) in every store in the country(it has to accept it by law enforcement), it also says that the government must accept the currency from you to pay for taxes and other bills.

I totally agree with you on this topic. I don't care what Waren Buffet says and I don't believe he was saying the truth. He's probably making FUD and buying more bitcoins at the moment with cheap prices. That's how they make money.

bubble or not, it doent matter to know, after all you've always think that bitcoin is a bubble, youll always doubting in bitcoin which is not usual to think. bitcoin already prove it self in all of us, so why doubt always exist on us? from the past 6 years bitcoin improves it self and reach at this point without asking you to support which you did after all. just continue in bitcoin and don't ask other to make them confuse on what do they believe before.

Bitcoin is not a bubble.It has gained this price value slowly over the last eight years.Its price rise is mainly due to its limited supply and its secured nature and decentralized nature making it completely out of the reach of government controls.

It has already crossed many critical situations successfully and it deserves this price and more price rise too.It has made transaction of very large amounts at very low features.

Bitcoin has more features for which people keep trust in it and buy at higher prices.It is not just a speculative investment.

Bitcoin is neither a bubble nor a tulipomania.

plenty of people used to say this kind of words since before that bitcoin is a bubble, and since then they keep on criticizing bitcoins credibility, and up until now there isn't stop to it, and for how many times bitcoin has prove it that it wasn't a bubble.

I can't with 100% certainty to say that bitcoin isn't a bubble. He really has the signs of a bubble, but it seems to me that the dollar is more likely to burst than bitcoin. Look closely on the dollar. He has all the signs of a bubble. Just Warren Buffett used to work with corrupt politicians and the world's Fiat it is easier to navigate.

Despite everything it's been through, bitcoin remains to be resilient and strong - it has survived all throughout those forks and FUDs and these are the reasons why I agree and continue to firmly believe that bitcoin is not a bubble, otherwise it should have collapsed and seized growing. Instead, it still continues to grow and become adopted in other countries. I believe that bitcoin has the potential to grow even more for the incoming years.

If you ask me, I think that bitcoin IS a bubble, at least, for the time being. But I still can't agree with Warren Buffett because bitcoin does produce value but surely not in the way Buffett thinks. It is speculative value, just like with any other bubble out there, but if it makes you richer, how can you not call it value? As an aside, bitcoin is not accepted as legal tender in Japan. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but bitcoin is only accepted as a foreign currency there like, for example, the American dollar or the Euro.

These are two big and essential differences.

And the earlier they started seeing it as the technology that would change the future, the better for them rather than calling it whatever they like. I feel most of them are just trying to take their chances, and I am pretty sure as much as they are calling it bubble, they are buying in, but their normal senses would not want it to work knowing it is against how they have always done things.
Bitcoin has value and that is a value that can surpass even their own imagination, over time, they will get to accept that fact and obviously nothing will stop it from growing and in few years time, we will quote them and ask if they are still ignorant or they still want to keep calling it bubble when bitcoin has become a normal part of our lives and the way we spend.

BTC is a bubble or even a ponzi because you need 2 things for it to grow. New users and trust. For the value to grow you need users to keep coming to BTC , increase demand and value. But that´s not the point. The point is weather people will keep trusting BTC to act as a currency or keep trusting it to act as na asset. If they maintain trust, price will keep going and wont dive, so no bubble, if confidence and trust are gone the bubble pops and afterwards some people can scream and shout i told you so...

Thank you so much. These guys really know the truth and we all know the reason why bitcoin is growing fast is because some totally believe in the value it holds and some possibly took it for an asset but does that stop bitcoin from not having its value ?

These guys have found out apparently that they underrated the fact that bitcoin would grow to this extent. They never believed in it, knowing it is coming to disrupt the way they have been doing things, manipulating and all, and then they tried everything possible to stop it and then it keeps on growing and so sorry for them it is the way it is going to be whatever name they want to give it.

Few years time, they should still come back to see if bitcoin is a bubble or not when merchants and stores have started accepting it as a form of payment.

It is true that bitcoin is not value producing but it is the same with national currencies isn't it? Therefore currencies transcends the essence of a bubble. You cannot call a real currency bubble because there is a real demand for it and btc is slowly becoming a legit, bonafide virtual currency as day pas by. Before we call btc a bubble, we must always rember that btc is created in the first place to be a virtual currency, not as a ponzi scheme so whenever price goes down it is just normal because it ain't an asset, it is a currency the same with fiat currencies.

The question is rather simple. Do people use bitcoin that frequently and in that many places that it should be worth almost $6000 per coin? I mean, I don't see many shops, restaurants or general services and places accepting bitcoin widely. I don't even see many people buying things with bitcoin. The demand is high not because everyone wants to use it and needs it in their everyday lives. The demand is high, because everyone expects the price to grow. And why would the price grow if bitcoin is not being used? Everyone just buys more and more and stores it in their wallet. It supposed to be a currency, something usable in our everyday lives. Bitcoin is worth these $6000 not because it's so great and used by everyone, but only because people believe it will give them profits. It's pure speculation, no actual usage.

You seem to have put everything right, and I have to mostly agree with you. Nevertheless, there are still a few other points which are worth raising. For example, it could be said that bitcoin is still an early bird, and its current speculative growth is something which is sort of unavoidable. Maybe, it will correct heavily due to speculation going down one day, but it is still a pretty decent payment system, and when bitcoin gets despeculated at the end of the day with its price stabilizing, it may take up as a genuine currency finally.

Besides, for most people there are no other options currently available where they could invest their hard earned money in. Bank deposit rates are ridiculous while fiat currencies are depreciating constantly. And bitcoin may come in quite handy as a sort of safe haven to these people.

Whether it is a bubble or not, but people use it and they love it. It brings happiness to people in the form of profits over the time, and that is what matters for everyone including me. I don't know if Bitcoin will always stay or not, but i know that as long as it is there, i won't stop using it because it's giving me a reason to be happy in my life. I have never earned any money in my life before Bitcoin, and today, i have money, much money, that i never dreamed of having at this age, and i'm thankful to Bitcoin for that. I don't care for what people say, i just care for what i feel and what i believe, and i don't believe it is a Bubble.

bitcoin is not a bubble.

but it has a lot of bubbles that burst and correct in time. the thing is, we should look at bubbles in bitcoin in a different way. they are not always a huge thing that needs to burst and drop to an extremely low price. a bubble can be small too and the correction of it also will be small.

people who talk about bitcoin bubbles, always forget the big drops that bitcoin had so far. they are right there on the charts! each big dip which looks like a valley.

You are too optimistic. If you use the logic that bitcoin is very similar to bubble. The idea of bitcoin is very good, but the users themselves are to blame for that turns him in a bubble. As an investment bitcoin is not intended now. he is growing too fast in price. Business needs cheap and long money. As currency bitcoin is also not suitable because users are reluctant to part with their coins and try to protect them. The price is very high for small transactions also does not develop bitcoin as a currency.

Currently, Bitcoin is receiving so much attention than what it used to be in the past few years.
So many people are now turning to Bitcoin.
So, it's not a bubble.

Those who say bitcoin is a bubble clearly don't understand it. If you just look at the price without understanding the true value of bitcoin, then of course you will think it's a bubble. If we look at it's price charts, they definitely look like charts from a bubble market. Recently just adding the name blockchain to it's company name, it's enough reason for that company's shares to rise, and that is bubble behavior as well, and it reassembles to the dotcom mania.

To be honest this worries me a bit. I don't think bitcoin is a bubble, but I'm worried because I'm sure that there are a lot of investors entering the market because they see bitcoin as a bubble and as a way to make money. If they don't believe in BTC true value and use, then they will eventually cash out for profit and that could hurt BTC.

Bitcoin is not bubble, if you expect it will be the most powerful real word payment system. There are only 21M bitcoins in total, so the total capitalisation is depending only on cost of token. And ahe current cap of $100B is still relatively small in % to fiat currencies.

Legal tender shouldnt really be used on this one because if we do talk legal tender then it is somehow already replacing its own fiat currency which isnt really happening on the current situation of Japan.They did only accept and adopt bitcoin as an alternative new way payment system but not totally replacing their own fiat. Bitcoin isnt a bubble it  might crash but not today for sure. 8)

Bitcoin is not a bubble, before when I'm not oriented about the bitcoin ecosystem and economy of a country I really don't know what bitcoin is. But after studying some sort of time and figuring out what bitcoin is. We all can say that it is just the product of the law of supply and demand. Bitcoin has been on the trend for this year and that's why it's demand is getting higher so the price is.

Like any asset that holds value, bitcoin can, has, and will be involved in bubbles, because it's value today is derived from the expected value of value in the future, which is uncertain and therefore responds to changes in beliefs. Sometimes those changes can be very large and happen very quickly.

So CAN bitcoin be a bubble? Of course. IS bitcoin a bubble? Of course not. It was always have some value going forward. Is it a bubble RIGHT NOW? I don't know, but I don't think so. It's volatility doesn't shock me. I expect that in the near future, bitcoin could very well be worth less than it is now and in the longer term future, I expect bitcoin to be worth more than it is now.

No i don't think Bitcoin is bubble , cause when the supplies are limited and the needs is increasing day by day. So following to the logics. The Price of Bitcoin will raise .

What you have said about Bitcoin being a legal tender is not true it does not mean that Japan and the Philippines are accepting Bitcoin automatically counts as a legal tender, yes they are accepted but it cannot replace the position of the country's own respective fiat currencies in legal terms negotiable instruments should be paid in the country's recognized fiat currency. Bitcoin is a bubble and there is no doubt about it. One good reason why it is a bubble is that Bitcoin does not have any fair market value we don't even know if Bitcoin is fairly price or not.

I dont think bitcoin is a bubble. A Bubble dont just pop. Despite from the fact that it has its own volatility but it doesnt end there. Bitcoin will continue to grow and will be strong in the upcoming years. We just need to support and believe in bitcoin.

Bitcoin till this day is still just a speculative investment option for a lot people here, and thus will its market mirror that, which basically means that some times the price is way overbought, and some times way oversold. People ride the volatility and adjust their mood based on that, and having the great potential of Bitcoin in mind, you can't exactly put the blame on people for that.

As I mentioned before, people see Bitcoin largely as a speculative investment option, and a damn pretty good one. People don't want to spend their $1000 Bitcoin to see that almost one year later, that Bitcoin has increased to a value of $6000. I can't blame them for that, because honestly speaking, that's not exactly giving me any incentive to spend again.

I think that Lightning Network will offer people a far better form of usability when it comes to the currency aspect, but we will likely always have to deal with the volatility, which on its own, will always form an obstacle to use Bitcoin as solid currency.

I think all currencies are bubbles. It depends on how you defined bubbles. Everything in this life is bubble. Physical money is also bubble. You have it today in big amount and because of carelessness you can lost it tomorrow. Everything puffed off. Nothing is permanent but bitcoin though they call it bubble, it still continue to grow a big bubble and still not puffing off. Thanks to this bubble.

It is not right I don’t agree with this. Who said this foolish thing, because I think these people do not see the people who are investing in bitcoin in such a large capacity and the market cap of bitcoin is increasing day by day. Bitcoin is the future currency of the world how can it be vanished in the air? It is not possible for anybody in the world to erase bitcoin from the page of the future because it is not only the currency but also a business.

And what, to you, is the true value of bitcoin? People ride it to make more money off it. They don't particularly care if it gets used as a currency or not. Even though such use would surely add to its popularity and through this to its price. If you think that it is the currency aspect of it, you'd better look at other coins then which are a lot more advanced specifically as currencies. For example, many altcoins aim at providing instantly fast and cheap transactions, which is sort of must-have for a currency nowadays.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is like a dinosaur if we compare it to these coins.

This is one man that never believed in technology anyway and has always preferred the traditional way.
Personally, I would not even want any of these guys to join the train anytime soon, so we can end up giving it to them at a much higher value once they realized it is not a bubble after all. I am not surprised they will keep trying their best to attack it and call it names, but I guess we just leave time to tell the rest of the story.

I'm not even sure I would like these guys to enter bitcoin at all. Just as CME Group announces Futures Trading of bitcoin, it's price skyrockets and we just keep seeing new ATHs. It is official now, the Wall Strees guys will enter the market. This will be great to the increase of price of bitcoin, since more and more fiat will enter into the crypto market, but these guys are here to make money, and not to use bitcoin. For better or for worse this is happening, let's see how BTC handles this.

I don't know if bubble is the right word but BTC will remain the strongest for a long time yet I reckon. However, does this mean forever? Absolutely not. Crypto is still SO new, who knows what will happen in 10 years time.

In terms of right now, this past month though - I reckon we're in a bubble and the BTC crash will happen soon.
(At least I hope so for the sake of my poor alts!)  ;D

When it's going up, they say it's volatile. When it's going down, then BTC becomes uncertain. Arguments at convenience.

Exactly, it all balls down to support and if everyone supporting it sees the value as it is, I do not see how that makes it a bubble. The fact is bitcoin surpasses just holding as an asset without no point of holding.

It has so much value that I am surprised most of these guys cannot see and whether they are deliberately not seeing it cause they cannot control it or they just want to remain ignorant and find out how it works... then that is their luck. Few years to come, I believe a lot would have changed in their orientation.

By 2040 no one will look at it as a bubble, but i am afraid that in the future too large quantities will have units to promote its development to whole population.

Japan and Philippine will progress more as compare to world because they are maturing themselves as according to the modern age and as bitcoin has entered their region there will be more economic stability for them and bitcoin is not the bubble dude it has given a lot to the people and bitcoin has market and the common investor is its ambassador and it will remain at the throne of world currency till the end,

Actually bitcoin itself is blockchain database, new finance way, new technology... you name it. But exchange rate is a bubble, that grows because of huge demand for evolution of world financial system that is outdated, and second because of shortage and limited quantity of bitcoins, that are used for illegal financial operations.

Why do you support fakes of the government and the bankers? They are afraid of competition with bitcoin and so there are rumours that bitcoins are used for illegal purposes. Give me one example of what bitcoin is massively used for illegal transactions. It is not. Even if it is then it is the duty of law enforcement to fight crime. Before the advent of bitcoin was not illegal transactions? Lol! Let ban Fiat.

following your arguments yes it is, with low volume of supply if this new financial currency can really rise up so quickly with numbers of players which
dealing of hiding their participation the reason why its still possible that things happen is just a bubble but i think after some adoptions and gaining
polarities bitcoin might have a good future.

Definetly it's a bubble. But american economy it's also a bubble but it has been working for decades and who knows, maybe for ages, so we can't predict 100% the end of the bubble, all we can do right now is use it in our purposes.

I think that at the moment we are in bubble. Because there are too many new people that expect to get rich from Bitcoin, by doing nothing. So there are more buyers, and low number of consumers. Most of people buy Bitcoin to hold them, and that is busting price. It is not hard to imagine what will happen when people stop buying Bitcoin. Because of that I think that we are in a bubble now. But on the other hand more and more countries accept Bitcoin as legal way of paying, which is great. Because that will make Bitcoin moving forward.

Of course no  :) Bitcoin is not a bubble, it is a new era of opportunities, like internet was.

Yes it is a bubble but a very long one because the price is stable and bitcoin already graduated from volatility and even countries, institutional business and already accepted and the large amount of merchants has adapted bitcoin for their online and offline business. Who knows if this bubble pops up o r continue no one can accurately predict but one thing's for sure the price value will continue rise and make us profit.

Point about bitcoin being accepted in Japan and Indonesia does not mean it is a legal tender in those countries is correct. However it is easy to see the bitcoin growth as a bubble. We normally tend to see enormous growth of asset without any plausible reason as bubble. However growth of the bitcoin is not linear one. It is not of parabolic in nature. Thus more users from multiple countries continue to join the bitcoin the prices will increase in parabolic manner and not in the linear fashion. Thus rapid growth of the bitcoin at this stage is not entirely a bubble in formation.

The people calling bitcoin is a bubble or going to die clearly have no or little understanding at what they are witnessing. This is such a big project that literally nobody without massive vision can understand it, at least this is

what I think and feel most days. I say this because not since the double entry book keeping system has their been such a revolutionary change to the financial industry. Seeing how this was back in the 1400s and nobody was

alive to witness such events hard to call this change and see it for what it is. Now I am not saying bitcoin can only go up and it wont crash but rather that even I, or anybody can accurately say what is going to happen we are

in uncharted territory and that is what makes this journey so fun!

Guess only time will tell after all. Certainly, most people today are really into bitcoin because they consider it as a digital asset and then some do not even understand the value it holds. However, that does not mean that as time goes on, they won't keep understanding the main value that bitcoin has to offer and support will keep growing stronger.

Bubble or not will never stop bitcoin from growing, it is just the way it has been designed and none of them can ever be able to control it whether they call it bubble or not.

Bitcoin is not a bubble only they’re mouths bubbled in making negative comments about bitcoin. If it is a bubble and they can foresee it would happen, they can answer this question. When? How? Or even a simple question are you sure? Because if they can’t even answer a futuristic question how would they know what will happen in those days that we don’t know if we still be living.

As what a logical man always say, let them believe what they want to believe and let us profit for they’re ignorance.

You are right all the people are tuning to the bitcoin and it is not the bubble because as much as I know I have never seen the price of the bitcoins getting down now all the people are aware of the bitcoin and the bitcoin price was a bit low in the past but now almost the whole country is investing and they are of the bitcoin so I hope in the future bitcoin will prove it was to the bubble.

As I believe the price of the cue ball will only grow, as it settles in the people's wallets forever, it is due to the small transactions that hang for years in the wallet, plus the death of people who leave forever and take away the bitcoins

yes bitcoin is a buble currency. i think all digital crypto currency user know that. Anytime bitcoin can be disappear in just a second. thats why be wise in holding or buying bitcoin.

Had Btc being bubble it would have not survived for 10 years or so and it’s price would have being near zero had that being the case. But it isn’t not and still Btc is surveived means it is not a bubble  and has a very good scope in future .